Your Communication Protocol Can Make or Break Your Team’s Productivity - With Theresa M. Ward

In this engaging episode, Brian Nelson-Palmer interviews Theresa Ward, founder of Fiery Feather, who reveals how communication protocols can transform team productivity and effectiveness.

As a team effectiveness coach with experience across multiple industries, Theresa shares how structured systems combined with emotional intelligence create thriving workplaces.

The conversation explores practical steps for crafting and implementing a communication protocol, making this episode a must-listen for anyone looking to streamline communication and boost team efficiency.

For more information, or a template to copy, visit the blog post on this topic!

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The Video

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The Audio/Podcast

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References In This Episode

• Fiery Feather Website – fieryfeather.com (Theresa Ward’s consultancy on team effectiveness)

• Theresa Ward’s LinkedIn Profile – LinkedIn Profile

• Calendly (For scheduling without back-and-forth emails)

• Books and Concepts Referenced:

  • The One-Minute Manager by Ken Blanchard and Spencer Johnson (on leadership and productivity)

  • The Waterline Concept, from the book 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership by Jim Dethmer (on decision-making in organizations)

  • Patrick Lencioni’s Work (on leadership and team communication)

  • Dr. Elisabeth Kübler-Ross And The Five Stages of Grief®

  • David Allen's work (Getting Things Done methodology)

• Related Podcast Episode:

  • Breaking Your Team’s Success Barrier with Maura Thomas

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Episode Digest

How Communication Protocols Can Transform Your Team’s Productivity

In today’s fast-paced, technology-driven workplace, clear and effective communication is essential for productivity. Yet, many teams struggle with delays, misunderstandings, and unnecessary interruptions that hinder efficiency. A communication protocol—or situational communication guide—can help by establishing agreed-upon rules for when and how different types of communication should occur.

This structured approach doesn’t just streamline workflows; it also fosters better collaboration, reduces frustration, and minimizes wasted time. Whether your team operates remotely, in an office, or across multiple locations, having a shared set of communication agreements can eliminate guesswork and ensure everyone is aligned.

Why Communication Protocols Matter

Without clear communication guidelines, team members often experience confusion and inefficiency. Common workplace complaints such as, “I never got a response,” “I didn’t know this was urgent,” or “This meeting could have been an email” arise when there’s no structured way to handle different types of communication.

A communication protocol sets expectations for how team members should initiate, respond to, and escalate communication. It outlines which tools to use for different types of messages and clarifies how to handle urgent matters versus routine updates.

“A communication protocol is a shared set of agreements that guides how you initiate, respond to, and escalate communication—both through conversation and technology.”

With the rise of remote work and digital tools, workplace communication has become more fragmented. Some employees rely on Slack, while others prefer email or video calls. Without a clear agreement, messages can get lost, misinterpreted, or ignored.

A well-crafted communication protocol solves these issues by providing clear guidelines for when to use specific channels, how quickly to respond, and what qualifies as an emergency.

The Power of Communication Protocols in the Workplace

1. Establish a Clear Communication Protocol for Your Team

To ensure smooth collaboration, create a simple document that outlines how communication should flow within your team.

How to create a communication protocol:

• List all communication channels available to your team. Examples: Slack, Microsoft Teams, email, phone calls, in-person meetings, video meetings.

• Define the purpose of each channel. When should Slack be used instead of email? When is a phone call appropriate?

• Set response time expectations. For instance, Slack messages should be responded to within two hours, while emails can be answered within 24 hours.

• Determine escalation pathways. If someone doesn’t respond in the expected timeframe, what’s the next step?

This doesn’t need to be a complex policy—a simple shared Google Doc or internal wiki page is sufficient. The goal is to provide clarity and consistency in how messages are sent and received.

“If you don’t have a communication protocol for your team, you can create one—regardless of your position. Clear guidelines reduce frustration and improve efficiency.”

2. Balance Synchronous and Asynchronous Communication

One of the biggest challenges in team communication is knowing when real-time interaction is necessary versus when an asynchronous approach (where people respond on their own time) is more efficient.

Key Differences

• Synchronous communication (real-time): Phone calls, video meetings, in-person conversations. Best for urgent matters, brainstorming, and sensitive discussions that require emotional context.

• Asynchronous communication (delayed response): Email, Slack messages, recorded video updates. Best for updates that don’t require immediate action, documentation, or when working across different time zones.

A communication protocol should clarify which method to use in different situations. For example:

• Use Slack or Teams for quick check-ins and non-urgent questions.

• Use email for formal documentation or when a longer response is required.

• Use a meeting only when collaboration or discussion is necessary—otherwise, an email or Slack message may be more efficient.

• Use phone calls or video meetings when clarity, tone, or urgency is important.

“Asynchronous communication can boost efficiency, but there are times when a quick phone call can save hours of back-and-forth emails.”

3. Define What Constitutes an Urgent Matter

Many workplace frustrations stem from misunderstandings about urgency. What’s critical to one person might not be urgent to another.

To avoid miscommunication, your team’s protocol should define:

• What qualifies as an emergency. Example: “An urgent issue is anything that directly impacts client deliverables, system outages, or high-priority deadlines.”

• How to escalate an issue. Example: “If a Slack message goes unanswered in two hours, escalate to a phone call.”

• What NOT to interrupt people for. Example: “General questions that aren’t time-sensitive should be posted in a Slack thread, not sent as a direct message.”

By clearly defining these rules, teams prevent unnecessary stress and interruptions while ensuring urgent issues get addressed promptly.

“Instead of labeling something as ‘emergency vs. non-emergency,’ think of it as levels of escalation. Your team should know when and how to escalate communication without overusing urgent channels.”

4. Normalize Communication Protocols Beyond Your Team

A communication protocol isn’t just for internal teams—it can also apply to clients, external partners, and other departments.

For example, if you work with clients, you can create a mini communication guide that includes:

• Best ways to contact your team (e.g., “Email for non-urgent matters, phone for immediate issues”).

• Expected response times (e.g., “Replies within 24 hours on weekdays”).

• Escalation process for high-priority issues.

This ensures everyone involved knows what to expect, reducing frustration and improving overall efficiency.

5. Encourage Adoption and Accountability

A communication protocol is only effective if people actually follow it. To encourage adoption:

• Lead by example. Managers and team leaders should model the correct behavior.

• Make it easily accessible. Store the protocol in a shared drive or internal system where everyone can find it.

• Regularly review and refine. As teams grow and technology changes, revisit and update the protocol periodically.

• Offer feedback and course corrections. If someone repeatedly ignores the protocol, have a private conversation to reinforce expectations.

“A good leader is a ‘chief reminding officer’—repeating communication expectations until they become second nature for the team.”

Communication protocols are a simple yet powerful way to improve team efficiency, reduce miscommunication, and create a smoother workflow. By establishing clear guidelines, balancing synchronous and asynchronous communication, defining urgency, and ensuring accountability, teams can significantly enhance their productivity.

If your workplace struggles with slow response times, unnecessary meetings, or miscommunications, consider implementing a communication protocol—it may be the missing piece to a more effective and productive team.

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Chapters

03:45 Understanding Communication Protocols

07:45 The Importance of Communication Protocols

11:45 Asynchronous vs Synchronous Communication

15:51 Establishing Personal Communication Protocols

19:27 Emergency Communication Protocols

25:38 Empowering Communication in Crisis

26:25 Understanding the Waterline Concept

28:41 Communication Protocols with External Partners

29:28 Organizing Communication Protocols

30:14 Managing Non-Compliance with Protocols

32:57 The Importance of Praise and Criticism

36:32 Personal Communication Pet Peeves

40:51 The Purpose Behind Communication Protocols

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Today’s Guest

Theresa m. WarD

Team Effectiveness Coach & Founder of Fiery Feather

Theresa M. Ward is a team effectiveness coach and the founder of Fiery Feather, a consultancy dedicated to helping teams build strong systems and improve interpersonal intelligence. With over a decade of experience in the financial technology industry, she has worked in roles spanning sales, product innovation, and strategic training—gaining a deep understanding of what makes teams thrive.

Since launching Fiery Feather in 2017, Theresa has been known as her clients' Chief Momentum Officer, facilitating workshops and driving initiatives that create lasting organizational change. Her expertise extends across industries, including utilities, non-profit, media, hospitality, and healthcare, allowing her to bring a broad, human-centered perspective to team development.

Beyond her work, Theresa is a certified yoga instructor, avid book lover, and dedicated fur-mom. She finds balance outside of work through fly fishing in the North Georgia Mountains with her fiancé.

Connect with her at:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/theresa-m-ward/
Website: fieryfeather.com

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About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now train Productivity Gladiators to level up their careers. Graduates wield superpowers in time management, practical leadership, communication, & productivity. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!

“Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.”

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:06)

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer on this show. I share personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, we're talking about tips for your communication protocol, which can make or break you and your team's productivity. And with me on the show today is Theresa Ward, who's a team effectiveness coach and the founder

of fiery feathers. So, I'm going let you introduce yourself. Thanks so much for joining me on the show and talk about your connection with communication protocols.

Theresa M. Ward (00:35)

Love it. Thanks, Brian, for having me. I love right off the top all of your alliteration there, all of the great P words that have to do with productivity. And obviously you can tell I'm a fan of like memorable alliterative things as well. Like the sound, you're a fiery feather. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:46)

Fiery feather.

Exactly. Love it.

Theresa M. Ward (00:50)

Feather is a team

effectiveness consultancy. And what I think about the two pillars of team effectiveness, it's structured systems, you standard operating procedures, all of those really functional systems that help us be efficient and clear. But it's also that secondary pillar of the soft skills, interpersonal, emotional intelligence, how we interact with one another. So oftentimes I'll get called in by clients to help build a new

onboarding process or to help document some new project management checklist. And really what's happening is people aren't seeing each other. They're not asking questions. They're not developing empathy. And so the communication protocol,

or I kind of like to refer to it as a situational communication guide so it can soften it a little bit because it really should be more of a guide than like a policy. That is something that can help with both of those pillars. So I'm excited to talk more about it today.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:48)

fair and right.

Yes.

Makes perfect sense. So what what would you say makes you different from all those other people in the space?

Theresa M. Ward (02:01)

gosh, I love this space. I'm glad that the space is so big. I started my career in FinTech and within that singular industry, I did sales and I did product and I did innovation and I played a lot of different roles, but I always ended up doing the training in each of them. So really I am a passionate student about

experiential education, human psychology, adult learning theory. So I took those training and facilitation skills that I learned in one industry and picked them up and kind of said, can I apply these in a bunch of other spaces? And that's where I think I've been able to add value

And humans are humans everywhere. So I love being able to kind of translate these case studies and skills that I've learned in these different industries to, you know, just kind of the human population, because we all want the same things that work. We all get slowed down or bogged down by the same things that work. Whether you use Slack or you use Microsoft Teams, we all just want to be able to get in touch with each other, get a response and get on with our day, right?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:48)

Yeah.

Yes. And you know, oftentimes some industries use the tools different and or better than other industries. So if you stay in your silo, you might not get some of that good stuff that you kind of bring from all the different industries, which is cool.

Theresa M. Ward (03:18)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's true. I do think that there are industry norms that don't really get spoken out loud. And if you go from one health care to another health care to another health care, it's just kind of assumed that, yes, this is how everybody does it. But you throw in, you know, a media startup from Silicon Valley into a big hospital system in the Northeast and you're going to get some really fun disruption.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:46)

Absolutely. Well, let's talk about communication protocols then. And I like that you soften the language, but for the purposes of the episode today, let's say communication protocol, because ultimately these are the guide rails. It is the protocol that you're having people follow. And it's certainly a guide and somebody's not going to be fired if they don't follow the protocol. But at the same time, you do need that structure.

And so right off the bat, Theresa, just for those people who might not have heard this term, what is a communication protocol and why is it important for your productivity?

Theresa M. Ward (04:21)

The thing to know about a communication protocol, an effective, realistic communication protocol, is that it is a shared document.

A communication protocol is a set of agreements that is somewhat democratically determined, that guides how you initiate communication, how you respond to communication, and how you escalate communication using both your human voice or fingers and how you also use the technology platforms or the tech stack.

that's available to you and your organization.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:55)

So communication protocol, you have this agreement. What does that look like in practicality?

Theresa M. Ward (05:01)

It's really simple. honestly think it's a Word doc, Google doc, you know, maybe a basic spreadsheet, but don't get too many, too many columns going. Really, it's just kind of a table that in the first column, you have the technology platform. So for example, that might be Slack, that might be Microsoft Teams, that might be as specific as meetings in person, meetings on the phone.

meetings on video. So you've outlined all of the different communication channels that you have available to you. Email, of course, you all of those different things. And then in the second column, you've got the specifics of when and how to best use that specific communication platform. So I think if you end up with a Word doc that's got kind of a two column table, you've got maybe a few things at the top.

that outline, hey, here's how this was developed, here's who it's for, here's how to reference it or best use it. For example, it might be in situations like when a new employee gets onboarded, obviously, but it may also be impactful when you're starting a new project and you're gathering together a bunch of different folks from different departments who have not regularly communicated before. And then at the bottom of the table after you've kind of outlined everything,

There's always going to be disclaimers, exceptions to the rule. So yes, I agree. Let's call it a protocol, but know that there's always going to be these outliers. So good to acknowledge those instead of pretending they don't exist, I

Brian Nelson-Palmer (06:36)

Yeah. And why is this important? What difference does this make?

Theresa M. Ward (06:41)

Well, I will say that the times when I have seen this be most impactful is the times when you hear a team starting to make a lot of excuses and the excuses seem to be based on responsiveness or there's like a sense of blame about, well, I couldn't deliver that on time because I couldn't get a hold of Tommy or

I just went ahead and reached out to the client because so-and-so never responded to my Slack message those types of things. So if you start to see a pattern where, I called you but you didn't get back to me or I emailed you but you never got back to me.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:25)

Yeah.

Theresa M. Ward (07:25)

Those

are the triggers or the indicators that we really need a communication protocol. My hope is that your listener will develop one of these before those excuses start to happen, but it's okay whether you're in proactive or reactive mode. It can be helpful in either situation.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:40)

And you know, I've got a couple things for you listening right now on this. Go ahead and start.

anybody can initiate this discussion and it will help with my other point is one of my most popular. I have four signature keynotes that I give and I speak at conferences around the country and the one that is the most popular right now is this meeting could have been an email and we talk all about meeting effectiveness, right? And what I want to point out is one of the things about a communication protocol that's really helpful is one of the lessons I teach in that talk is about

Theresa M. Ward (08:01)

I it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (08:13)

asymmetrical versus symmetrical communication, right? So asymmetrical means I send you an email and then you can read it and respond to it at a time that is good for you later. That's asymmetrical where symmetrical is like Theresa and I right now are having symmetrical communication live. And so that live communication would be a meeting. So when I say this meeting, which is symmetrical, could have been an email, which is asymmetrical.

I share that because asymmetrical is more efficient for the team's productivity. So the other thing that you get with the communication protocol also kind of have the protocol will help you with what needs to be a meeting. What are things that I need to interrupt people for versus what are things that I don't need to interrupt people for?

Theresa M. Ward (08:45)

OOF

Brian Nelson-Palmer (08:59)

So that's just food for thought. Theresa, any thoughts, any yes ands on that? What are your thoughts?

Theresa M. Ward (09:04)

I have a yes and and a yes, but yeah. Okay. So my yes and I love the distinction between symmetrical and asymmetrical. I have also called that synchronous or asynchronous my thought, my challenge is the

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:06)

Okay, hit me. I like this. All right.

Theresa M. Ward (09:23)

blanket assumption that asymmetrical communication is always going to be more efficient than symmetrical communication Because we have all gotten caught up in the 14 back-and-forth emails that some where someone is trying to communicate something with context emotion sensitivity and it literally could have been a phone call that takes 37 seconds

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:38)

Totally.

Yeah.

Theresa M. Ward (09:53)

instead

of the kicking back and forth and the misinterpretation of tone and things like that. And the reason that I want to call that out is just because what I see happening in generational communication trends, which Brian, I'm very curious to see if you see these same kinds of things, but for digital natives, so for millennials and younger, the go-to form of communication is asymmetrical or asynchronous.

text or slack message or an email first. And that comes along with this sense of, I'm respecting your privacy. I'm respecting your time, your flexibility, your work from home schedule. But it also means there's this weird

avoidance if someone does initiate symmetrical communication, an unannounced team's call, an unannounced phone call. And I don't want your listener or any of their direct reports to be afraid of symmetrical communication because in so many cases it can save time and save assumptions and emotions. Does that resonate with you?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:51)

Yeah.

On my side, I'm going preach sister. Yes, absolutely. That's a good point. And we talk about all the reasons why a meeting is the best form of communication. There are plenty of scenarios. It's not just let's get rid of meetings altogether. That's actually not productive. And what you gave is one of the many examples we talk about where yes,

Theresa M. Ward (11:07)

Okay.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:17)

this should be a meeting, make it a meeting.

Theresa M. Ward (11:20)

it depends right on your company culture, the size of your team and how much, know, are you making this communication protocol just for your team? Are you trying to make it for the entire department? Are you trying to make it for the entire company? But you can get pretty nuanced even beyond just meeting or non meeting because there are so many different types of meetings. It doesn't have to be sit down, put it on the calendar.

have all this anticipation for it, it literally can be, you know, I FaceTime you while you're walking the dog or I give you a call while you're driving to the dentist. Those things can be just as efficient. so I don't know if you would call that a meeting or if that's just.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:01)

Sure,

well, yes, or that could be a phone call or yeah, all of these different forms of communication. you know, while you're while you mentioned call you while I'm on the way to the dentist or something. And what I want to point out is that while many people might not and in many of the workplaces I've been in, I've been in a lot of workplaces and in many of them that I've been in and the many different teams, none of those teams had actually a written communication protocol.

And when I introduced it to the teams that I've been on, it's made a huge difference. So I'm assuming that you listening might or might not have had these things before. But what I want to point out now is you probably have a communication protocol just in the way that you operate in the world for yourself individually. Right. Like you might generally, if you're a millennial or you're on the younger side, you might just text people

have whole conversations just in text. And so that's your personal protocol. You have a way that you like to communicate. And so people have their own protocols. And so this concept isn't new. for, for Theresa, for this, if you're taking like your individual protocol, do you, do you have any thoughts offhand on any or tips on somebody's individual?

communication protocol, like any recommendations on what's good or not good for just the way that you do it personally.

Theresa M. Ward (13:21)

Yes, okay, so self-awareness is step one in everything that I do for a team. And so whether that's an individual contributor or that's a leader on the team, it is very good to write down or to take a mental inventory of, yeah, I do tend to text first. I tend to decline calls.

So to take a mental inventory of what your own preferences are then allows you to have a baseline of communication. Is that similar to most folks on my team? Am I more of the exception or am I more of the standard? So to your point, I don't think it's labeling it good or not good, but it is being able to bring it to the table, especially if you're the one initiating this, being able to say, you know what?

I have a strong preference for typed asynchronous communication. I'm realizing that that has places where it's most effective and places where it's not. then gathering like a small committee of maybe some peers, some direct reports, know, multi-level folks in your organization, getting a small committee together and saying, what is actually the best?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:13)

Sir.

Theresa M. Ward (14:29)

It's uncomfortable because what's the best is not always your own personal preference. For example, I am a huge fan of asynchronous video communication where you simply record three minutes of a message and instead of sending it, in a typed, paragraphical email or a Slack message, you just send the video. That way you get the benefit of the

vocal tone and the body language, but you didn't have to schedule a meeting for it. There are plenty of clients that I work with who you say video and their shoulders tense up and their voice gets all weird and all of a sudden they're not actually being themselves. So if that's counterproductive, you have to be aware of that, being willing to share that and saying, okay, I'll try and use video in this part of our communication protocol.

but everybody needs to know it's gonna be weird for a little while. So there's also that learning curve of getting used to the new protocol once it's established.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:29)

You know, on this same topic, I was in a really large organization and I ran a really large project that had, I don't know, there were like 4,000 people affected by the project and there were 26,000 people in the organization, right? And I was running this program where it was impossible for me to actually get a meeting with everyone at the same time. And so what we did is we did an internal video podcast where

Theresa M. Ward (15:45)

Right.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:51)

It was actually discussing, right? Just like you said, you said three minutes and in my mind, thought, yep, video broadcast. And what's great about that is some people like to watch, some people like to listen, and some people like to read. And what's amazing about the technology we have now is you can record a video and then you can send that and they can listen to it or they can watch it.

And then you can also drop the transcript into AI and it will give you a summary of the action items and the whatever else it is. So if they want to read, they can read the transcript. They can read the action items. Like it's possible for you to communicate more efficiently to everybody's different preferences.

That's a great tool that not many people use. So I love that you mentioned video because it's like, yes, absolutely.

Theresa M. Ward (16:36)

Yeah.

And I, okay, so this is a little bit outside of communication protocol, but what you just mentioned brings something up for me that I'm really curious how you're seeing it. So with the advent of AI and the incorporation of, this meeting is being recorded. It is being transcribed. It is being summarized by, you know, this artificial assistant. I have started to see this trend where then if I'm invited to a meeting,

an individual will be invited to a meeting. They will attend the meeting, but they will use the meeting time to do other things because they say, I'm just going to listen to the transcription or read the AI summary afterwards. And it's like at the top, I'm like, that sounds efficient, but it's very, in my opinion, counterproductive.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:20)

Yes.

Theresa M. Ward (17:28)

Have you seen that that happening? I mean, that it kind of breaks my heart.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:32)

it is. And at the same time, this drives back to this meeting could have been an email, a broadcast, a video message would have been more efficient for everybody since or everybody who's not. You didn't have to be there live.

Theresa M. Ward (17:36)

Don't be happy.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:44)

part of why a communication protocol is good, because unless you pose situations where you should consider this kind of communication, most people, especially in the older generations, there's only two ways that they communicate, email or meeting. And that's it. But there's so many more.

that people might not use. just that's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing the same thing as you're seeing. And I really just it's such a good indicator of, there's you should leverage some of these tools, these other tools you have.

Theresa M. Ward (18:13)

Now I will say for you listening, if you are going to leverage some of these more recently developed communication techniques, such as, I'm not going to attend the meeting, but I'm going to let my team just read the AI summary. One of the best things that I've seen is I saw a leader every morning, he blocks off an hour on his calendar and he calls it like communication catch up.

And it's the time when he's cleaning out his inbox, he's reviewing Slack messages, he's reading or listening to the transcriptions from meetings from the day before. And I love that that's normalized, that your day doesn't need to be filled with simply tasks and meetings. You have to create this white space for navigating all of these different communication messages that are now.

being available to you.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:08)

Totally. It's super important. please you be the spark to start recording your meetings because a lot of organizations and individuals have it like they're just opposed to being recorded necessarily. But if you record it, anybody who misses it, instead of you having to catch them up, there's a recording and by the way,

productivity hack shameless. one of those guys who listens and watches on two times or three times speed because I mean you might be listening to this episode on two times speed or three times speed and if you are right now I am applauding you right now. Well done because your brain can process that information faster than we can speak it necessarily. So yes, take advantage of that too if you're catching up on recording. if if if there is

Unless there is some sort of legal reason why you can't record, just record. Because then there's so many good reasons.

Theresa M. Ward (20:00)

the recording also helps us remember, especially if you're not on video, if you're not in person, the more technological or the more asymmetrical our communication gets, the more rude we let ourselves get. That is unfortunately why cyberbullying is a thing and people will just troll through.

YouTube, you know, comments and things like that. And I think if we are acting as if we are being recorded, I think it reminds us to be our best selves and to pay attention to one another and to really tune in and sort of, you know, sit up a little straighter and be like, I'm being recorded. And I don't mean that in a

Big Brother kind of fear-based way. I think it's just a way for us to remember that, you know, we need to show up and be our best selves with each other whenever possible.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:00)

true. And anything you put is going to be a reflection of your performance professionally. So yes, absolutely. Theresa, I want to jump into you. So you did a great job earlier describing what a communication protocol might look like, right? And so one of the things that is

I think super helpful. And I give, if you go back and listen to Maura, I did an episode with Maura Thomas who came on the show and she talked about the one thing that was one of the first times that I had heard reference. I've heard it called a communication protocol. I've heard it called a lot of things over the years. She called it a communication protocol and she said that emergency, who to contact an emergency is one of the, and how to contact them.

Theresa M. Ward (21:24)

Yeah!

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:43)

is what qualifies as an emergency? So I want to note that because when you're talking about this, it's not just should you email or should you have a meeting, but at what point should you call the person, like what qualifies as an emergency? And so I thought that was a really good tip that she had. And so I want to yes, and with you then, Theresa, besides what qualifies as an emergency and how should you communicate in an emergency?

Theresa M. Ward (21:45)

Right.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:08)

What else goes into a communication protocol? What are your thoughts?

Theresa M. Ward (22:12)

Mm-hmm.

I don't think it's binary in most industries, okay? Like even in, you know, you've got your doctor and then you've got urgent care and then you've got the emergency room. And I think in a lot of cases, emergency is subjective. And hopefully you, the listener, you're hiring professionals who have a decent amount of discernment.

if, if you, I think if you frame it as how to escalate instead of, this is emergency versus non-emergency, it empowers the discernment of your direct reports. And then if they don't get it quite right, then it's a teaching opportunity. So for, I think it's nice to do it in like levels or stages. So maybe it's Slack first.

And if you don't get a response in X amount of hours, then escalate to a phone call or a text message. It also depends if you work with people overseas in different time zones and all of those components. But I think the most important part is just either deciding together

what a phone call means. Is an unprompted phone call an emergency escalation or is it just, hey, I wanna shoot the shit? So that is what I think sends a lot of folks into a panic is, no, my boss is calling me unprompted. And the person who's receiving the phone call thinks it's an emergency escalation, thinks there must be something wrong.

Whereas the person who's initiating the phone call is like, no, this is just what I do when I'm driving to the dentist, right? So I'm not sure if the emphasis needs to be on what is an emergency. It's just how to work your way towards something. And one of the things that drives me crazy, whether it's a text or a Slack or an email, is when somebody says, hey, do you have a minute?

because that gives me no context on how to respond. So I think when you're, when you are working up towards an emergency, give context and say, I am calling you because there is an urgent client issue and I really need your help. Or I am emailing you even though you are three levels above me because I have already tried to contact my boss and their boss.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:28)

Yes.

Yes. Yeah.

Theresa M. Ward (24:38)

about this specific outage and I am

not getting a response within the last two hours. So that kind of thing can really also trigger the person who's receiving the communication to say, this isn't our usual protocol. And I understand why they are going through a non-typical communication channel. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:57)

Absolutely. I'm

laughing because whenever people ask me if I if they if I have a minute, I generally respond and say I have about 90 seconds. And then the so go ahead. What do you got? Because then they have to get to the point or whatever it is. But then the other thought that I had is

Also, it's about permission. know, your communication protocol shouldn't just be between you and your boss and your teammate. The communication protocol should also be something that the people above are aware of because it's also permission, right? Like it's permission on, listen, if you're, if it's going to cost the organization more than X number of dollars or

Theresa M. Ward (25:36)

Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:38)

There is blood involved or someone from a hospital or like these are all things that are absolutely you have permission to go all the way up and it empowers people to like, yes, please do that as opposed to well, I was just waiting to get ahold of the boss and I couldn't like there are going to be. So it's also the permission piece that you have permission to do these things or it also is efficiency too, because there's going to be there might be certain things if you need IT.

Theresa M. Ward (25:46)

Hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:06)

then you don't call your boss. Or there are certain kinds of support that you need where you should just go straight to that person. And so you've talked about those scenarios and that's where I think the communication protocol is super helpful.

Theresa M. Ward (26:20)

Yeah, I'm also now thinking about, you know, Jim Duthmer's concept of the water line.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:26)

Hmm. Well, if pretend I'm not familiar, what's that?

Theresa M. Ward (26:28)

Okay,

so it is, if you think about the way a boat sits in the water, part of the hull is below the waterline and part of it is above the waterline. And so rather than thinking about, is this an emergency quote unquote, like is there blood involved? Kind of like each team, each organization needs to understand, is this a pirate ship, like a cannon got shot?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:44)

Right.

Theresa M. Ward (26:55)

and is the hole in the boat above or below the waterline? Because if it's above the waterline, it's not gonna sink the ship. know, you can usually just, people can take care of it themselves. It doesn't require like emergency call to the CEO. So where is the waterline? If it's like, I'm about to piss off our most important client, like that's, if it's in danger of sinking the ship.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:11)

Sure.

Theresa M. Ward (27:21)

then that can sometimes be a helpful metaphor. Because I think emergency is just, too much of a loaded word sometimes.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:28)

True, urgent and I love, ultimately I hope you're taking away from this all of the different sort of scenarios or ideas for how you describe this when you're talking to the team and you're setting up this tool for your team is there are these different scenarios. So talk about that with the group because your team's dynamic, your team's situation is gonna be different. If you're sales, it's gonna be a difference like.

your chart is going to look different than if you're in customer service or if you're in delivery or if you're in operations or all of those things look different and you all speak the same language. So we're just giving you ideas for the different ways, whether it's dollars or pissing off a client or all of these things are ideas. But I love the waterline as a good sort of metaphor for what, where, where that lies. So good, good.

Theresa M. Ward (27:56)

Thank you.

You know, you could

even do like a mini communication protocol with a client, with an external partner. If you know, for example, I work with a branding agency and they, you know, are building a new website for a client and we got to get it launched in six months. And there's all of these deadlines and things like that. If it's one of those things where, Hey, we need your approval on the homepage wireframes by tonight, or we're going to mess up your launch date. Then.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:33)

Yeah.

Theresa M. Ward (28:42)

There can be a, yeah. So this doesn't only have to be for your insular team or for your department or your organization. It can be external as well.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:42)

Yes.

True.

Yeah, it could be for the customers too. I like that a lot. Theresa, where is this stored? Is it on a website? Is it in a shared folder? Is it any best practices there?

Theresa M. Ward (29:02)

Mm-hmm. I mean, that that's kind of part of the communication protocol, right? Is also being intentional about where things are stored and where things are shared. So if your company uses Google Drive, if you have access to Google Drive, you got to nominate a champion to make sure that it's organized and that everybody's using the same folder structure and, you know, the shared drives versus the home drives and all of that kind of stuff. usually.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:07)

Yeah.

Theresa M. Ward (29:29)

the development of a communications protocol will, it will reveal some of those other gaps. Like, ooh, we got SharePoint set up two and a half years ago, but everyone's just been using file attachments and email and downloading it on their desktop, you know, much to IT's dismay. So I think wherever you have decided that it's going to live,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:47)

Sure.

Theresa M. Ward (29:52)

It's good to nominate an accountability champion.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:55)

And I want to yes. And what you're saying, Theresa, my yes. And is please, wherever you put it, make sure that it's searchable. And if I go to whatever we're in a Google society these days, if we don't know the answer, we Google it. And inevitably, whether it's SharePoint or whether it's Google Drive or whether it's whatever, they can go in and they can search.

or depending on the size of organization.

Theresa M. Ward (30:14)

Right. Naming conventions. That could be a whole other podcast,

That's true. Yeah. Love it. Good. Yes.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:21)

So

what about, what do you do when people don't follow the protocol? Theresa, what happens?

Theresa M. Ward (30:27)

man, yeah, we can solve for the outliers, right? I mean, I think set your expectations at the start, okay? Not 100 % of people are going to adopt it. They're not going to adopt it overnight. My typical thing lately is like, if you can get 80 % of folks doing it, then at least it can become a cultural norm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:32)

Right?

Theresa M. Ward (30:54)

And sometimes that takes a few weeks, sometimes that takes a few months. Patrick Lencioni, right, one of my favorite authors, he talks about how a good leader is a good chief reminding officer. And I just, I say that all the time everywhere. And I'm sure, you you can think of your best leaders are the ones who almost annoyingly repeated themselves until not only did you remember it, but you were empowered to then go spread the,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:08)

Yes.

Theresa M. Ward (31:21)

Rallying cry or the this is our new process. You were empowered to go spread it to everybody else So I think it's set your expectations up front and and be empathetic to how people react to change I was just giving a keynote about this last week where like the change cycle what our brains go through when we're told to do something differently is the same as the grief cycle

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:22)

Yeah, spread the gospel.

Yes.

Theresa M. Ward (31:44)

Like we go through shock and denial and bargaining and anger and blaming. when you lose the status quo, people are losing a sense of comfort and some people navigate that change curve faster than others. So know that as a leader of a team.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:47)

It's so

Theresa M. Ward (32:02)

You're gonna have a couple outliers. They're gonna need a little hand holding and you have to sort of tap into like, what's their cookie, right? What's their reward? What is their sense of motivation? Do they want public praise? Like, do they want gifts? Like, what is the thing that's gonna get people on board? Is it a little bit annoying? Do you wish, you know, maybe you didn't have to babysit people through these changes? Sure.

But as long as it's 20 % of your team that just needs like the little sprinkle of something extra, then yeah, you've probably got a good team if 80 % of your folks can just get on board. Eventually, you're just gonna become the weirdo who doesn't track your time or doesn't use Slack correctly, or, you know, still sends emails and that has its own.

I don't think negative reinforcement or shame is a great technique, but people do want to feel like they belong in the culture. eventually, we usually see some late adoption. That's my experience.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:57)

as you're talking, two things immediately came to mind. One, remember that praise should be public and anything that's a performance thing should be taken offline or in private. So if someone doesn't follow the protocol and you're going to remind them or point it out, it's best not to do that in front of everybody. So that's one thing to keep in mind. And the other one is

It's the, there's a book and I'll drop the link in the notes for you, but it's called the one minute manager. And the one minute manager is all about when you see something good, say something and be supportive. When you see something that's not right, address it right. Take one minute and address it right then. And so I think that is super important for a protocol situation. If somebody misses it one time or it seems like it's logic. I mean, everybody, we're going to have an understanding, right? It's guide, just like you said, it's a guide.

Theresa M. Ward (33:27)

Hmm.

Okay.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:49)

And if people keep, if they keep stepping outside the guide, then you need to point it out. And it's best to do that right at the time when it happens. So do that in private.

Theresa M. Ward (33:58)

Hmm.

things coming up for me. love what you're sharing. think the first is make sure that your final version of your communication protocol has a solid why behind it. Besides, this is just the way I want things. So if I put out a communication protocol, Brian, and you're not following it and I bought, I say, Hey, you're not

you know, we all agreed that it was going to be Slack and you're emailing. I have to be able to answer the question, well, why, why are we not doing email anymore? And it can't be arbitrary. It can't be the two year old, you know, because mommy said so. so that's probably the hardest part of this whole thing is, is making sure that there is a legit why. So don't rush this and don't make it overly.

Don't overemphasize on your personal pet peeves. The other thing that I'll push back on just a little bit is when you were talking about like praise in public, generally, I would say that's a best practice. But the, you ever taken the appreciation languages assessment?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:53)

Yes.

Touche, yep, some people don't

like the public appreciation, so that's fair, yep.

Theresa M. Ward (35:12)

I think public praise is the jam, but I've really heard from a couple of my clients as a trend that it seems in some cases performative or cringy. And they prefer like, if my boss's boss writes me a handwritten card and puts it in the mail, that means more to me than being called out in front of a hundred people. Now, who knows why I'm not saying, but.

As a manager, you should tune into those kinds of nuances with your team. So that's, I mean, that's really the hardest part about these protocols is finding that sweet spot between, yes, we all need to get aligned and do generally the same things. And there are always going to be exceptions and empathetic managers will be into those exceptions instead of being realistic or fundamental.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:43)

Yes.

I love that you pointed that out because the point of bringing that up was really more about if you're going to criticize, you want to do that, not in public. so I like it. Like, and I mentioned that the praise can be public, but you're right. Everybody's different. And that's also true. And that's part of being a leader is knowing

Theresa M. Ward (36:10)

don't throw up. 100 % agree.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:23)

These are the ones that like the public praise. These are the ones that are very shy and would absolutely be just embarrassed as heck if you brought them up, even if it was something good So yes, I love that you mentioned that good point there. Now, what about the?

Theresa M. Ward (36:28)

I would die.

Thank you.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:39)

Can I want to take a side note here just as a fun thing as far as communication protocols go? What is a communication habit or behavior for you personally? Theresa that drives you crazy? Because I've I've got one, but I'm just curious what what are like? Is there one that when it happens and you're just like, gosh, come on people, why did I know so I have I have one, but I want to ask you first.

Theresa M. Ward (37:03)

I think mine is probably the Gotham in it. Yeah, what's yours?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:06)

Ooh, yeah, yeah, OK.

Mine is, do not email me and ask, can we, when can we meet? That email is such a waste for everybody involved because you're gonna email that. And then I might send you some times back and then you might not be able to do that time. So then you've got to find other ones or even worse is when I, and don't get me wrong, there are professional situations where I don't have any

Theresa M. Ward (37:19)

Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:34)

I get that email and I don't have any alternative but to send sometimes. Like, and I cringe when I do it, but I do it. And then the worst is when they write back and they just say, I can't do any of those times. Can you send them more? that is my, that is my like pet peeve drives me bonkers. my gosh. Like,

There is an app for this people. You can see my calendar. You can see when I'm available. So please just like let's not do back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. Just trying to find a time to meet. So that's just my that's my little one that's just like God when it happens it drives me crazy.

Theresa M. Ward (38:06)

Yeah.

I think I'm the last person in the world to not use like a Calendly or like a public shared calendar because I'm one of those like crazy old David Allen, you know, people that like every hour on my calendar has something booked. And so it doesn't look to the algorithm like I have any free time because I don't I don't use white

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:27)

Sure.

Theresa M. Ward (38:36)

space on my calendar. Like my days have like chunks already assigned. So I like I can't I don't do the you can see my calendar and I can see your calendar and it's nice when at least one of us you know has that. But if both people don't I totally agree with you at least be like here are the times I can meet if none of those work for you please send times that do. And you got to think about it like

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:38)

Sure.

Yes.

Theresa M. Ward (39:02)

We are all working towards, you know, the touchdown and like, please do things that move the ball down the field instead of just like this space or like the backwards motion. Yeah, I feel that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:09)

the ball down the field. Yes, please. Yeah. gosh. And

Theresa, I'm totally going to call you out here because I fully support being a David Allen person and having your time blocked and all those time blocks. But here's the hack that you can use to still use Calendly if you do that, which is and if you listening, if you if this is you too, if you're like Theresa, please do this, which is set up a calendar.

Theresa M. Ward (39:27)

Tell me.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:35)

for another calendar for your tasks. And when you go into Calendly, you can set up Calendly so it will look at which calendars. And so if you have meetings or I fundamentally believe your calendar should be where you need to be, not what you need to do. So that's my own personal thing. But if you have your to-do items all in one count, so let's say purple is your to-do list calendar or whatever, and this is Theresa's to-do list calendar.

Only put the tasks and those things in that calendar and you can set up Calendly to not look at that calendar. So it will show the times when you are available that you're not already in a meeting and you maybe could move some stuff around, but you can still put stuff on every hour of the day and use both. So just food for thought if you haven't thought about that one. Highly recommend.

Theresa M. Ward (40:24)

No, that's

good. And it's so great to hear that because I'm such a proponent of everybody should be willing to evolve and change, know, change your communication status and change the way, you manage your productivity.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:40)

Right,

totally. if you ever reached out to Theresa, I hope she sends you a Calendly link with all of the times that she's available.

Theresa M. Ward (40:47)

Challenge accepted challenge accepted and

So here's the yeah

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:51)

Let's do it. I love this. Well, last question for you.

Last question for you, Theresa, which is, so what does this mean for you personally?

Theresa M. Ward (41:00)

Gosh, okay, so I don't have kids. I've always been really focused on my career and I feel like I've personally experienced the full gamut of misery to thriving when it comes to our professional space. So when I think about like my

purpose in the world, I want to be able to contribute way more to people's thriving than their misery. you know, a lot of folks out there, even if you do have kids or, you know, you have other personal priorities, we spend so much of our lives at work, most of us, right? You know, 40 hours a week is...

if you're living in a typical, you know, American corporate situation. Sure. And I know there's exceptions to that rule, but it's just, I do believe that work can be a place where our souls can thrive and that we can be our best human selves. And if we can get some of this crap out of the way,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:49)

Stereotype. Yeah.

Theresa M. Ward (42:07)

with pet peeve emails like you're saying, inefficient exchanges, just missing each other, not seeing, hey, this is what I meant, this is what I want to offer. I think this communications protocol is just a really practical way to remove some of those barriers from us enjoying one another and enjoying our

Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:27)

love it. You know, well, so here's what I love. I love that you're bringing this desire to be better for everyone to thrive comes with you in this. And I love that you're coming at it from a perspective of let's take the best practices from many different silos and use those, the many different industries that you've touched.

to help level this one up and level this one up in that perspective and everything. And so I love that you created this, the fiery feather is your thing. You can check her out. I'll have the link for you in your episode notes here. I love that you're doing this thing and you found it. And I think what you're talking about and what we're talking about today is things that will make everyone's work lives better, which will make their lives better, which is just a win for everybody. So I love that you're doing this. Thanks for being here and doing this.

Theresa M. Ward (43:17)

I'm so happy that Maura, your previous podcast guest, got a chance to introduce us. And it's been really fun to see how aligned we are on so many things. This is a fun conversation.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:28)

Absolutely. And for those people who want to keep in touch with you after this, where should they go?

Theresa M. Ward (43:33)

LinkedIn is the best

place to find me. So Theresa as in Marie Ward. The fieryfeather.com website is another good place. Those are pretty much the spaces where I hang out.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:43)

You got it. And I'll have those, those links are in your episode notes right now. So you can go check those places out. And for you tuning in, do you have a friend or colleague who you've had some of these nightmare communication conversations that Theresa and I have been talking about right now? And if you do, would you share the link to this episode specifically with them? Cause I know Theresa and I would love to know that our conversation and our back and forth and the tips and the things that we've shared today would

would help others and a few and please do text them because and I say text because I know it's funny like we just talked about communication protocols, but I'm actually saying text messages because this is about that personal connection and a couple of texts back and forth with you because you heard this episode and it reminded you of that nightmare boss that you had with that person from five years ago that you haven't talked to in a little bit. If that connection and that that back and forth

We'll go a long way toward filling up both of your cups in a way that like posting on social media or just basic stuff wouldn't do. please do send that text message. I know Theresa and I would both appreciate that. And whether this is your first episode that you've ever heard of Productivity Gladiator or if you're one of my regular subscribers, regardless, I love sharing Productivity Gladiator with you because together these productivity skills are going to change your life. That's a wrap.

ADHD-Inspired Productivity: Mythbusting & What You Can Learn From This Condition - With Skye Waterson

In this engaging episode, Brian Nelson-Palmer interviews Skye Waterson, founder of Unconventional Organisation, who challenges common myths about ADHD while sharing research-backed strategies for productivity.

As a former academic turned entrepreneur who has ADHD herself, Skye offers unique insights about how ADHD can actually be an entrepreneurial advantage when properly managed.

The conversation explores practical tools for focusing, including Skye's innovative "dopamine dial" approach, and reveals the surprising fact that many successful CEOs and business leaders have ADHD, making this episode valuable for both people with ADHD and those who work with them.

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The Video

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The Audio/Podcast

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References In This Episode

• Article Brian mentioned on Focus Music

• Brian’s article on Tech Hacks to avoid the neverending social media rabbit hole.

• Skye’s LinkedIn profile

• Unconventional Organisation’s Instagram

• The ADHD Skill’s Lab Podcast by Unconventional Organisation

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Episode Digest

"Your boss probably has ADHD. More likely than you. Your CEO almost definitely has ADHD."

This surprising insight sets the tone for a fascinating exploration of how ADHD manifests in the workplace and why it might be more of an asset than traditionally believed.

ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder) is often misunderstood. While commonly associated with childhood, many adults deal with it daily, experiencing persistent issues around restlessness, distraction, and feeling like they're being "driven by a motor." For those who have it, it can feel like being simultaneously foggy and jangly - similar to when you haven't gotten enough sleep and then had too much coffee.

"On a very practical level, what ADHD means is basically it's about persistent and pervasive issues around restlessness, distraction, people who feel like they're being driven by a motor... Some people say it's issues with too much attention."

Common Myths Debunked

Several prevalent myths about ADHD were addressed during the discussion:

1. "Medication is the only way to manage ADHD at work"

• This is false. While medication can be helpful, it's just one tool in what should be a comprehensive toolbox. Other effective strategies include exercise, movement, organizational systems, and environmental modifications. The key is having multiple management strategies available, as medication effectiveness can vary over time or become inaccessible.

2. "People with ADHD can't be detail-oriented"

• This is partially false. While people with ADHD might not be detail-oriented across all aspects of life, they can be incredibly detail-focused in areas of interest. As one expert noted, "I've never met anyone with ADHD who's detail-oriented across everything."

3. "Someone with ADHD can't handle leadership roles"

• This myth is completely false. In fact, many entrepreneurs and CEOs have ADHD. The condition often comes with strengths in creative problem-solving, quick decision-making, and innovative thinking - qualities that can be valuable in leadership positions.

Practical Management Strategies

The discussion revealed several actionable strategies for managing ADHD:

The Dopamine Dial Approach

Instead of attempting a complete "dopamine detox," which can be counterproductive for people with ADHD, try the "dopamine dial" method. This involves gradually reducing distractions rather than eliminating them entirely. For example:

• Start by turning off notifications while keeping some background noise

• Gradually transition from video content to audio

• Eventually move to just music or ambient sound

• Find your personal sweet spot for background stimulation

"Sometimes you need to have some form of low-level stimulation in order to focus... silence can actually be quite loud."

Managing Hyper-Focus

While often considered a superpower of ADHD, hyper-focus needs proper management to be truly beneficial. Without strategies to control it, hyper-focus can lead to burnout or misdirected energy. The key is learning both how to:

• Channel it toward priority tasks

• Step out of it systematically to avoid exhaustion

"Hyper-focus really is mostly for things that you're interested in. So if you're like, 'I'm going to hyper-focus on my really boring job,' the chances are that's going to be pretty difficult."

Workplace Considerations

For managers and colleagues working with someone who has ADHD, the most effective approach is to focus on optimization rather than diagnosis. Instead of pointing out potential ADHD traits, ask:

• "How do you work best?"

• "How can I help you work in that way?"

This approach benefits everyone, regardless of whether they have ADHD, and avoids potentially uncomfortable conversations about diagnosis.

Environmental Setup

Consider all five senses when creating a productive workspace:

• Visual: Plants, pleasing decor

• Auditory: Appropriate background noise

• Tactile: Comfortable seating and tools

• Other sensory inputs that help maintain focus without overwhelming

The key takeaway is that ADHD management isn't about forcing yourself into a conventional productivity model. Instead, it's about understanding your unique needs and creating systems that work with, rather than against, your natural tendencies. Whether you have ADHD or work with someone who does, the goal is to create an environment and systems that support executive functioning for everyone.

Remember: what works for one person may not work for another. The best approach is to experiment with different strategies and build a personalized toolkit of techniques that you can deploy as needed. Success isn't about eliminating ADHD traits - it's about learning to harness them effectively while managing potential challenges.

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Chapters

00:00 Understanding ADHD: A Personal Journey

03:18 The Practical Implications of ADHD

06:00 Recognizing ADHD: When to Seek Help

07:45 Executive Functioning and Support Strategies

09:16 Myths and Misconceptions about ADHD

18:40 Medication vs. Alternative Strategies for ADHD

21:12 Toolbox for Managing ADHD

27:43 Myth Busting ADHD Management

32:14 Detail Orientation and ADHD

33:32 Leadership Roles and ADHD

38:40 Hyperfocus: A Double-Edged Sword

42:04 Recommendations for Productivity

46:30 Personal Journey and Vision for Change

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Today’s Guest

Skye Waterson

Academic turned ADHD Coach & Founder of Unconventional Organisation

Skye Waterson founded Unconventional Organisation, an international ADHD support service, after receiving her own ADHD diagnosis during her PhD studies. She transformed her personal experience into research-based strategies, authoring over 50 articles reaching 250,000+ readers. Her expertise has attracted clients ranging from healthcare professionals to Fortune 500 directors, including consulting work with the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service.

As host of the ADHD Skills Lab podcast (100k+ downloads), she features prominent ADHD experts and leaders. Through her coaching program, writing, and speaking engagements, she helps adults with ADHD develop practical strategies for creating focused, balanced lives. Her work has been featured on multiple podcasts and she regularly speaks to professional networks about ADHD management.

Connect with her at:
linkedin.com/in/skye-waterson
UnconventionalOrganisation.com

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now train Productivity Gladiators to level up their careers. Graduates wield superpowers in time management, practical leadership, communication, & productivity. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!

“Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.”

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:06)
I'm Brian Nelson-Palmer and on this show I share personal practical productivity skills. And In this episode we're talking about ADHD Inspired Productivity Let's do myth busting and what you can learn from this condition And with me on the show today is Skye Waterson who's a former academic and the founder of the company Unconventional Organisation which supports business owners with ADHD Skye, thanks so much for joining me today.

Skye Waterson (00:35)

Yeah, it's wonderful to be here.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:38)

And say a little bit about your background. We're talk about ADHD today. So talk about how you're related to that topic.

Skye Waterson (00:44)

Yeah, so I'm a former academic. That's what I thought I was going to be doing for the rest of my life. When I started my PhD after a couple of burnouts, I decided I needed to figure out what was going on. So I went to my learning center. They did a bunch of tests on me and they said, we think you have adult ADHD. And I was like, I think you're mistaken. I think that's only something that you can have when you're a kid. And that took me on the whole journey of, you know, researching it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:11)

Yeah.

Skye Waterson (01:13)

I'm an academic, I couldn't help myself, you know, writing articles and eventually founding this company.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:20)

And for those now we've been using the acronym ADHD. It used to be called ADD, but what does that stand for?

Skye Waterson (01:26)

Attention deficit hyperactive disorder, but you can also have it as attention deficit hyperactive disorder primarily inattentive. The names have been shifting around a little bit.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:37)

You know, they get fancy with the acronyms and then want to change it a little more. And so, what does that mean on a very practical level?

Skye Waterson (01:39)

Yeah.

On a very practical level, what ADHD means is basically it's about persistent and pervasive issues around restlessness, distraction, people who feel like they're being driven by a motor. Those are kind of the things that, issues with attention. Some people say it's issues with too much attention. Those are the things you're having with ADHD.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:13)

I see. Okay. And I the people that are doing ADHD work right now?

Skye Waterson (02:19)

Great question. I think the biggest difference, at least the one that people have said that they've sort of appreciated the most, is that I work from primary sources. So I'm lucky enough to have been an academic. I have an understanding of how to read neuroscience papers, things like that. we have a researcher on our team who sources journal articles about ADHD, and we read those and use those to develop the systems that we then

use over time with one-on-one clients and eventually it become part of my group coaching program. And that's really how we develop our systems. So whenever you're learning something with us, you have that knowledge that it's coming from that research background.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:05)

I see. So it's coming from academics, not just from what Skye thinks is cool or something like that.

Skye Waterson (03:11)

No, no,

what Skye thinks is cool. Occasionally I will say it, but then I'll be like, there is no data to support this. So.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:18)

Fair enough. That's good. I love it. Alright, so let's jump into the topic today. we talked about ADHD and you talked about it being like a motor or inability to focus or now I'm not a person who has been diagnosed or I don't think I that I suffer from this. So how would you know and for a layman who doesn't understand it at all...

Skye Waterson (03:37)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:42)

what is it like? How would you describe it? Like share some examples.

Skye Waterson (03:45)

That's a great question. So I guess, have you ever had a day where you didn't get enough sleep and you just could not focus? You were just banging around all over the place, tired, but also too tired. Have you ever had that experience?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:59)

Yes, certainly.

Skye Waterson (04:00)

What does that

feel like to you?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:04)

I mean, it just feels like everything's foggy. for me at least, that's maybe slow to respond, slow to be able to come up with the answers that I need.

Skye Waterson (04:09)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

And then maybe you have coffee to feel better, right? In that moment, you might have coffee and now everything's foggy. You're a bit slow and you're a bit jangly at the same time. That can kind of be what it feels like to have ADHD all the time.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:28)

Right.

Goodness, gotcha. but if you've like, know there's plenty of there are, know adults that have been diagnosed much later in life. So you might like that's just the way that you've always been. So what's the point at which maybe you should talk to somebody about it versus this is just normal or is this one of those things where everybody should just go get the test just for funsies to see or like what do you think?

Skye Waterson (04:46)

Mm-hmm.

Well, the test

is really expensive. So most of the time if people are getting the test, you're usually like I remember there was a big thing in Britain around people being diagnosed and how they were being diagnosed but the person who actually from the NHS who was talking about this said look if people are paying like a thousand dollars to get an ADHD diagnosis, they've probably got something. It's just whether it's ADHD or not, you know, usually it's become

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:02)

Okay.

Skye Waterson (05:24)

Like a straw that breaks the camel's back. It's gotten to such a point where we're like, okay, now it's a problem. So, I mean, in terms of people not realizing that happens, like we're so used to being in our own head, in our own world. We just assume that it's this difficult or this easy for other people. mean, ADHD has strengths as well as weaknesses. So we just kind of assume that this is how everybody else's lives are. They also, you know, can't turn on an oven without also turning on a timer so that they don't burn the house down.

So this has kind of been the case for a lot of people.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (06:00)

So let me say it this way. I feel like there's a spectrum, right? It's not like an on or off switch. You either are or you aren't. It's not like that. It's probably some sort of like spectrum of people have different abilities to focus and not focus and that kind of stuff. So what would your advice be to someone who's

Skye Waterson (06:03)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (06:22)

Not really sure. Like maybe, maybe not. What's the first step to start down that path without jumping to the $1000 test?

Skye Waterson (06:25)

Yeah.

So One of the first things I would say is that getting support for executive functioning is helpful with ADHD. So if you're talking about, know, I mean, we work with people who are diagnosed and undiagnosed because one, it takes ages to get a test and it's very expensive, but two, executive functioning support doesn't require medication to get supported. Like medication is obviously a helpful part of that, but you can get that through strategies as well. So my recommendation would be

If you feel like this is ringing true for you, have a look at ADHD support that's out there. and start using it because there's no rule that says you can't, you can't use it. can't start getting prioritized and focused now and then, you know, get the diagnosis later on.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:18)

And you know, I would say like you and I both talk. I mean, Productivity Gladiators about being more productive. And I have a lot of conversations with folks about ADHD and this kind of thing, too, because ultimately what it is is all the different things that have been holding you back from being productive. And so I agree that ultimately, if there is a resource out there that helps you focus a little better, you don't need a diagnosis or a test or a something to level up your

Skye Waterson (07:23)

Mm-hmm.

I imagine.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:45)

productivity If you know that this is something that you could use some help with. I'm here Skye is here like start exploring some of the free stuff that we've got sitting out there that you can use and see if it helps you. Because ultimately we're just all trying to be better human beings anyway, regardless of whether we put ADHD as a title in front of it or not. Like let's just be more productive so. I like that a lot.

Skye Waterson (07:56)

Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah. I mean, I like to give things away. If you guys, an Unconventional Organisation on Instagram, I'll send you my prioritization filter, how you get focused. it's all there. It's all free because I want people to have the strategies. And I think a lot of people feel like that, you know, these systems are accessible. They are usable. then.

When you get the diagnosis, then you can have that conversation about medication as well. It's about having all the tools in your toolbox, know, mental health, executive strategies, medication, like health, exercise. There's research that movement helps your working memory. So, yeah, things like that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (08:49)

Now this episode, we're going to talk about some of the myths and do some myth busting here, but ultimately I do want to say that this episode is focused on, it's not just the person who potentially has trouble focusing or ADHD or whatever it is. It's also the people that work with them, the managers that oversee them. It's something that everybody should be aware of. And so I want, I'm going to speak to this. I want us to speak to this.

Skye Waterson (09:02)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:16)

both from the lens of the person who has it, but also from the people that love them and work with them. I want to look at it from both of those situations as we talk about this. let's do some, let's talk about that then first. What's the biggest misconception that managers or coworkers have about working with someone who has ADHD?

Skye Waterson (09:24)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Number one, it's probably the boss. Because a ton of entrepreneurs and CEOs have ADHD diagnosed and undiagnosed. Those are primarily the people I work with. So number one, it's probably the boss. Not necessarily, but statistically, you're probably looking at that. And number two, it's probably something you're not spotting.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:44)

Wait, wait, what? Say that again. It's probably the Boss?

Okay.

Skye Waterson (10:08)

A lot of people have ADHD and it goes unnoticed. Not everybody has the classic ADHD and the people who have the classic ADHD have more likely been already identified as having ADHD. there are people in your organization that you don't that, know, are struggling with this. They might have ADHD. They might not know it. You might not know it. It's very under diagnosed despite what people think. And so this is something that, you know, it's about

Creating a flexible environment to support executive functioning for everybody. For people with ADHD, but also for Brian when he didn't get enough sleep that day. You know what I mean? For everybody.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:49)

Right?

Yeah. And you keep saying that phrase executive functioning. What do you mean?

Skye Waterson (10:54)

So that's a really great question. When you look at the research, which I've done, there is not a 100 % definition of executive functioning, which is crazy, but there it is, because we're still figuring it out. There's like whole books on working memory. But basically what it means is that it's the systems that you might take for granted that allow you to remember that you need to

put the washing on when you get back and not necessarily write that down or to know that there's been 10 minutes and you only have 10 minutes left to go or actually understand what it means when someone says, could you please plan, you know, what is the timeline on this? When could you get this to me and have some information for that? There are a lot of people out there for ADHD reasons, but also for, you know, mental health and then also brain trauma reasons who don't have those skills.

And that along with impulsivity are the primary deficits when it comes to ADHD.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:58)

And impulsivity, say more on that. What do mean?

Skye Waterson (12:01)

So impulsivity is this idea of basically when you look at the brain, there's like a bit at the front. Sorry guys, I'm gonna go nerd for a minute. That's got like the prefrontal cortex. It's the prefrontal cortex. And so there seems to be a difference in how you're wired when you have ADHD where everything just is a bit closer. So where someone else might take a beat, we just go for it. Where someone else might say,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:13)

Let's it. Let's do it. Yeah. huh. Okay.

Skye Waterson (12:30)

Yeah, but I can't get up right now because I'm in a conference and that would be weird. We're like, get up, you know, so, or if it's primarily inattentive where other people might say, I have to keep focused on the class that I'm listening to or the lecture that I'm listening to. We might be off, you know, thinking about something else, coming up with a new idea, leading our team in a different direction, but it's just such an exciting idea. You guys don't understand. So like that is very ADHD.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:37)

Got it.

Got it. It's the look at the shiny thing over there. Thing and what's funny about that too and we should. I totally want to point this out right now is that. Our cell phones do this to us all the time because of all those notifications and the pop ups and the thing it wants our attention and so the world.

Skye Waterson (13:04)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:26)

Currently, one of the biggest things, one of the most valuable things that you can give in the world right now is your focus and your attention, your time. You can give them your time. And all of the apps on your phone want your time. They make money when you spend time on their app. So they have notifications and ads and all the things to try to get your attention. So being able to stay focused and not, ooh, look at the shiny thing is a, is a productivity superpower. it's, it's a very important thing.

Skye Waterson (13:33)

Exactly.

Mm-hmm.

becoming a struggle for everybody.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:56)

Right. And so like doing simple things like turning off, I turn off notifications for every single app except maybe three or four that are communication because it's urgent. Otherwise, I want to go in when I want to go in, not when you, Mr. App, want me to sign on so that you can get my attention and like stuff like that you have control over. And if you do that, my gosh, you just don't even understand the dividends. It'll pay per year.

Skye Waterson (14:05)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

But I will say, know, Brian, that I do have a disagreement with the idea of the dopamine detox, because we talk about this idea of a dopamine detox. Have you heard of this phrase kind of similar to what you're talking about?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:34)

Dopamine detox is that basically like don't use your phone or don't look at your phone. Okay.

Skye Waterson (14:39)

Just like don't have a phone.

Don't have a phone. mean, the most extreme example is like, you know, wake up, no phone, no music in silence, have a cold shower, you know, go outside and you know, that kind of thing. It's, you know, sort of aesthetic kind of way of doing things. I disagree with that for ADHD for a very specific reason. And that is because

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:57)

Okay.

Skye Waterson (15:04)

What we're looking at when we look at the neuroscience of ADHD, and this is not locked in neuroscientists are still figuring a lot of this stuff out, is that we seem to be operating at a lower level of dopamine, which means when we start something and you have it, when you're neurotypical, so you don't have ADHD and you start something, your brain kind of gives you a thumbs up like, yeah, you're going to get a reward. This is awesome. Like we know that. we're giving you the chemicals, make you feel good. When we have ADHD, there seems to be a bit of a gap there.

where our brain just looks at us and goes, what the heck are we doing? This sucks. And so when you just remove dopamine in that way, you're actually just putting yourself in a position where you're either going to be very unhappy or you're going to just continually break your own rules and feel bad about it. So I have an alternative that I've developed, which I can share if you'd like.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:00)

sure I will with an intro like that. Now I'm just curious like OK, are really so little. don't know if we want to sidetrack from all the myths, but I mean you can't toss something out like that and not finish. Come on, what do you got?

Skye Waterson (16:04)

Yeah.

Yeah, so basically I talk about the dopamine dial. And so what that is, is it's just the idea of going, okay, let's see where you're at in terms of the distractions that you have right now. And then let's just dial it down rather than turn it off. So it's like dial, not switch that concept. So if you're the person who's always getting distracted by your phone notifications, could we turn those off and maybe listen to something instead of watching something?

Like kind of like, then from there, like maybe from there we could say, let's just go to music. Let's just turn it off, like bringing the levels down so that it doesn't feel as horrible. A lot of what I do with ADHD is about reducing that bad feeling of just going from dopamine to no dopamine.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:59)

I see I'm drawing a parallel in my head here with the phrase that I use a lot is the there's three types of people in the world. There's the people who make it happen. The people who watch it happen and the people who wonder what happened. And so I feel like in specifically for notifications on your phone, your phone is the one who is making it happen. You're watching it happen. You're like, here's this. And then here's this. And I want to put you back in the let's make it happen.

Skye Waterson (17:12)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:28)

department where you decide. So like, yes, if you want to check your phone, awesome, do it. Or like I have a, have an article that I did that still gets a lot of people just stumble across this article. Cause I guess people must be Googling it or something, but they, there's an article that I did on how to, little tech hacks that you can use to help avoid the never ending rabbit hole of social media where we can get rid of, like I use an app that lets you get rid of the newsfeed so that when you go in there, yeah.

Skye Waterson (17:29)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:58)

Oh my gosh, it's been a game changer because now I go in there and I don't have the never ending scroll. It's not even on the screen, but I can go in, check the messages, check the notifications. You can respond to them. You can use social media exactly the same way, just without the newsfeed. And so something like that where you're back in the I feel like when you're talking about dopamine dial and to me, I think of it as getting back in the driver's seat on. OK, this is what I want right now, not what.

Skye Waterson (18:00)

So good.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:26)

something else has decided I should get my attention.

Skye Waterson (18:29)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And agree long term, I want the same thing, helping you focus, helping you, you know, do it. I just want to make it do it in a doable way.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:40)

I feel like that's a that's a tagline for website somewhere. Skye do it in a doable way. Let's say yes, I love it. Alright, so then let's alright. So myth busting now I'm what I'm going to do is basically share. I've got things that I've heard people say overtime about ADHD and so then you tell tell me tell us is it True or not true and comment on it. So the first one is.

Skye Waterson (18:44)

Yeah, probably.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:07)

Medication is the only way to manage ADHD at work.

Skye Waterson (19:12)

Yeah, that's not true. No. So a couple of reasons. First of all, will say medication can be a helpful thing. I have seen a lot of people really benefit from medication, but it's a journey. I've also seen a lot of people go on medication and then find themselves in a position where the medication wasn't as good as it was before.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:13)

Not true. Say more.

Skye Waterson (19:34)

I've seen people lose access to that medication because the system stopped giving it to them in different ways. That's the fun thing. I've seen people have hormonal shifts that mean the medication isn't working anymore. And I've seen people just really not benefit from it. I don't take medication. People often ask me, I don't take medication because I want to be as ADHD as possible because I want to figure out a bunch of strategies. So that's why I'm out here just doing it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:04)

Is that true? You do that? there you go. You're that person out there like, look at me! I got it!

Skye Waterson (20:04)

Yeah, it's

like, yeah, the natural version. But I think medication is really helpful. So, no, there's tons of other strategies. Some of them for other people work better. They work in tandem. Sometimes you'll have a period of your life where you especially were talking about like perimenopause, things like that. Women talk about that much more now.

where medication just won't seem to be working anymore. So having the strategies is useful. You want to have both. And sometimes the government will just take away the medication because they don't have it anymore. So it's always good to have something else.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:45)

Yeah,

government or insurance for that matter, you change the parents and all of a sudden it's not covered and it goes from $40 for a month to like 500 and then you that's not going to work. Yeah, totally.

Skye Waterson (20:48)

Yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. And

they all work. They all work and they all work well together.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:01)

And so when we're talking about that was medication is the only way to manage ADHD. So instead you're talking about some of the other tactics and strategies that you teach or that I teach or like those kinds of productivity things that help you.

Skye Waterson (21:12)

Yeah. Or exercise

or movement, things like that as well. You know, I would say if you wanted to get an answer to that, it would be like, there are a toolbox of things that support ADHD and having a toolbox available to you is the best way to manage your ADHD.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:31)

I love that I'm thinking about the the scene or the moment in your life where there is a looming deadline for something at work and you've got to get it done. So what do you do to get into work mode to get that thing done? You started this long time ago in school. It was the paper is due tomorrow. You have 12 hours to submit, so like you have to. It's not an option anymore. So then what? What do you do? Do you know? Do you have the tools like I absolutely have?

Skye Waterson (21:40)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

yeah, I know exactly what you

do.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:00)

Sky has tools,

but my question for you listening is, do you have those tools and what are they? Many people have one tool and what we're talking about here is, especially for folks who might struggle with focus, you might need more than one tool. Like maybe there should be three or four so you could try one and then try another or put them together like I hey, I Sky I want maybe I'll put you on the spot. You could share one. Here's one of mine. Might I have my turbo focus mode when I really I gotta dial it in like it's gotta be now.

Skye Waterson (22:29)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:30)

There's no I got

right now. have to get all these things done before the end of the day. Let's go. I use focus music and I'll drop the link to the article I wrote on this in the notes to this episode. But ultimately, what it is is there's a certain type of music where it changes every there's a there's a bunch of studies that were done on the amount of time that you can focus. And it's generally from like one to three minutes. And then your brain kind of wants a little shift or something.

And so what they've done is they have music that is created so that it is the same continuous, repetitive beat for the appropriate amount of time. Thirty seconds to a minute. It changes its actual music. It's not like weird techno stuff. It's actually like good music that you can listen to. They have it in all different genres. They do it in classical. They do it in house. They do it in rock. But it's the same. And then it changes. And so it allows you.

to what the research says and what it does for me. The reason it works so good for me is because I'm a music person. And for me, that little bit of shift every 30 seconds to a minute, the beat changes and then something changes and it allows. It's like a freaking zombie mode like I and I'm so mad that I didn't discover this until I was in my 30s because I really wish I would have had focus music when I was in school. God, that would have been so helpful. But man, put the focus music in the headphones, the noise canceling with the AirPods like I'm dialed in.

It's like I feel like Superman, like all of a sudden it's just I'm dialed in. That's it. So that's one of mine. What's one of your Skye?

Skye Waterson (24:04)

So I teach the step into focus routine and I do everything I teach. So, yeah, see previous note, not medicated. so the, you know, one of the, things that I do is basically going from a high focus space to a low focus state. So you're kind of like, sorry, a high dopamine distraction state to a low dopamine distraction state. So you're kind of up here, you're on your phone. You don't want to do the thing you're on your couch. I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. You're scrolling. You're kind of trying to get yourself there.

And then you have the space where you're actually doing the thing. And there's a big gap in the middle of those two things, which is the resistance. People have called it like something's eating their soul. They feel like they have a heavy weight. Like there's a lot of like, and usually what people do is they will wait until the very, very last minute to, you know, get the motivation to push through that thing. What I teach is essentially adding steps in and doing each of those steps to

be like, okay, well, can do the first step. And then when I'm doing the first step, I can do the second step. And so you get to the part where you're focused without having to do that resistance. And your thing is very much part of that. you know, one of the first stings you do is, I recommend with ADHD, give yourself a reward for sitting down at your desk to do the thing. Because so often, you know, we, again, the research, we're not getting it. Yep.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:26)

Sweet.

I want you to do imagine this. So this is you now do a scenario. So this what does this look like? I'm curious. So you got steps. What does it look like? You're going to sit down. You got a deadline looming. Walk us through it. What is that?

Skye Waterson (25:35)

Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Okay. So what I do is I will grab myself a cup of coffee decaf these days, probably something nice to eat. And I'll sit down and I'll actually watch a YouTube video first because I would never get to my desk otherwise. Different people have different things. Some people want to read an article. Sometimes YouTube is too distracting for them, but something that you will finish pretty quickly.

And then from there, I'll sort of watch it. And then at that point, I'll turn off my notifications and everything that's going to distract me because I'm in a pretty good feeling, pretty good and feeling pretty generous with myself at that point. And then from there, I'll grab a post-it note that I have by my desk and I'll write down exactly what I want to get done during this period of time. Like it's a recipe, like someone else is going to do it and I'm going to leave the room. And

That will give me what I need to actually understand when I get distracted halfway through, which I will where I was at and kind of keep in the zone. At that point, know, YouTube starts to be a bit too distracting. So I will dial it down to like a podcast or maybe straight down to music, depending on how I feel. Your music is a great example. And then, you know, from there, I will open the application and I'll just tinker around in a little bit, write a few headings.

Write some notes, no pressure to get started just yet. But once I've done that, I'm feeling good, I'm not distracted, I know what I need to do, some things down. At that point, inertia kind of goes the other way and I just get started.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:10)

And then you get started. Cool. OK, I like that. It steps. That's funny for me. I just jump right in deep end headphones in like no force it to make it happen. And I like that is a very different approach, which is, yeah, let's step into it. And, know, it's OK if you've got to do it by the end of the day, taking five minutes to ease into it versus like, no, now like totally.

Skye Waterson (27:18)

Mm hmm. It's gonna happen.

You

know, person listening, you know how long you procrastinated on that. It might've been days. So 20 minutes is not that big of a deal.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:43)

Right, true story. The deadline doesn't change either when you have to have it done by isn't going to end either is change either. So yes, I the that's interesting. Thanks for that, Sky. That's cool. OK, all right. So rewinding, we were talking about myth busting. The first one was that medication is the only way to manage ADHD at work. Here's the next one. I need to watch TV while I'm working to help me focus. Myth or not myth?

Skye Waterson (27:48)

No.

It's all good.

Sometimes it depends. sometimes you're lying to yourself, but sometimes it's helpful. if we go back to that dial idea, right? Sometimes you need to have some form of low level stimulation on in order to focus. Like that is true, especially with ADHD. Like silence can actually be quite loud. know, things happening, it can be quite like, what is that noise? What's going on? My fridge is really loud. Who knew?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:13)

Okay, say more.

Skye Waterson (28:40)

so that can happen. Background noise can be good, but you and I both know that sometimes there is that background noise that you're convincing yourself is helpful, but it's actually super distracting and actually getting anything done feels like you're kind of wading through a pile of distraction to get to it. So if that's you, you might want to dial it down to some music or something.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:02)

So is that I'm thinking of two things as we're talking about this one would be if you have the TV on, that's one thing, but the TV cannot be in your line of sight. Meaning if you OK, if it's if you're trying to actually be productive, then you shouldn't be able to see the screen because if you see the screen, you're just going to turn and you're going to watch it and you're not actually going to work. You're just going to be distracted. So is it having friends on in the background where like the TV show Friends or something where you already know the words and it's back there, but you're not actually watching it? Or does that matter?

Skye Waterson (29:24)

Hmm.

Yeah, I don't necessarily agree. You have to have it hidden. You can have it viewable. you will naturally look at something and it could add a little bit of visual stimulation to help you stay engaged. But the most important thing is the fact that it has to be something you don't care about. You're not going to pay attention to like the news is a terrible version of this. friends that you've watched a million times is probably a better example. but if you catch yourself just kind of staring at it and watching the episode, and then when the episode ends,

going back to work, then you've probably dialed up too much. You need to dial it down.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:07)

And the other thing that comes to mind for me is words versus no words in music. So the, the turbo music that I talked about, it does not have words. And that's important because when you think about your focus, we are an auditory society and that you hear and you process things. Many people are auditory learners. Some people are visual learners. Everybody's a little different, but for the most part, we communicate ever since we were a kid, we've communicated through words and through listening to words. So,

Skye Waterson (30:13)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:36)

By having no lyrics, no words in the music, it allows you to focus in a little more because you're not processing. There's not a part of your brain that's processing the words that are coming in. You don't have to comprehend what friends is saying in the background when it's on the TV, because there are no other words. So the only words you're hearing are your own as you're thinking through whatever the problem is you're working through. is that but but is that.

Skye Waterson (30:44)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Uh huh. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:04)

different for that's still true for folks with ADHD or it's a little different. What are your thoughts?

Skye Waterson (31:11)

It gets really personal. that's when I work with people, we will build out a dial that fits them. And some people tell me it's got to be nothing. It can't even be music. has to be like white noise. And some people say there has to be something. And so, you know, it might be something like, just like coffee shop background noises is helpful for people. Like there's words, but they're not important, but there's that feeling of being in community. Sometimes that can be the case. So I would say there's no.

There's no research that indicates one or the other is better that I have found specifically, at least for ADHD people. It's more of an experimentation process, which is what I recommend always is like experimentation and then like figuring out what's working for you based on that experimentation.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:58)

Got it. Okay, that's really helpful. All right, so now onto the next one then. I heard people say, or somebody I've heard said, people with ADHD can't be detail oriented. Myth or truth?

Skye Waterson (32:14)

Myths sometimes. one thing is that if you have combined ADHD and autism, that's obviously a different thing. And that can happen a lot. But also people with ADHD can be really detail-oriented about their focus of interest. So sometimes, you know, if you've ever seen an ADHD person plan out their day when they're really hyper-focused on doing so,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:16)

Sometimes.

Skye Waterson (32:41)

they might have put every single thing that's gonna happen that day in the calendar. And they can be super detail orientated about it. And sometimes if they've set up a plan and you try and go and change the plan because you have executive functioning ability to do that, they can be super resistant to changing the plan. Cause they're like, no, I have to do it like this in this order or else I have to rethink the whole thing. This is something I teach people to do how to build more flexible systems. But if you don't have those, you can get quite focused.

I've never met anyone with ADHD who's detail-oriented, oriented across everything. That's what I would say.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:21)

Got it. Okay. So it kind of depends. Okay, here's another one. Someone with ADHD can't handle leadership roles.

Skye Waterson (33:32)

Your boss probably has ADHD. More likely than you. Your CEO almost definitely has ADHD.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:42)

And what? So, say more on this. Why? Why that? Is it just because since they've never fit into anybody else's mold, they make it all the way to the top so that they don't have to fit in anybody mold? They make the mold like what is that? Say more.

Skye Waterson (33:56)

can be a little bit of that. I mean, I think it's funny because when I work with business owners, they all have it. It's gotten to the point where I'm just like, I could just say I work with business owners and then that would be, yeah, I wouldn't even need to say the ADHD part. And then occasionally someone would say, by the way, I don't have ADHD. And I'd be like, that's so interesting. Because that can be how it works. But it's because of the strengths of ADHD. So when we look at the research, creative problem solving, creative thinking,

The ability to move, to move fast, to make decisions combined with, like you said, the inability to work a job. Like if you talk to a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners, they'll be like, yeah, I would not be able to do your job. That can all put you in a space where you really have almost no choice but to try and go for those top spots.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:44)

Got it. Or you work for yourself because you can't work in for anybody else. You can't focus for. That's an interesting, interesting observation that there might be more folks with ADHD in the entrepreneurship realm. That's a ooh, I never made that connection in my head. That's an interesting one. OK.

Skye Waterson (34:47)

Yeah, exactly.

changes the game,

that's why I'm so passionate about it, right? You start to rethink the whole thing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:08)

Now there's a lot of super successful like so the phrase was someone with ADHD can't handle leadership roles, but they are in leadership roles. So clearly they can handle leadership roles. It's just a question, I guess, of how gracefully and how well they handle it and how successful that business ultimately is, is probably a functional.

Skye Waterson (35:30)

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, everybody has had terrible bosses, right? Terrible, you know, entrepreneur and some entrepreneurs really don't succeed because they don't know how to handle people. If you're going to go from, you know, that 300,000 to a million space, you're going to need to learn how to work with people. You know, if you're under 300, you can kind of white knuckle it yourself, but post that you need a team. So at that point, you're really looking at, yeah, those leadership skills. And a lot of what I do is I help

simplify the scorecards and those kinds of systems and help people empower people to work through them because that's a really important part of it. But I would say with ADHD leadership, it's kind of a skill like everything else. I people with ADHD are more likely to be quick to feelings, happiness, anger, all of them. And that is a straw. And you'll probably find that there's a ton of entrepreneurs out there who have a very

specific kind of rituals and systems that they've put in place to manage their day. And that's part of the reason.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:36)

You know, that's funny as you think about some of the. This just happened to me the other day. I was I'm in Florida and I have a in our condo. We have a we had our ducks cleaned and the person who came in told me that when we were paying the bill we were settling up at the end. They said, well, there is a 3 % charge for credit card and I I personally can't stand it when that

Skye Waterson (37:02)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:06)

It's like, look, if you want my money, you need to take it however I want to give it to you. Like, come on now. Don't. All right. Three percent. That's then you write it in, raise the cost by three percent and just let me pay with credit card if you want to. But don't don't do that. But they still do. And I just wrote that off as, you know, some people being old and not understanding technology because they also could have accepted Zell with no fee. So the whole concept of a credit card being a fee. Well, you also could have Zell Venmo. There's ways for me to transfer you cash.

that doesn't cost anything. But what's funny is I just thought this is I pictured the person in my head that I pictured. this person must be one of those old people who should have retired years ago, but now they just do it the way that they've always done it. And now we're saying this and I'm going, or maybe they have ADHD and the way that they do it is the way that they do it and don't change it because then I'd have to rethink it and I don't want to.

Like that's a.

Skye Waterson (38:05)

Yeah, or maybe

that's a detail that they haven't, you know, sometimes when we are ADHD entrepreneurs, really need an EA or a director to help us like spot those little details that really annoy the customers. And if you don't have that kind of support, you can miss those things.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:23)

True. Good deal. OK, I had one more one more for you. This is a myth. So is it a myth or not? Hyper focus is a superpower of people with ADHD.

Skye Waterson (38:40)

No, it's not a superpower if you don't know how to use it. So if you don't know how to use it and the yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:42)

Okay.

Can you now rewind for people who

don't know we said hyper focus talk about context of what is hyper focus? What do we mean by that with people with ADHD?

Skye Waterson (39:01)

So hyper focus is the concept that you will get really locked into something and you will do it for hours. So once you're in, you're kind of locked in and you know, especially if it's something that's interesting to you with ADHD, you can go from not working on something to building an entire website, which I've totally done in like 24 hours, you know, building an entire website and a whole thing and just like starting a business in 24 hours or building out a new product launch.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:29)

Mm-hmm.

Skye Waterson (39:29)

And

you have, once you're in, it's like almost as if you're working memory and everything is online and you're like rushing to do it all before you lose the enthusiasm basically.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:40)

Got it. And so so the phrase was hyper focus is a superpower of people with ADHD and you said no. So now say more on that.

Skye Waterson (39:49)

So I said, I said, no, if you don't have the strategies to manage it basically, because hyper focus on its own can be really destructive. can be like, I didn't get the work that I needed to do done, but I deep dived into this new hobby that I bought $300 worth of product for, and now I'm busy crocheting a hat. You know, like that can be a day in the life of ADHD and hyper focus. So if you.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:11)

Right.

Skye Waterson (40:16)

If you channel it in the right direction towards the thing that you are actually going to do, then that works. And if you know how to step out of focus, so we talked about stepping into focus, how to step out of focus so that you don't do this thing for six hours and burn out and need a day off tomorrow to recover, then that is also doable. But unless you have those two things, you're just kind of in a world of like, what's going to take me over next? And I have no idea.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:45)

Yeah. So is there a way to... You talked about the tools. there a way, like what's a preview? What do you mean by a tool that will help you control it?

Skye Waterson (40:58)

Yeah. So the first thing I will say is that hyper-focus really is mostly for things that you're interested in. So if you're like, I'm going to hyper-focus on my really boring job, the chances are that's going to be pretty difficult. In that case, you're probably trying to like keep the hyper-focus to the weekends. If you have a job that you're interested in and you'll tend to hyper-focus on parts of it, then the problem becomes the opposite. And that's about how to stop. So the step into focus routine I taught you before, you just do that backwards.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:22)

Yeah.

Skye Waterson (41:27)

So you just go from like working on something to kind of writing notes and tinkering around like this is I'm gonna do next. Like giving yourself that working memory support. Then you like turn on music and on TV and on notifications, you write about what you've done and what you're gonna do next. And then you take a break. So you're kind of going up the stairs.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:49)

Got it instead of coming down. Okay, that makes sense. Now what work, that was my last one on the miss. So now I'm just curious in general, what are your, what recommendations do you offer someone with ADHD to be more productive?

Skye Waterson (42:04)

That's a great question. So I work on like a couple of different things. So most people who come to me, they're struggling with overwhelm, stuck or inconsistent. I don't know where to start. Even if I know where to start, I don't know how to start. And if I do know how to start, I don't know how to do it consistently. So what I teach is I support around, you know, the prioritization filter, which like I said, you can DM me on Instagram and I'll just give that one to you.

how to make really good decisions, how to step into focus, how to actually get started, which is what we talked about, organization, then ADHD dopamine. And this is a little bit different. You know, I haven't seen this one around, but essentially looking at like what, you know, think about your five senses. Like what are all the different sensory things, touch, taste, smell.

site, you sometimes we think about ourselves as overstimulated, but we can be under stimulated across all of our senses. And what can we do to increase the sensory stimulation in your workspace specifically? And how do we stack that to kind of be like, it's not that bad. There's like a plant and some music and there's like, you know, pretty things to look at and eat and stuff, you know, things like that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:19)

And now what would you also tell? So what would you tell their coworkers? Who here this advice like what? What basically? Would you tell their coworkers to share this advice or like this episode or that with them? Or if not, then what would you tell them to share? Like is it a if you work with somebody who has a hard time focusing, it's kind of hard to say.

Skye Waterson (43:26)

I'm sorry about the plant.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:48)

You know, I think you might have ADHD. You should listen to this like that. That doesn't come across well. So what advice do you give to the coworkers or the managers or that are that are noticing or seeing this stuff?

Skye Waterson (43:51)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No.

This is a great question. actually worked with New Zealand's intelligence agency to help them with this exact problem because they came to me because they were like, why everybody in our intelligence agency has ADHD. What do we do? And, know, the biggest thing is really what I, what I would expect you would do for everyone, which is how do you work best and how can I help you do that? So asking them those two questions and then trying to figure out how to help them.

with the answer to those questions.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:31)

So even a brainstorming session on helping them understand like, okay, well, like we were talking about your tool belt of if you need to dial in and be productive, what do you do? What are the tools in your tool belt? Do you, you know, is it music? Is it focused music? Is it dialing it stepping in? Like you talked about, is it, do they have three or four tools? If they don't, can you help them find some share some of yours? But that's a way to sort of like hint at it. And maybe you can share that some of those tools.

Skye Waterson (44:47)

Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:01)

do come from tools that help people with ADHD, but you're not telling them that they have a problem. You're just sharing solutions. And it's like that kind of thing.

Skye Waterson (45:09)

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't even necessarily say that they have ADHD. I make it a rule not to diagnose anybody and I literally do this. But because sometimes they could have had head trauma and you don't know, so it could be other things as well. But number one thing is I ask them how they're gonna work, how they work best because when I'm working with ADHD clients and they're not comfortable disclosing,

Then I recommend that they say that this is how I work best. work best in this environment with this kind of deadline, with this kind of support. And then they can go, well, I want you to work best. Like I want you to do your best in this environment. So let's help you with that. And then nobody has to have that conversation unless they want to have it. because it's a long journey to get ADHD diagnosed. And you might say that they, think they have ADHD and then they get diagnosed and they're

you know, psychiatrists says they don't and maybe the psychiatrist is even wrong, but they just don't like diagnosing people with ADHD. Like you go down a whole journey. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:15)

Right. Yeah,

yeah. OK, that makes sense. Now, what does this mean for you personally, Skye? Like this is a I mean, you suffer from it. That makes sense. But what is it that a lot of people go through life and never tell people about this and they try to minimize it as not a part of my life? And instead you dove in the deep end and like are all about it. So like what talk about what the thing for you.

Skye Waterson (46:31)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I mean, my vision, my goal is to build a program, which I've already built that has, you know, that supports so many business owners with ADHD who then go on to be public about it, that they have to reorganize the whole diagnostic process.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:04)

Wow, OK, reorganize how? that's a that's a lot.

Skye Waterson (47:06)

So that's what I mean by that is

like the DSM is what they use to diagnose people and every couple of years the DSM gets updated. So changes get made to the DSM and what, you know, the diagnostic and statistical manual. So when your psychiatrist diagnoses you, they, I mean, they don't really, there's no internet now, but they'd open like a big book and like look through it. And yeah, that's kind of the old school. Yeah. And so that's where the like,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:17)

DSM would have said.

right? What are all the things? Okay, got it. Yeah, yeah.

Skye Waterson (47:33)

the Bible of what it looks like to be ADHD and theoretically they're supposed to be using that. And so, you know, what I want to do, like My goal is to help, you know, with Unconventional Organisation to help so many people develop the strategies to support their weaknesses and go and develop their strengths that they have to change how they think about ADHD and what it means. They've done it before and I think they can do it again.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:02)

That's awesome. Well, Skye here, here's what thank you so much for joining me on the show today. Here's what I love. I love that you've taken this passion or this thing that you suffer from or work with or suffer from sounds like the wrong term, but this thing that you deal with and that you have and that it's now become a passion and that you're helping others with it. But really, I love that you have embraced it and love it because oftentimes when we talk about

diseases or things that people struggle with. I'm a perfect example. I'm a diabetic. I don't like talking about diabetes. I don't want to be somebody's superpower diabetes resource. I personally don't like it at all and I don't want to talk about it. So the fact that not only do you have this thing and that you've embraced it and that it is something that you love and are helping others with that. I think that's such a powerful position to come from. And so I just love that you're doing this. Thanks for sharing some of that with us today.

Skye Waterson (49:00)

Thanks, I'm happy to.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (49:02)

And for folks who want to know, you mentioned that if they you said if they message you, if they DM you direct message you on Instagram, you will send it to them. But what are what are the best ways for people to keep in touch with you if they want to keep in touch with you later?

Skye Waterson (49:09)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. So you can find me UnconventionalOrganisation.com. That's my website. So you can find our podcast, the ADHD skills lab, where we go through some of this research, we make it fun, I promise. And we also have articles. And if you want to talk to me and ask me, you know, workbooks, et cetera, best way to do that is through Instagram at unconventional organisation with an S. And I do have a coaching program. Like I said, I help entrepreneurs with ADHD.

I build a focused balanced growth blueprint for them and, we work through it together. in order to sort of apply for that, you have to reach out to me or fill out a form on the, and we'll see if you're a good fit.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (49:56)

And for all that stuff she's talking about, I'm going to go through that website, find those links. And if you check your show notes right now, it'll be linked right there so that you can check out some of these things that Skye's talking about. So, and for you tuning in, for you listening, do you have a friend or colleague who either suffers from ADHD or somebody that you've laughed about it with or talked about it with, or that shared conversations with ADHD about, would you share? Here's my request. Would you share?

the link to this episode specifically with them, send them a text, not a message, not an email, but a text to their phone. Because I know that Sky and I would love to know that our conversation today touched people that are facing ADHD and that the few text messages back and forth. That means so much more than posting on social media. Social media is a bunch of distractions anyway. So if you text them and then you get to chat with them and catch up and like that.

Skye Waterson (50:44)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (50:50)

somebody who comes to mind that you might not have talked to in a bit. If you'll share this episode with him, I think that it'd be fun for you and it would be wonderful for Skye and I. whether you've jumped in and joined my membership already or you've taken the first step of just joining my email list, or maybe this is your very first episode listening to productivity gladiator. Regardless, I love sharing Productivity Gladiator with you because together these productivity skills are going to change your life. That's a wrap.

Project Management Hacks, Skills & Tools You Can’t Get From Software or AI - With Bonnie Biafore

In this engaging episode, project management expert Bonnie Biafore shares invaluable insights about the human skills and techniques that software and AI simply can't replace. She reveals her top "non-tech hacks" for successful project management, including smart approaches to estimating, cost management, and running effective meetings. Whether you're a seasoned project manager or just starting out, you'll learn practical strategies for leading teams, negotiating outcomes, and organizing information that will make you more effective in any project role.

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The Video

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The Audio/Podcast

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References In This Episode

• The Eisenhower Matrix video (mentioned when discussing time management and prioritization)

• Book by the FBI hostage negotiator - "Never Split the Difference" by Chris Voss

• Ways to connect with Bonnie Biafore:

  • LinkedIn profile

  • Newsletter

  • bonniebiafore.com

• The Project Management Institute (PMI) Rocky Mountain Chapter

• Information about Toastmasters

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Episode Digest

In a world dominated by project management tools and AI, it’s easy to forget that the true magic of project management lies in human skills.

In an era where AI and project management software dominate conversations about productivity, it's crucial to remember that successful project management still hinges on human skills and expertise that technology cannot replicate. Here's a comprehensive look at the essential human elements that make project managers effective, regardless of the tools they use.

"The value of project management isn't in the tools—it’s in the people managing the projects."

The Limitations of Project Management Software

Even the most sophisticated project management tools and AI have significant limitations. Three key areas where software falls short:

Estimating Complexity

• While AI can provide estimates based on historical data, it can't account for the unique challenges of each project, team dynamics, and contextual factors that experienced project managers understand intuitively. The human ability to consider multiple variables and draw from past experiences remains invaluable.

Cost Management Nuances

• Software excels at tracking time and materials but struggles with complex cost factors like delays, market impact, or reputation costs. Project management tools typically can't handle varied cost types like fixed-price contracts, training, travel, or timing-dependent expenses.

Resource Allocation Reality

• Tools struggle to account for the real-world complexity of resource management - from vacation schedules to part-time availability and competing project priorities. Even advanced software like Microsoft Project can't fully optimize resource allocation across these various constraints.

Essential Human Skills for Project Managers

Here are the critical skills that set successful project managers apart:

1. Communication Mastery

• Adapt communication style for different audiences

• Learn individual preferences for communication

• Practice active listening

• Understand when and how to share information effectively

"Communication isn't just you puking up information into your audiences. It's about listening and learning how to listen well."

2. Time Management

• Differentiate between urgency and importance

• Block time for strategic thinking

• Master prioritization

• Learn to manage competing demands

3. Negotiation Skills

Key Insight: Negotiation isn't always about compromise. Sometimes you need to:

• Find what's important to others that doesn't matter to you

• Look for win-win scenarios

• Know when to stand firm on non-negotiable items

• Build relationships through strategic give-and-take

4. Information Organization

• Develop systematic approaches to managing large amounts of data

• Create logical naming conventions for files and folders

• Structure information for easy retrieval

• Balance both art and science in organization methods

"Even on a small project, you will end up having a lot of information. And then if you get on a really big project, it's ridiculous how much information there is."

5. Meeting Management

Critical Practice: Run efficient meetings by:

• Inviting only essential participants

• Managing costs by limiting unnecessary attendance

• Using a "parking lot" for off-topic discussions

• Capturing and assigning action items

• Taking detailed discussions "offline"

6. Leadership and Problem-Solving

• Develop creative thinking for unique solutions

• Build trust with team members

• Learn to delegate effectively

• Practice public speaking skills

Practical Project Management Hacks

• Smart Estimation Technique: Instead of asking for single estimates, to provide a more realistic range and helps account for uncertainty, request three numbers:

  • Optimistic scenario

  • Pessimistic scenario

  • Most likely scenario

• Buffer Management: Rather than allowing individual padding of estimates, create shared buffers at the end of task sequences. This encourages more accurate individual estimates while still protecting the project timeline.

"If you run a meeting well, people will love you and you will be able to get a lot more done in your projects."

• Task Ownership: Assign every task to a specific person, not a team or group. Use a responsibility matrix (RACI) to clarify:

• Who is Responsible

• Who is Accountable

• Who needs to be Consulted

• Who needs to be Informed

Getting Started or Improving Your Skills

For those looking to develop project management skills:

• Assess Your Skills: Review each skill mentioned above and honestly evaluate your proficiency. If it's not a "hell yes," it's an area for improvement.

• Gain Experience: Volunteer with nonprofits to practice project management skills. This provides:

  • Real-world experience

  • Opportunity to make and learn from mistakes

  • Practice in delegation (since you'll likely be balancing with other commitments)

  • Concrete examples for your portfolio

• Continuous Learning: Take advantage of:

• Professional organizations like PMI

• LinkedIn Learning courses

• Toastmasters for public speaking

• Industry conferences and symposiums

The most successful project managers combine technical knowledge with these essential human skills. While software and AI can handle many tactical aspects of project management, the strategic thinking, relationship building, and complex problem-solving abilities of human project managers remain irreplaceable.

Remember: Project management isn't just about tracking tasks and timelines - it's about leading people, solving problems creatively, and delivering results through effective team collaboration. Focus on developing these human skills alongside technical proficiency for maximum impact in your project management role.

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Project Management Hacks

02:28 The Unique Perspective of Bonnie Biafore

04:33 Limitations of Software and AI in Project Management

06:53 Estimating and Cost Management Challenges

08:57 Scheduling and Resource Allocation Issues

11:44 The Importance of People Skills in Project Management

13:48 Non-Tech Hacks for Effective Project Management

15:15 Training New Project Managers: Essential Human Skills

25:32 Mastering Time Management

27:01 The Art of Negotiation

30:25 Organizing Information Effectively

31:44 Running Effective Meetings

35:05 Leadership and Problem Solving

38:09 The Importance of Delegation

39:44 Passion for Project Management

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Today’s Guest

Bonnie biafore

LinkedIn Learning Author &
Consultant on Project Management

Bonnie Biafore is a seasoned project management expert, consultant, and LinkedIn Learning instructor with a passion for making complex concepts relatable. With over 35 years of experience, she has authored more than 35 technical books, including bestsellers on project management and financial software. Bonnie has helped businesses large and small streamline processes, improve team dynamics, and achieve project success. Her engaging teaching style and real-world insights make her a sought-after speaker and educator in the field.

Connect with her at:
linkedin.com/in/bonniebiafore
bonniebiafore.com

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. Graduates wield time management & life balance superpowers, activate a laser-guided ability to focus & prioritize, and implement a sniper-precise approach to task & email management. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!

Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:06)

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer on this show. share personal, practical, productivity skills. And in this episode, we're talking about project management hacks, skills and tools you can't get from software or AI. And with me on the show today is Bonnie Biafore, who's a LinkedIn learning author and a consultant on project management. Bonnie, thanks so much for being here with

Bonnie Biafore (00:29)

Well, Brian, thanks for inviting me. This is going to be fun.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:33)

Absolutely.

And now, you know, so we're about to talk about project management skills and hacks and that kind of stuff. So for those folks who aren't already familiar with you, tell them about you and how you're related to this topic.

Bonnie Biafore (00:43)

Well, so I was actually like born to be a project manager. You know, from a very early age, I was organizing things.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:49)

What was that? Really? yeah.

Bonnie Biafore (00:53)

drove my mother crazy. But what's interesting is I ended up going to college and grad school and had a master's in engineering and started working as an engineer and just did not like it. And just by chance, I got the opportunity to manage a project.

And of course, I knew nothing about project management, so I learned a lot by making mistakes. But I ended up, I mean, it just, came very naturally to me. And then over the years, it's, you know, the great thing about project management here,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:23)

huh.

Bonnie Biafore (01:32)

I get bored very easily. So the thing that I love about project management is one, I'm good at it, but two, every project is different. project management is never boring and there's always something new to learn. So basically if you're a lifelong learner, it's perfect.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:50)

Bonnie, you're preaching to the choir with me Like that's my that's my career also. And so I totally understand that every project is different. And that's kind of what makes it fun for me is like now you're working on this and then you're working on this. And so it keeps it interesting. I love that. That's a really good point. Now, for those, there's a lot of. ahead.

Bonnie Biafore (01:59)

It's.

And the

other thing I was going to say is, you know, I use project management, you know, in my life all the time. mean, it's, know, whether it's, you know, cooking a big dinner for friends or, you know, going on vacation or whatever it is, I am managing that as a project.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:17)

So true. Yeah.

It like happens that you don't even think about it, but you're like, well, then here's the steps to this project and here's how this is going to roll out. Totally Well, now for there's a lot of people out there who talk about project management. So what would you say makes you a little different from everybody else out there that's doing this?

Bonnie Biafore (02:29)

Mm-hmm.

Well, let's see. For one thing, I don't take myself too seriously. I mean, I can be serious, but you know, I used to write technical books and I made them funny because the things I wrote about were very dry. And you're talking about adult learners. So I would

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:49)

Okay, sure.

Bonnie Biafore (03:04)

you know, I actually had people contact me and say, I had to explain why I was laughing reading a book about accounting and bookkeeping. I, yeah, I try to, I try to, I try to make things relatable.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:17)

yeah. Got it. So you don't take yourself too seriously.

Absolutely let's let's jump into our topic then so today we're talking about. Those project management hacks skills and tools can't get from software so just for context when I said software in preparation for this I was thinking OK it's sought project management software and AI so I was thinking about you're not going to get these things from.

Asana or Trello or Microsoft Project or the AI ones like chat GPT or any of those. Now are there other ones that came to mind for you when I said project management software and AI?

Bonnie Biafore (03:57)

Yeah, well, for project management software, there are a lot of tools out there, particularly the lighter weight tools, which honestly, I think are more for work management than project management. But they're out there like Trello, Basecamp.

I use Basecamp just to keep track of all of my to-dos, my infinite to-do list. But, you know, other ones that are kind of at the middle level, which are probably worth, you know, talking about, we've got monday.com, Wrike, and Smartsheet is...

is interesting because it's, it's, it really is like a super smart spreadsheet, but they've added a lot of things to it. So like those, those three, you know, when I, cause I've evaluated a lot of tools and they're, you know, they're pretty good. And when you get to that high end, like you said, Microsoft, you know, particularly if you're going to go to project online,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:49)

So.

Bonnie Biafore (04:57)

If you have lots of projects and if you have very complicated projects, then Project Online and Primavera can handle a lot. However, they often require a knowledgeable consultant to get them set up. I have people, it's like I work with Project Online, but...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:15)

big time. Yeah.

Bonnie Biafore (05:22)

I could not set it up for somebody. It's just, it's very complicated and primavera as well.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:28)

So let me ask you this, Bonnie, Like even with the advanced software and AI that's available, what can't they do?

Bonnie Biafore (05:31)

Yeah.

Well, there are a couple of things. The first one I will mention is estimating. And the thing about estimating is you can actually get that from, particularly from the AI side.

However, there's a lot of estimating given again that every project is different. Every project has a different team, has different challenges. That's where having just having that je ne sais quoi of knowledge in people's heads of, you know, given

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:54)

Yeah.

Bonnie Biafore (06:07)

Given what we're looking at or given these constraints or given the people who we have on the project, here is my estimate of what it's going to take. then you can also, for example, one of the estimating tools that I really like is the Delphi method, where you get a bunch of experts together and you say,

know, come up with your estimate and then you share the estimates. You don't share like why, but you just share the estimates amongst the group. And then if somebody, you know, estimated a lower amount, they might start thinking about, why, know, hmm, maybe I forgot. And you do a couple of rounds of that until everyone starts to get, you know, closer.

to the same number. And so, yeah, I mean, in some ways, you could say, oh, well, you know, we could get like three AIs together and, you know, they could do the same thing. But honestly, right now, I would not trust that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (06:53)

Yeah, they come to a consensus of sorts. They all started at different places. Yeah.

my god, like total side note Bonnie, I have to share this with you. It's so funny that you just said that because I totally do that. And what I think about it like it's it's knowledge by committee in that I inherently don't trust an AI because they like the best metaphor is that my gosh, it was I did a there was a show we were talking about. It's like having an intern. They're really smart.

Bonnie Biafore (07:22)

Yes.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:33)

but like book smart and they're not street smart. So the stuff they say is like, I don't know. So I will feed it to one and then I will copy and paste from one into another and ask, is there anything about this that doesn't make sense? And I will like, so it's almost the Delphi method that you just talked about except using AIs. I totally do that.

Bonnie Biafore (07:33)

Yeah.

So I think that the experience that people have...

in a lot of cases that they really can't explain. They just have this intuition and you know when you think about just the amount of experience that that people have you know even I mean even someone who's 20 years old they've still had 20 years worth of experience and that stuff is just sort of simmering in there and you you just can't get that from from tools.

So that's one thing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (08:24)

got estimated.

Okay, that's a that's a really good one. What else

Bonnie Biafore (08:27)

The

second thing is cost management. Now, I will start by saying...

my first couple of projects were, you they were very small projects. They were very informal, small, small teams. And, you know, like I didn't, I didn't actually, you know, have to do like a formal risk management plan. And this one project like really didn't have a budget, you know, cause it was just, it was very small. was mostly me. So I just did it. However,

you know, if you're going to, if you're really going to do projects smart, you want to say, okay, what is the goal of the project? What are the outcomes that we want to get from this project? And, you know, is the cost of the project, you know, worth the outcomes? You you have that business case that you need to achieve. So,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:17)

No.

Bonnie Biafore (09:19)

you know, so you're going to have a budget or you're, you're, may be tracking revenue, know, increased revenue, what, what have you. And honestly, like the, all of the software tools really don't do a good job at all on cost management. They don't, they don't have the features to, track the different kinds of costs. I mean, they, they will to some extent, but

You you think about the, just the variations of costs that you can have. And a lot of times it, you're just, you're having to force it to, I mean, I tend to with, with projects, I end up outputting data and using spreadsheets and. You know, outside of the project management tools, because they, really, they just don't handle costs.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:51)

No.

Right. Because the because the time

in the time and materials are the two things that the project management tools can track. Right. Like people's time. How many hours? How many people at what rate they do that? And then they of course have. All right. And now we have to buy these materials or these softwares or these whatever fixed priced things. That's one. But then how do you factor in the price to delay by a month? Because you like then this is going to cause.

Bonnie Biafore (10:34)

Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:35)

CNN to pick up the news and then that's going to make you the stock price go down. I mean, like there's like you can't possibly that project manager software can't do that. It's just time and materials. That's what they do.

Bonnie Biafore (10:38)

Yep.

Well, and

yeah, and then there but there there's also there and there are other there are other kinds of costs. I mean, you know, you have things like, you know, travel or the cost of a training class. If you if you have if you're bringing a contractor in on a fixed price contract, and then and then there's also the timing of the costs.

Like when, because they don't, I mean, you're right, with time or with labor, yes, the tools can track when that labor cost occurs. But when you have something like travel, so when do you want to have that appear in the project?

Same thing with the contractor, things like, permits, different things like that. So there are a lot of things that, I know that, for example, some of the tools that I looked at, they wouldn't even handle the labor costs. You would basically just put a cost on a task. That was it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:44)

Wow, yes.

Well, hopefully it's. Tens of thousands of this many tens of thousands of dollars in labor costs, but if we go over by a month, then it's going to be way beyond that and you can't subdivide that. Wow, that yeah, it's true. I love that. So estimating. And cost control.

Bonnie Biafore (11:57)

Yeah.

the another one, and I do, I'm not sure I have a funny story about it, but another, another thing that tools don't do a very good job with is even if they offer like Gantt charts for scheduling. So you actually have a Gantt chart and you can, you can create dependencies between tasks. And it's like,

I have a schedule, great. But the tools, when it comes down to, first of all, when you start assigning people to tasks and then they go on vacation or something else happens or there's a delay and then that person isn't available, they can't start until a certain date, there's just, there

or people work different, they don't work full-time, they have varying schedules.

And when you start taking into account all of these different things that happen with the people who work on the project, there just aren't enough features to make that happen. And so the somewhat funny story is, you know, I use Microsoft Project a lot and I have spent hours, probably days, maybe even weeks.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:57)

Yeah.

Bonnie Biafore (13:13)

playing around with the resource allocation tool in Microsoft Project to try to get it to work out when tasks need to occur based on the various constraints in the project. It's like, no matter what I did,

it really just, can't do it because it's very complicated. I think there are probably some software tools out there that...

that people have put together specifically to handle those things. But that ability just does not seem to be available in all the main tools on the market.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:03)

It makes perfect sense that that would the more complicated the the more many different factors there are the more they interplay between each other and even though even AI is good at even understanding some of that scenario, but it can't you know, what's funny is this all circles back to the one note I made for myself going into this episode. The first thing that came to mind for me was all the people stuff. The people stuff is what

Bonnie Biafore (14:27)

Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:29)

AI software, none of it can do right. You got you got to deal with all of the people as a project manager. You're dealing with all the different personalities. You talked about hours. You talked about somebody going on vacation. You got this person's part time and they only work on Fridays, which means even if you plan it for a five day period, but they don't get it that Friday, it's going to be a whole nother week because I mean, like the and it's not even that like the person's part time. It might just be you only have access to them for.

Bonnie Biafore (14:35)

Hmm?

Yes.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:57)

four hours a week because there are other projects too. I would like there's so all those different factors. And that's where the beauty of your brain, you as a human being, you as a really experienced project manager, that's where you deliver. The value is all of the people stuff because they cannot outsource that to software.

This is maybe like a random question, but I want to ask you since you've been in this game for a long time. Bonnie, what's the what are your some of your favorite non tech hacks that you can use to manage projects effectively? What what comes to mind for you?

Bonnie Biafore (15:27)

Okay,

the first thing is if it isn't offered to you, ask for contingency time and money for your project.

And that contingency time and money can be helpful in a lot of different ways. I first of all, when you think about risks, there are risks that you can identify. And if you can identify them, you can plan for them and you can plan how you're going to handle them if they actually occur.

But then there are there are unforeseeable risks. And you, you need contingency to handle these things. Because you can always if you have your risks that you identified and you you put, you actually put some money into the budget and time into the schedule to address those things.

just have it there that you can use. then there's then there are the things that you really can't foresee and that contingency time really comes in handy.

how you choose contingency time. A lot of times companies will, they will have a percentage that they will, you know, allocate based on the budget for the project. And, you know, and if they, if they have something like that, then that, that's what you get unless you have some way to, you know, to convince them otherwise.

The other thing, which is somewhat related to contingency time, but it's a little bit different, is when you have your project schedule and you have all these tasks and you have certain tasks that come in a sequence that leads up to a deliverable and there are all these different parts.

If you ask people to estimate, going back to the estimating, here's a people thing. You will have people who will pad their estimates when they give them to you because they want to have that flexibility. It's human nature. If you want to succeed, you're going to do that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:30)

Sure.

Sure.

Yeah.

Bonnie Biafore (17:36)

The next thing is project managers will pad the estimates that they give to management again to make sure everything goes well and that they in the end look good. so the thing is, first of all, so how do you know whether an estimate is padded and how do you know?

how many levels of padding went into the estimate that finally gets to the person who's going to approve the project. I mean, it's just.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:00)

it.

Bonnie Biafore (18:06)

It's almost impossible. here is my hack.

What you do is you add shared buffers in your schedule. So at the end of a string of tasks, you will have a buffer that can handle things that go wrong, delays and someone getting sick, whatever it is.

But not every task is going to be a disaster. instead of, and if you explain to people, it's like we have a shared buffer. So you don't have to protect yourself in your estimates because we've added these buffers to the sequences. And that way,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:34)

Right.

Bonnie Biafore (18:49)

You know, and I'm not saying it's going to be instantaneous that they're going to feel comfortable, but just working with people and letting them know that that is there. basically, you know, we've got CYA built in. You have a much better chance of having more accurate estimates that are not padded.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:08)

And that's also helpful because then you, you call it out specifically in terms of this is how long that I think it's going to take at the time. And this is the buffer. And so you do differentiate that. So when you're the project manager, you can look at that and know that, and you can share that with higher ups Yeah. that's a, that's a really good point. I like that.

Bonnie Biafore (19:26)

Yeah.

And another related point to that is you also don't ask people for one number.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:37)

Hmm. Yes, three, right? Low, medium, high, right? Give it to him. Yeah.

Bonnie Biafore (19:39)

Yeah, well

it's actually pessimistic, optimistic, and most likely. And the most likely might not be right in the middle. The most likely could be closer to the optimistic or closer to the pessimistic.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:54)

Ooh, I like those words. Yes, you know I love

I like those words so much better pessimistic optimistic and most likely and you're right.

Bonnie Biafore (20:04)

that and that's now there there are some software tools out there that can actually work with you know with that variation because I mean you think about

financial software. mean, whenever I go to like my financial advisor and then they show me the graphs of all the possibilities of what my investments might do. And they're all over the place and projects are the same way. So there is some software that can handle that, for the most part,

what you do is you can use a formula to calculate the number that you want to use based on the pessimistic, optimistic, most likely. And then you add that with your buffers and your contingency to give yourself a chance to succeed.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:54)

No.

Yeah.

You know, Bonnie, I've got one that I'll throw in here too, I think of it as a non tech hack, but one of the biggest mistakes I feel like is tasks get lost in the group, meaning, we have to do this or we have to try this or we have to, so every task has to be assigned to a person.

And you as the project manager hold that one person accountable. Because what happens is this team provided this thing and then you have feedback which goes back to the team and everybody on the team went. I thought you were doing it and it's like no I didn't. sorry. we didn't do it and so instead it's always any of your tasks that you give have somebody's name attached to it and it's their job to lead it. Even if they're not doing it, they're the one that's fielding it or something.

making sure that when you give a task, it's associated with a person. I think that's huge.

Bonnie Biafore (21:49)

I agree with that. going to do a yes and. So in addition, you absolutely need to have an owner for everything. But there is a form in project management called the responsibility matrix.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:53)

yes, Ann! Let's do it! Yes, Ann!

Bonnie Biafore (22:09)

What that does is it actually has multiple levels. So you have the person who is accountable for something, which is your owner. But you also have people who will be consulted on this or who will just be informed.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:15)

Okay.

Yes.

Bonnie Biafore (22:32)

or

who is responsible. So you'll see it a lot of time as RACI because one of the problems is something gets dropped and that nobody does it. And another problem, which in some cases could be even worse is when you have more than one person who is determined that they are going to be in control of something.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:54)

Yes. Yep. And then you got competition on who's actually gosh. Yeah, well, that's a really good point. Well, Bonnie, what's. Let's do what I want to do. This is the one question, and I feel like this is one of the gold parts of this this episode that we can talk about is, let's say you're training a new project manager. What are the human skills or techniques?

that you would prioritize over software skills. so that you listening to this, if any of the things we're about to list, because I've got my little thoughts that I was going to share, and I know Bonnie, you probably got some too. So as we run down this list, if any of these things are weak spots for you, there's going to be opportunities here on finding this, because I think these are the human skills.

Bonnie Biafore (23:29)

Okay.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (23:41)

that you need to be successful, no matter how big or how small your projects are, this is what you bring to the table, regardless of the AI environment that we're in right now. So yeah, go ahead, Bonnie.

Bonnie Biafore (23:51)

Okay, well, I am going to preface this by going back to what I said when I was describing my life as a project manager is project managers need to be able to do a lot of different things. They need a lot of soft skills. They need a lot of technical skills. There are a lot of things that they need to be able to do and

you will be you will be learning throughout your career. So don't don't kick yourself if you're you're going dumb dumb dumb I didn't know how to do that it's it's just it's going to take time. So I actually and I made a I made a list because there are a lot but

The first group is these are things that come up right away and they are super important. So the first one is communication. And that is...

That is not just communicating with people. It's about understanding that you have to communicate differently to different audiences. You need to do background to understand. You also have to have the wisdom to learn people's preferences for

how they are communicated with. It's about listening and learning how to listen well. There's so much and one of the great things about learning to communicate well is

know that's not just for project management but that that applies to everything you do in your life so

that's the first place to start.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:30)

Yeah, this is good. Keep going.

Bonnie Biafore (25:33)

next one is time management.

because there is so much to do. I worked on this one project with a big telephone company. even though I was working for one of the small companies that was part of the project, I had so much to do.

I was working really long weeks and you know, the different time zones. So like I started super early and a lot of times I would work past everyone else was gone. I was the only person in the office.

You have to, you have to be able to, to manage your time. You, you need to understand prioritizing. need to understand the difference between, it's a Stephen Covey thing. It's uh, urgency and importance. There are things that are urgent and they are not important. And so you have to learn.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:32)

Yep.

Bonnie Biafore (26:36)

to not get sucked into those and you need to learn to prioritize and actually put longer periods in your calendar so that you can actually think about the things that are really important but that aren't urgent.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:52)

Yes. Yes,

prioritizing that stuff. it's the Eisenhower matrix, which Covey is is referencing. I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, I like that, Bonnie.

Bonnie Biafore (26:58)

Mm

Yeah. Another thing is negotiation.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:05)

yes.

Bonnie Biafore (27:06)

because regardless of the size of the project, regardless of how many people are working on it, I work on projects where I am the only person on it and I'm still negotiating with myself, which proves to be very challenging.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:22)

so true.

Bonnie Biafore (27:25)

You will be negotiating with executives. You will be negotiating with vendors, with contractors, with team members. There will always be things to negotiate. so it's worth learning.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:47)

Bonnie, I want to yes and with you on this one, because this was one of mine that I brought to. But the point that I want to make, too, is that there's different kinds of negotiation, right? I feel like sometimes negotiation, if you're coming in from the outside or depending on how much experience you have, negotiating might just seem like, all right, I start here and they start there and then we end up in the middle. And that's like compromise. And when you're a project manager, there are times where there is no compromise. You are negotiating to get your way.

100 % and there is no negotiation, but it's going to feel like a negotiation back and forth. So sometimes you're good meeting in the middle. Sometimes they're wrong and you need to get them around sometimes. So it's like it's negotiating in different. Maybe it's not different forms. That's also there's a little bit of sales and a little bit of selling. You like there's a lot that goes into that. But when we say negotiation, it's just not always meet in the middle. That's not negotiation.

Bonnie Biafore (28:25)

you

Mm-hmm.

And another thing with when you're in those negotiations where it's not compromise, you know, one of the techniques that I really like is that idea of at least attempting

to find something that is important to the other person that you don't care about. So you can you can give them something that they want that really just doesn't affect you at all and and then they'll you know they'll be hopefully more more willing to you know give you something that is important to you. So and it's it's interesting how often that

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:03)

Yes.

Totally.

Bonnie Biafore (29:22)

that really is true because people have different things that they want.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:26)

Yeah, if you show up in your eye when you lose, nobody wants to lose. So then you just turned it into a fight that it didn't need to be.

Look, here's how it's going to work out. Here's the way we want it to work out. And when it does this way, it's going to be good for us for these reasons. It's going to be good for you for these reasons. It's not always a lose. That's a really good point.

Bonnie Biafore (29:45)

Yeah,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:46)

All right, what else you got on that list?

Bonnie Biafore (29:46)

Okay,

so I have two that go into the category of part art, part science. And the first one is organizing lots of information.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:57)

Okay.

Ooh, okay.

Bonnie Biafore (30:04)

Because even on a small project, you will end up having a lot of information. And then if you get on a really big project, it's ridiculous how much information there is. And I'll go down to even a micro level. One of the things, because I did a lot of technical writing, I'm a pretty good writer.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:15)

Totally.

Bonnie Biafore (30:25)

Even getting the points you want to make in an article, like a short magazine article, getting the points you want to make in an order that makes sense can be really challenging for a lot of people.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:41)

Yeah.

Bonnie Biafore (30:41)

Because

if you jump around, it makes it very difficult to understand. So organizing information really applies from the micro to the macro level. And I say it's part art and part science because clearly there are document management systems that can help you. I have these weird

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:47)

area.

Bonnie Biafore (31:07)

little techniques that I use just in terms of naming folders and files to keep things organized. you know, it's always funny when I see how other people name files and it's just like, how can you possibly find what you need? So

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:15)

Yes.

God, tell me about it.

Bonnie Biafore (31:26)

So that's where the art comes in of just thinking about how you are going to make the information easy to find, easy to understand. And then it's part science because you can use tools and there are all sorts of ways to do that. But that's one of them.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:44)

Yeah.

Bonnie Biafore (31:45)

And the second one is, this second one, you will have a fan club if you master this one, and that is to run meetings well.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:03)

OHAHAHA-

Yes, yes, preach sister. Yes, I love it. my God. I'm always saying that man. I teach my number one session right now at conferences. I'm getting booked all over the place for this one and the name of the session is this meeting could have been an email. And like, my gosh, yes meetings. This is my so keep going. I'm sorry I interrupted because I got so excited. No, you're saying yeah.

Bonnie Biafore (32:09)

Because...

Mm-hmm.

Okay, as

a project manager, one of the reasons that running meetings well is particularly important in a project is when you have a task in a project for a meeting, the more people you invite to the meeting, the duration does not change, but the number of work hours and the cost involved

goes up very, very quickly. So you want to make sure that you have the people who need to be at the meeting and they need to be there and no one who doesn't need to be there. That's.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:02)

So and you know, can we just say, Bonnie, if you were working with a contractor or a project manager or someone who is doing this and they are not good about this and you're part of you're on the side of the people that are paying the bill, please be vocal about these people do not need to be here because you're right. If they're making 50, 100, 200, I mean, some of these contracts, if you look at them, 500, 600, 1000, some of these attorneys are making multiple thousands of dollars an hour.

You do not want to pay that person's bill to just sit there if you don't need them in the meeting. So yes, good point. like man. Yes.

Bonnie Biafore (33:40)

And the other thing, the other part of that too is, and I see this all the time and I...

and I'm pretty brutal about this because I just I can't stand it is you know the people who are very passionate about whatever the particular thing is that they're talking about and there ends up being this focused conversation about this topic and there will be you know eight other people sitting there going

And it's like, take it offline. know, do the thing where you have the parking lot on the whiteboard and it's like, okay, this is for you to take it offline. Let us know how it turns out.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:10)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, totally.

Bonnie Biafore (34:22)

And you know, like I've called people on that. I usually don't do it publicly. But after the first time it happens and I know that somebody tends to do that, I just will make sure that it doesn't happen. But yeah, if you run a meeting well, just like people will love you and

you'll be able to get a lot more in your projects if you, you know, one, don't waste people's time, but two, actually make the meetings effective. You know, make sure that, that you've, you've captured all the action items you, and you've gotten owners for those action items. just it goes on and on.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:50)

Yes.

Yes,

totally. My gosh.

Bonnie Biafore (35:05)

And then there are another couple that are very important. I will say some people are naturals at these, other people are just gonna have to work very hard to learn it, practice it. First one is leadership.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:10)

Okay.

Yeah, OK, certainly.

Bonnie Biafore (35:23)

Some people are natural

leaders if you aren't a natural leader It's gonna take a lot of work, but you can learn to lead But it's it you so you know take the time I've

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:34)

Yes, I agree.

Bonnie Biafore (35:40)

You know, when I go to the project management Institute, I, I'm actually, you know, involved with our, our Denver, the Rocky mountain chapter. And so we have this big symposium every year and the keynote speakers, they're not always about leadership, but the ones. The ones that have been about leadership, it's amazing. The, the, the nuggets that you get, just from listening to someone and you're like, yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:04)

Mm-hmm. So, all right.

Bonnie Biafore (36:05)

That's something I can

apply. and then the other one, the other one is problem solving.

Problem solving is, you know, because there are always problems in projects. There's always something that you have to sort out, figure out, like, what are we going to do about this? So.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:22)

Yeah.

What and you know what I by now at this point, so I'm going to have listed these in your show notes and if there's any of these that you don't look at and say confidently, if this is a hell yes or no situation where you look at that thing on that list and you're like hell yes, I'm good at this or. If it's not hell yes, if you're like well, maybe or a little bit. No, that means no, and that's where your opportunity is and take some courses on.

Like I like like Bonnie said, you're not going to this isn't you're not going to be an expert overnight. It's not like you missed this class in college or something. A lot of the stuff is you just haven't had to face it before. And so you learn it. But go down this list that you're looking at. And if any of these things are things you don't have, then look into LinkedIn learning. Obviously, you can find Bonnie on LinkedIn learning so you can take some courses there. They're not super expensive. A lot of the stuff is available online. You can ask chat GPT about it. You can.

Some of these things are good, but also it comes with just practicing it and doing it. So get the education, but then try that experience too. I hope that you dig in.

Bonnie Biafore (37:27)

And the thing with

problem solving that can be challenging is the fact that a lot of times problem solving requires creativity. And if you're not a creative person, that will probably not be one of your...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:36)

Yes.

Bonnie Biafore (37:41)

you know, really strong skills ever be just because you need to be able to think out of the box a lot of times.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:48)

sure. Well, Bonnie, I've got two that I'm to add and then I got one more question for you. So two that I wanted to add that as I as I was because I had made my list to the couple that come to mind first is public speaking. If you don't already have the skill of public speaking or like it's a hell yes or no. If I ask you, are you good at public speaking? If you don't answer, hell yes. Then practice is real easy. And that's Toastmasters. If you haven't already signed up for Toastmasters.

Bonnie Biafore (38:08)

Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:14)

There's they've got something called a competent communicator where you can. It's a certain amount of speeches that you have to give, but it's really just that continuous practice. Everyone that I've watched who has struggled with public speaking, who has consistently done Toastmasters all the way through and gotten, they got like a couple of levels. So go finish a couple of those levels of Toastmasters. That's a real opportunity there because you're going to need it when you're running projects. It's always public speaking. It's going to be a skill.

Bonnie Biafore (38:39)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:40)

I think that one's a big one. And the other one is delegation you cause the project managers that sink are the ones who don't know how to give the task to someone else and then let them do it because there's so much to do. Like Bonnie said, you know how much she was working hours and hours and night, like there's always going to be more to do than you have time to do. So being able to leverage the team and give away the stuff and not keep it for yourself is a skill.

Bonnie Biafore (38:51)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:08)

And so if you didn't, if I said delegation and you didn't say, hell yes, I'm good at this, then it's time to practice and it's time to work on that a little bit. And you need to learn the most successful people are the ones that can use a team to accomplish a big thing. And so being able to delegate and work with people that are smarter than you and better than you and get the stuff done like, so good.

Bonnie Biafore (39:23)

Right.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:30)

So I wanted to share those two and Bonnie, one last question I wanted to ask you is clearly you've got a career in this. What does this mean for you personally? Is there a personal story about why you're passionate about project management and still working in the field all this time and.

Bonnie Biafore (39:45)

Well, you know, in some respects, I mean, I'm passionate about it in part, like I said earlier in the session that, you know, it's...

It's my nature. A lot of the things that you do in a project, they're just things that, like I'm just wired that way. I like the fact that things are always different. even take the example of, know, I worked as an engineer. I was like, well, that wasn't really quite right. Then I started managing projects.

But then, you know, and I did that for quite a while, but then I got into this thing where I started, you know, writing technical books. And, you know, I published like 35 books, and some of them are huge, like they're really

Some of my books are actually more like weapons, you know, than anything, because they're so heavy. And then, you know, I got into consulting and training and then doing the courses for LinkedIn learning. You know, like I have done so many different things, but through, you know, it's just that project management is just, is the theme through everything that I've done. And so now I mostly...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:39)

Hahaha

Okay.

Bonnie Biafore (41:00)

train. But, you know, people contact me all the time. And every once in a while, they'll, you somebody will have something that sounds interesting, and I will get involved with it. But so it's, it's just, yeah, it's, I just find it, I just find it to be fun, difficult, challenging.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:11)

Okay.

Bonnie Biafore (41:19)

rewarding. And the other thing, the other thing that is really cool is like I actually spend a lot of time volunteering now. And let me tell you, like nonprofits,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:29)

Yeah.

you-

Bonnie Biafore (41:32)

When they find out

that you're a project manager, mean, I'm managing all sorts of projects for these different organizations because, think about it, they need to do a lot with very few resources and very little money. And a project manager is really helpful with that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:42)

Yes.

And Bonnie, for you listening, that is an amazing opportunity right there. if any of the things we just listed, the skills we just listed are things you need to practice and you're not already getting them at work, you could volunteer with a nonprofit to be their project manager and learn all of these things. And what's great about that is we just talked about delegation and how that's important. Well, if you're volunteering for them,

Bonnie Biafore (41:56)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:17)

You still have a career. So you don't have the time to go in full time for them too. So you have to learn how to just manage the project and let other people do the things. And so like that's like such a golden opportunity for folks who want to get better at this. my God, Bonnie, I'm so glad you dropped that little nugget. That's that's awesome.

Bonnie Biafore (42:18)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So I

have people, I have had so many people on LinkedIn who will send me messages and like, how do I get experience? Because a lot of times companies don't, they want people to have experience. So, well, how do I get experience if no one will hire me as a project manager? And it's like,

And that is my main piece of advice is volunteer. That could mean volunteering within the company you work for. I've done that. But it could be volunteering with a nonprofit. then you start and here, so here's the path, at least as I see it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:56)

here for

True. Yep. Yep.

Bonnie Biafore (43:15)

is you so you volunteer, you start doing just all the regular stuff that that people they need volunteers for. And you look for places where, you know, things aren't efficient, or they aren't effective, or, you know, they're disorganized, and they're not achieving their goals. Then you can say, Hey, I, you know, I, you know, notice this, and I was thinking we could we could do a project to

achieved this outcome and I'd like to manage it. Most of the time they will go, thank you. And then you get a chance to practice and you get a chance to make mistakes and learn from them. So, yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:49)

Yes.

Yep.

Bonnie, I love that we ended up on that nugget. That is beautiful. Well, so Bonnie, here's what I love. I love that you've kind of spent this whole career doing all these interesting different things and it's all centered around project management. And we got to talk about the things that are not available for software from software and from AI on that. And so I love that.

Your life path has led us to this episode so that we could do this and that you're spending your life helping with these things. I just think it's very cool what you're doing. And so thank you for spending a little bit of time with me today to talk about this stuff. I think this is really helpful. There's some good nuggets in

Bonnie Biafore (44:31)

well, I really enjoyed it, so thank you for inviting me.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:34)

Yeah. And for people who want to keep in touch with you, if they want to circle back, or what's the best play for them to keep in touch with you?

Bonnie Biafore (44:40)

Actually, really the best thing is on LinkedIn. You can send messages or if you end up going, I actually, in addition to my courses on LinkedIn, actually do events called office hours on LinkedIn.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:56)

this.

Bonnie Biafore (44:57)

They're live events, but you can watch the recordings after the fact. a little bit like this. In fact, the format is a lot like this. I also have a weekly newsletter so people can comment on things or send me messages. That's probably the best way. You can go to, I have a website and you can send messages there as well.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:03)

Yeah. Yeah.

You got it.

Well, I will. Those links will be in your episode notes so you can check those out as well. So and for you tuning in, do you have a friend or colleague who does project management or knows that that's a part of their job or struggles with it or anything? If you would share the link to this episode specifically with them, I know Bonnie and I would love to know that our conversation today touched people that are facing project management and hit and and at the crux of where

Bonnie Biafore (45:41)

you

Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:45)

Well, there's all this software out there. Yes, you as the person are still super important. So imagine if your friend who you hadn't talked to in a bit sent you a text message like that and you guys got to catch up, wouldn't that would be that's the type of meaningful communication that I hope that you can enjoy because of this episode. So please send them a note and whether you've joined my membership or you've taken the first step of just joining the email list.

or this is your very first episode listening to productivity gladiator with you. love sharing this with you because together these productivity skills are going to change your life. That's a wrap.

18 Tasks I Outsourced That Changed My Life (And How You Can Too) - With Marcey Rader

Ready to win back hours of your life? In this episode, productivity experts Brian Nelson-Palmer and Marcey Rader reveal 18 tasks they've successfully outsourced - from hiring a culinary grad to chop vegetables to finding affordable ways to never do laundry again. They break down exactly how to decide what to outsource (including a simple calculator to determine if it's worth it), share hilarious stories like the infamous "single Brussels sprout" delivery, and offer practical tips and examples for both your personal & professional life. Whether you're just starting to explore outsourcing or you’re experienced and looking to level up, this episode packed with actionable strategies shows how you can reclaim your time without breaking the bank.

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The Video

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The Audio/Podcast

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References In This Episode

Photo Reference: The "single Brussels sprout" photo (from the funny grocery delivery story Marcey Rader talked about)

• Brian's Value of Your Time Calculator

  • Referenced in relation to his TED talk

• Marcey’s TEDx Talk - “Relentless pursuit of more”

• Meal Services:

  • Factor 75

  • Blue Apron

  • Hungry Root

  • Gobble

• Virtual Assistant Services:

  • Fancy Hands (fancyhands.com) - mentioned $18-30/month

  • Fiverr (fiverr.com)

  • FreeUp (freeup.net)

  • Upwork.com

• Home Services:

  • TaskRabbit

  • Thumbtack

  • Chore Relief (now called All Better)

  • Poplin (laundry service)

• Contact Information for Marcey:

  • LinkedIn (mentioned she's only on LinkedIn)

  • helloraderco.com

  • Her new book: "Reclaim Your Workday, Sustainable Productivity Strategies for the New World of Work"

• Photo of Single Brussel Sprout on episode page

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Episode Digest

Time is our most precious resource, yet many of us spend countless hours on tasks that could be delegated or outsourced.

In a revealing discussion between productivity experts, a powerful truth emerged: outsourcing isn't just for business owners or the wealthy—it's a strategy anyone can use to reclaim their time and focus on what truly matters.

"There is no prize at the end because YOU did it. The prize is…I got to my outcome, whatever that was, in a way that was smarter."

The Complete List: 18 Game-Changing Tasks to Outsource

Personal Life Tasks

• Gift wrapping (use Amazon’s wrapping service, or hire local students for holiday perfection)

• Food prep and vegetable chopping (professional food prep services)

• House cleaning (regular cleaning service)

• Laundry (wash-and-fold services with pickup/delivery)

• Grocery shopping and errands (delivery services)

• Travel itinerary planning (local experts via Fiverr or AI tools)

• Screen repairs (specialized handyman services)

• Home repairs and maintenance (TaskRabbit or similar)

• TV mounting (skilled technicians)

• Furniture assembly (service providers via apps)

• Cooking/meal prep (meal delivery services)

Professional Tasks

• PowerPoint presentations (design services)

• Bookkeeping (professional accountants)

• LinkedIn/market research (specialized researchers)

• Graphic design (professional designers)

• Software/tool setup (technical specialists)

• Podcast production tasks (virtual assistants)

• General virtual assistant tasks (various administrative support)

How to Decide What to Outsource

The decision to outsource shouldn't be complicated. Here's a practical framework:

1. Calculate your time's value (use a time-value calculator)

2. Compare outsourcing costs against your time's value

3. Consider these key factors:

   • Is it a repetitive task?

   • Does it require specialized skills?

   • Could it be dangerous if done incorrectly?

   • Do you consistently procrastinate on it?

   • Is it a one-time task where learning the process isn't worth the investment?

"Every day that you procrastinate and you move that task forward, ‘I'll clean the gutters tomorrow, I'll clean the gutters tomorrow, I'll clean the gutters tomorrow.’ Every day that just makes you feel like I failed today, I failed again, I failed again, just outsource it."

Three Models of Virtual Assistance

• Pool Services (like Fancy Hands):

  • A pool of people available, like Uber, but for tasks

  • Membership-based ($18-30/month)

  • Best for occasional, varied tasks

  • Perfect for beginners

• Fixed-Price Contracts (like Fiverr):

  • Clear scope and cost upfront

  • No risk of unexpected charges

  • Ideal for specific, defined projects

• Hourly Assistants:

  • More traditional virtual employer/employee relationship

  • Ongoing support for regular tasks

  • Best for consistent, recurring needs

Practical Tips for Getting Started

• Start with Free or Low-Cost Options

  • Try grocery delivery & other errand services (often just $5-10 for delivery)

  • Test basic task services before committing to bigger ones

• Begin with Repetitive Tasks

  • Think about how often you do certain tasks.

  • Think about time spent vs cost to outsource.

• Address Safety and Quality Concerns

  • Use platforms with reviews and background checks

  • Start with low-risk tasks

  • Take safety precautions when someone is coming into your home.

"Think of it as an investment and you will get it back with your time, with your energy. Maybe you will get promoted faster."

Common Objections Addressed

"But they won't do it as well as I do"

Solution: Be prepared for that, you’re still getting some of your time back even if it isn’t perfect it still may be worth it. Remember that perfection isn't always necessary for every task.
Example: For tasks like grocery shopping, order an extra item if there’s a chance they’ll pick one that doesn’t work (like produce) or pick your substitute and have a backup plan in case something is out of stock or they bring the wrong quantity. For the 1 in 10 times they don’t do it right, you’ll be ready.

"My company should pay for this"

Reality Check: Don't limit yourself by waiting for company approval. Consider personal investment in professional development as a path to advancement.

"It's too expensive"

Perspective Shift: Consider the cost of your time, including stress and lost opportunities. Often, the investment pays for itself in reclaimed time and energy.

Real-World Success Strategies

• For grocery delivery: Order 4 items when you need 3 to ensure quality selection

• For house services: Use platforms with reviews rather than random classified ads

• For professional tasks: Start with one-time projects before committing to ongoing services

• For virtual assistants: Audition them first. Begin with a small project to test compatibility

The key to successful outsourcing is to start small and gradually expand as you become more comfortable with the process.

Remember: The goal isn't to outsource everything, but to strategically free up your time for what matters most, whether that's personal joy, family time, career advancement, or personal development.

Every task you successfully outsource is an investment in your most valuable resource: your time.

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Outsourcing and Productivity

06:03 Defining Outsourcing: What It Means

12:07 Personal Experiences with Outsourcing

18:07 Outsourcing Food Preparation and Cooking

23:59 Outsourcing Errands and Grocery Shopping

29:35 Leveraging AI for Travel Planning

36:03 Outsourcing Home Repairs and Services

41:10 Professional Outsourcing: Enhancing Productivity

52:50 Starting Your Outsourcing Journey

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Today’s Guest

Marcey Rader

Speaker, Coach, & Author on Productivity

Marcey Rader is a speaker, coach, and author who champions health-powered productivity™. Founder of RaderCo, she works with Fortune 500 companies and startups, inspiring global audiences. A multi-award-winning speaker, TEDx presenter, and one of 900 Certified Speaking Professionals®, Marcey’s authored four books and created the Powered Path Program™. Her mission is to help individuals and companies reclaim their workdays and build sustainable habits to work well and play more!

Connect with her at:

marceyrader.com

helloraderco.com

linkedin.com/in/marceyrader

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. Graduates wield time management & life balance superpowers, activate a laser-guided ability to focus & prioritize, and implement a sniper-precise approach to task & email management. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!

Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. On this show, I share personal, practical productivity skills. And in this episode, we're talking about the tasks that we've outsourced to save time and never looked back, both personally and professionally. And with me on the show today is Marcy Rader, who's a speaker, coach, and author on productivity. And she's the founder of Rader Co. Marcy, thanks so much for joining me on the show today.

Marcey Rader (00:42.675)

I'm excited to talk about outsourcing because everybody can outsource something and it doesn't matter. Even if it were personal, doesn't matter your position, you can outsource.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:54.56)

everything personally, professionally, it's available to everybody. I've been, I did a Ted talk on the value of your time and like this whole concept, it's all baked into there. And I've been so excited to actually do an episode on this. So thanks for doing with this, Marcy. This, I'm excited we're doing this together. And so now talk about your background. So we're to talk about outsourcing and productivity and stuff. talk about how you're relevant to the topic we're talking about today.

Marcey Rader (01:17.911)

So Raderco has been around for 11 years and we are a health powered productivity company. And what that means is that it doesn't matter how many boxes you check off your to-do list, if you're losing sleep to do it. It doesn't matter how fast you respond to your emails, if you are doing it at dinner with your family and it's affecting your relationships. So it's about being productive for the right things, but without sacrificing your health and relationships.

And we work with a lot of companies, both individuals and teams around their email management, email and chat tool management, their meetings, meeting effectiveness, how to manage their task and prioritization. But we are always looking at it with that health aspect. Do people take screen free lunches? Are they working as if they have to always be available, checking their email at night or on the weekends?

And so we are a team that is out to save the world when meeting and email at a time.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:23.622)

man, Marcy, you and I are so aligned. It's not even funny. So for anyone who's interested in productivity gladiator, Marcy is like, yes, absolutely. Everything you just said is exactly the kinds of things. And my whole motivation for me is about you. You only have one life.

we're going to make you more productive so that you can have do more of the things that you love so that you can have the memories when you look back at the end are not going to be because you were more productive. So you did more work and like, yes, my gosh, preach.

Marcey Rader (02:57.271)

Can I, I do want to preach for a second on that because you mentioned that you did a Ted talk. I did a TEDx in 2024 called the Relentless Pursuit of More. And it was really about living the first 40 years of my life, I'm 50 years old, being such a high achiever and such a perfectionist that

It seriously affected my health. I was diagnosed with Hashimoto's disease, which I believe that I triggered through that. I didn't have a period for 12 years because I put myself in such stressful situations. And for the men out there, that's serious. That's not, know, it sounds like it'd be a great, you know, great convenience, but it's actually really dangerous for your body.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:49.262)

yeah.

Marcey Rader (03:53.745)

And it really affected my marriage. I traveled 48 weeks a year for almost a decade. We're cool now. We're great. But it was part of the reason why I started my company. so, you know, there are goals to chase, but not at the expense of someday. Like someday when I get a promotion, then I'll slow down or

Someday when I make X amount of money, then I'll hire somebody to help clean my house. Someday when I run the marathon, then I'll be home on Saturday mornings. So it's really a reset and rethink of what our goals and priorities are. so if you're trying to do everything yourself, know that there is no prize at the end because you did it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:51.405)

Yes.

Marcey Rader (04:51.827)

And the prize is that I did, the outcome, I got to my outcome, whatever that was, in a way that was smarter. And maybe, and I guess this is a good segue for outsourcing, maybe I hired somebody along the way to help me get to that outcome so that I didn't sacrifice other things that were important to me. And I gave this person a job as well.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:17.518)

Mm hmm. Totally. You know, Marcy, on that topic, I'm curious. You you talk about productivity. I talk about productivity. There's a lot of people that talk about productivity. So the one other thing I want to ask you is what do you think makes you different from everybody else out there that's talking about productivity like we

Marcey Rader (05:35.351)

For me, think part of it is the health piece. My degrees are actually in, my bachelors and masters are in exercise science and health promotion, but I worked for 14 years in clinical research in the pharma and biotech world and climbed up the ladder as high as I wanted to go. And so I think having that health background, but also that aspect of being a perfectionist, being a, you

super high achiever and I'm still, you I still have goals. Of course, I still have achievements that I want to do, but it's a, you know, I have put myself in the dumpster, you know, and, I've, and I've been able to get myself out of it. And if I had been someone like 13 years ago, even just 13 years ago, if I had started this business, well, even five years ago, the way I approach things are different.

than I would have 15 years ago, 13 years ago, 10 years ago, because I suffered those things that I did. And it wasn't really until about four years ago that my husband told me how desperately he missed me when I was out, know, jet setting around the country and everything, but he never wanted to tell me because I was the primary earner. And so when I look back, I made a lot of mistakes.

And I definitely have regrets and I don't think regrets are bad. I know some people said no regrets or whatever. Well, I believe in the book, The Power of Regret and regret is where we've where we've learned and earned our lessons because I believe we earn our battle scars. So it's lessons earned and you know.

I got a lot out of that and I think it makes me a much better coach and speaker because I can attest to the things that, you it's not all about getting the most done. Just like, you know, it's like when we die, it's not like the person with the most toys wins. You know, it's the things that really matter.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:47.768)

Totally. Well, let's jump into outsourcing then. And one of the things to kind of set the stage, I want to clarify that when I came to this, my thought was I want to clarify when we say outsource, what are we referring to? And in this case, to me, when I thought this, I'm referring to basically the idea that it's no longer going to take my time. So we're going to talk about outsourcing and some of these things you might pay for some of these and some of them might cost more than others, but some of these things are free.

And it's still outsourced because it's not taking my time. So that was my frame of reference. Did you have anything to add on that, Marcy, or is that track?

Marcey Rader (08:23.709)

No, but I'm glad that you clarified it because when I first started my company, this is so hard to believe that 11 years ago, it was considered like, whoa, what? To hire overseas, to outsource to a virtual assistant, or to hire somebody from Fiverr. And so sometimes when I would use the word outsource back then, people would think it was like,

manufacturing, outsourcing product and things like this. And so I'm with you like outsourcing to me means hiring somebody to save me time doing something that I don't want to be doing or maybe I'm just not good at.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:07.116)

Yeah, totally. All right. So that's the kind of outsourcing we're talking about. And then I guess I have my frame of reference for how the question is, how do you decide what to outsource? And so for me, I actually have a very methodical approach, which is I have a calculator. So for you listening, if you go to productivity gladiator.com and you scroll down, there is the value of your time calculator and you can find out what your time is.

And so I did, that's the Ted talk that I did that was picked by Ted and it was became an editor's pick and they like promoted it on their website and socials and stuff. And I talk about kind of the frame of reference for the discussion we're going to have now. We're going to talk very practically on what we outsourced, but the decision on when to outsource it or if like where those opportunities are for me, it's a, if I know my time is worth this much and I can pay less than that.

to have somebody else do it, then those are my first opportunities that I'm looking at as opposed to things that are the other way around. So that's my approach to how do you sort of decide. What is it for you, Marcy?

Marcey Rader (10:14.529)

Yeah, before I say that, I'm just gonna, being picked by Ted is a really big deal. So congratulations. Congratulations. Yeah, that's awesome. That's awesome. And I was so thrown by that, that I need you to ask me the question again.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:26.094)

Felt pretty good. You can go for Boston over here. So that's the question is how do you decide, like how do you make the decision on I should outsource this or I shouldn't outsource this?

Marcey Rader (10:37.416)

yes.

Marcey Rader (10:41.963)

Yes, so first of all, that's awesome that you have this calculator and I have determined, like I have a set rate hourly. I don't charge by the hour because I believe in value-based pricing, but in my head, I have an hourly rate and then I have, and I worked this out with my CFO and then I also have another rate that is kind of like the, this is what my time was worth to me.

And so when it's business related. I think about, you know, like, what's my time worth? Is this person's time worth going to cost me less? But also is is this something that I only need to do one time? If so, it's not worth it for me to do it. And an example is I just bought I'm switching scheduling systems, I'm such switching.

from one scheduling tool to another. To set it up, is not a good use of my time to go through all the learning modules and do all the setup. I don't need to know, I don't need to learn how to set it up. I need to learn how to work it once it's set up. So I hired somebody, I outsourced the setup, she'll set it up.

and then she'll just train me how to use it now that it's in place. Because I don't believe in spend. I love learning. am number one learner and strengths finders. If you know what that means. So it's not that I don't believe in the in learning. It's that there are certain like if it's something that I'm going to learn that I'm going to continue to use, then I want to know the ins and outs of it. But I don't need to know how to learn something.

that's only going to happen one time if there's an expert that can do it and save me. So that's that's one way I look at it. I also look at like, do I just hate do I hate doing like, is there something I just don't like doing or I'm so not good at it and I don't care that I'm not good at it and I don't even care about becoming better at it? And that is gift wrapping. When I wrap a gift, my gifts at Christmas.

Marcey Rader (13:02.935)

People know, they know it's my gift under the tree. It looks like a five-year-old wrapped it. Like I don't make the paper long enough. It's so bad. I like half the box will be showing and I'm so frugal that if I make the paper too short, won't like, you know, I won't throw it away. I will just use it. Sometimes I'll make like a patch. It is so, so bad, but I don't care.

But so I have, I know, I know, but I have actually outsourced gift wrapping.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:39.352)

to Amazon? I was gonna ask you, you, I always check the box to gift wrap it for me. It was the best, everybody knows it's my gift under the tree because it was wrapped by Amazon. That's just great stuff.

Marcey Rader (13:49.495)

No, I hire somebody. So I have hired a high school student that loves to wrap gifts. And I think I paid her like 50 bucks one year and this girl and she came over and wrapped all my gifts in like, it was like an hour or something. I don't even know if I paid her 50 bucks. It was probably more like 30 bucks. It was so worth it and it was, they were beautiful. know, so, so, so that's also a way that I look at it is

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:56.856)

Nice.

Marcey Rader (14:18.933)

Do I care about getting better at wrapping gifts? I don't because I only do it once a year. And she loves it and she needed the money. So I look at it that way too.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:31.83)

Yeah. So I love what you said about, is it something that you are interested in or like that's, and I talked about it in my Ted talk too. It's like things that are worth your time are like, are you going to learn something? Is it going to be a fond memory that you look back on forever and ever? Then it is worth the time. Like you could, you could hire somebody to paint the house. Or if you do that with your son or your daughter,

and that's gonna be a memory that you have forever and ever and ever, then it doesn't matter how much it costs to have somebody else do it, you should do that. And so those are like, learn something, does it bring you joy? Cause if it brings you joy, my gosh, like every one of the things that we're about to list, every one of the outsourcing opportunities, if it's something that brings you joy, don't outsource that. Do outsource the things that don't bring you joy. That's, I love, yes. So I love your point, man.

Marcey Rader (15:23.483)

That brings up a good point. So in my business, it took me a long time to outsource my bookkeeping because I actually really like that. I like going in and reconciling my account and I do it. I did it every I do every Friday. You know, and I liked it. And after a certain point, I was like, this is not my my time is worth more than that. I should not be doing this. But I held on to it for a while because I just really like it. So.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:33.581)

Mm-hmm.

Marcey Rader (15:53.409)

So I agree with you for that. But I thought of one other thing that is another rule for me is, is this dangerous? Because we just put on a new screened in or put a new roof on our screen and porch. And my husband is very handy, but he also knows his limits. Like if it's plumbing, that is a skilled trade that if he messes up, like it could cause a flood or it could be something really bad.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:01.934)

I'm

Marcey Rader (16:23.255)

An electrician, he's not gonna mess with that because that is a skilled trade and it's almost like an insult to the skilled trade, but also it could be dangerous. So I also think of those types of things. Could I be doing something that could, if I try to fix something on my car, could it turn around and haunt me later as I'm stuck by the side of the road?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:30.242)

Right. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:46.444)

Yeah. Nice. Yep. I love that the danger point is a really valid one. So let's jump into things that we've outsourced. Let's just start running down. And Marcy, figure you go first, and then I'll share one, and you share one. And let's start with personal stuff that we've outsourced that, my gosh, have been game changers. So you first. Go ahead. What you got?

Marcey Rader (17:09.975)

I already said the gift wrapping, so good. Food prep. So for four years, had a woman until COVID and then, you know, everything changed during that. But she came in every Thursday. I had a produce box delivered on Thursday mornings and she would come in and chop all the vegetables for like a week. You know, like she chopped everything. And she actually had a degree in culinary arts.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:11.99)

Nice.

Marcey Rader (17:39.765)

So she chopped really well. Like it looked great. And so I didn't have to, and I really liked to eat healthy, but I'm terrible at food chopping. And so she would chop all my vegetables. I've had somebody that would, after her, that would come in and chop everything. And then she'd also make a couple of meals as well, which was, and you know, so then I would have those to eat throughout the week.

But the first woman, she also did our laundry and she cleaned the house too. But a lot of people have house cleaners. That's not a creative way to outsource. It's an awesome way to outsource, but it's not really creative. But a lot of house cleaners don't do food prep and also your laundry. So we called her, her title was house manager. And this is what she did full time.

She had one house that she went to every day. She came to ours on Thursdays. She would chop vegetables, she'd clean our house, and then she would do our laundry. And this woman folded clothes like the gap. I mean, it was so perfect, so perfect. And I miss her so much. that, when I would tell people that, you know, it's like, I have a house manager. it was amazing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:43.999)

and do the laundry.

Yes. huh.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:00.67)

And Marcy, love that I'm going to yes and a couple of things on this. First, the cooking thing. I have totally outsourced cooking for years and years. And the reason I did it is because I'm first of all, it's the it's the worth my time thing and it doesn't bring me joy. I am capable of cooking. I absolutely can do it. And it doesn't bring me joy to be in there and do it. I tend to.

put it off to the last minute or I'm like, I'm hungry now. I'm gonna eat something and then you eat unhealthily because you do that. So for you listening, if you haven't checked it out, there are services like Factor 75, which is a meal prep service where they have a five-star chef make you a meal. It's fresh, never frozen. He cooks it. They put it in a container. They ship it to you in a freezer container. And then it's like a microwave meal that's fresh cooked by a chef. And you can get six meals, eight, 10, 12 meals a week or something like that.

So if you're one of those people that goes out and eats crappy lunches because you're on the go or, hey, we're gonna, I didn't think about lunch. So then you go down and you go to McDonald's or whatever. This is, it's like 10, 12, $14 a meal, something like that. So it's the same as you would spend going to a fast food place, but it's way healthier. You can lose weight this way. So that's the full service option. They also have, if the cooking brings you joy, but.

The actual going to the store part doesn't. They have services that you've probably heard of by now like Blue Apron, Green Apron, Blue Apron and stuff like that where they send you all the ingredients and the recipe and all you have to do is prep it. That's another way to do it. There's the latest one that I haven't tried yet, but my God, Marcy, I'm excited to try it is they have a casserole style one where they send you the casserole.

Marcey Rader (20:30.903)

Blue apron.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:49.034)

in a dish and then you just have to put it in the oven to cook it on the day of or something like that. So anyway, I've gone way down the rabbit hole on. Yeah. Yeah.

Marcey Rader (20:57.737)

No, I want to add something to that because this is serious stuff here. I tried all the like blue apron and Hello Fresh, but it's still a lot of work because you have to prep all that stuff. So I for the last like year have been using Hungry Root and Hungry Root is one of those delivery services that you pick your meals like I picked four recipes for the week.

and you can choose between two servings, four servings, six servings, eight servings, I think. But most of the vegetables already come prepped and some of the meat already is cooked and you just have to like heat it or something. So I don't have to pull out the knife very much and I love it because it's all fresh. But most of it, like the peppers are already chopped up or.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:46.968)

Yes.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:52.717)

Yeah.

Marcey Rader (21:53.099)

You know, the cabbage is already shredded. I'm like, this is the, it's the go between, like between the Hello Fresh, which takes a lot of work and what you get, which is the, you know, just pop it in the microwave. So I'm a, I'm a big hungry root.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:05.006)

Yeah.

And by the way, for you listening, I'm going to give you links to all this stuff. It's going to take me a minute to get all these in the episode notes, but I am committed to giving you the link to every single thing that we talk about on this. So check your notes if you want to see all of the stuff that we're talking about, because I'm going to yes and you there, Marcy. The other one that my wife and I found was a service called Gobble. And Gobble was the in-between between your hungry root and my factor where they chop almost everything, but you do still get to chop one vegetable.

So it's like, and they give you all the sauces already pre- and so all you have to do is throw it in a pan and you have to chop what, I don't know how they know, but they just know that if you have to prep too much, it's too much. So we're going to give you one thing to do that exists too. And it-

Marcey Rader (22:55.415)

to do well some recipes I might have to chop a cucumber or something but I'm hungry but I can do that

Brian Nelson-Palmer (23:01.548)

Yes, totally. Well, so it's funny, you brought up house cleaning. That was one of mine. House cleaning and laundry. I haven't done my laundry in 10 years and I don't miss it and I'm very good at it, but it just isn't worth my time. There's a service called poplin that I used for years and it's a wash and fold service and it's like a dollar a pound. So it's the same price as if you went to the laundromat and brought it to them.

but they include pickup and delivery. And it's literally like Uber, but for people who love washing and folding laundry. So you put your laundry outside and the laundry fairy or the Uber, the poplin person comes and picks it up and then they bring it home. And then 24 hours later, they bring it back and it's a dollar a pound that includes the delivery and the pickup. it is the most, it smells wonderful and it's folded immaculately, like you said, because these people just love doing laundry.

And I loved supporting them doing what they loved with this.

Marcey Rader (23:59.617)

Yeah, yeah, yes. I know some people find it very meditative. I'm not one of those people, but yeah, that's awesome. I love that service.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:08.206)

You know, and Marcy, the one that I wanted to share is that's different from what you've said already is errands. I outsourced errands. I haven't been to the store in I think 2012 was the last time I went to the store because I get it all delivered. And man, that seriously, I used to go to the store three, four or five times a week. I added it up. It was roughly seven hours of my time. So I talked about my little calculator.

Marcey Rader (24:25.714)

me too.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:37.014)

I went online and I found out I right now I value my time at about 30 bucks an hour. It's changed over the years. It's gone from 15 to 30 depending on my financial situation. But there is a number and I know what it is. And so the thing is the air at the delivery for groceries is free depending on what you do or like five dollars or it's something very reasonable. So if I can get an hour that's worth thirty dollars to me back for a five dollar delivery charge.

Then I'm totally in. And the one thing that Marcy, whenever I've had, I do these discussions. have this is this what we're talking about now is one of my keynote speeches that I that I give my presentations, workshops that I do. And whenever I bring this up, the number one thing that you listening might already be saying is, well, they don't pick vegetables as good as they don't pick fruit. I know it's that's the that is the number one objection. It's like, they don't know.

Marcey Rader (25:27.653)

gosh, I hear that.

Marcey Rader (25:35.895)

vegetables.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:36.552)

Right? that's, and so here's, here's my, this is my response to that, which is first of all, remember what I said, which is if you love going to the store and if bringing, if picking vegetables brings you more joy than all the other important stuff in your life, then by God, go pick your vegetables. I support you. However, for me, if you think about you go to the store and you're not quite sure how to pick something, you're going to ask somebody who works at the store, what's the good one to pick? And these people all work at the store.

Marcey Rader (26:00.629)

Mm-hmm.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:06.348)

They know what the good ones are. And so for every 30 vegetables that I get, maybe one or possibly two are not gonna be as good as the one that I might have picked. But the amount of time that I saved, I'll just, if I need three, I will order four just so that they'll give me their top four and I pick the top three from that. And so it like, you accommodate that risk per se, but.

Man, absolutely, you can, errands are such a time suck. So if you can not run errands, I have so many stories, hilarious stories about not running errands that I love to share, but this is just one that I'm like, I'm so motivated on errands. Don't run errands.

Marcey Rader (26:48.183)

Yeah, well, and with the vegetable thing, I knew you were gonna say it, because I hear that all the time.

Marcey Rader (26:58.081)

groceries either not I don't have them delivered but I go and pick them up and somebody else shops for them and again I would I would shop the same just like you said there has only been like three or four times where I've had to write to the app and say like this wasn't good or whatever and two of those times I had asked for a pound of Brussels sprouts and the person put one Brussels sprout a sprout

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:25.432)

No!

Marcey Rader (27:29.015)

in a bag, in a bag, wrapped the bag and put it in the cart. And I thought, this person has never eaten a Brussels sprout in their life, because they would know that nobody eats one sprout. So I took a picture of it. But then I also both times cut the, cut the sprout, sauteed it, put a little bit of balsamic over it, put it on a plate and send that to the app company as well. And I said, I'm, I'm eating my single Brussels sprout. Please tray.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:29.272)

What?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:39.502)

Clearly.

Marcey Rader (27:58.613)

your people better. But yeah, I still have a picture of my Brussels Sprout.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:05.302)

And you know, don't stress about every one of these companies that does these grocery deliveries. They build into their whole system. The fact that their people are going to screw one up because they didn't pay attention to whatever the serving size was or whatever. So when you go in to report these things, it's not like a long process where you have to call somebody and then these companies don't even want to talk to you. If there's a problem, you can just go in and say, I got this wrong. And they will just give you the credit back and you.

Marcey Rader (28:16.214)

Yeah.

Marcey Rader (28:26.87)

No!

Marcey Rader (28:32.757)

Immediately. Yep.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:33.344)

order another one. There's no conversation. It's an immediate resolution to your problem in like 20 seconds, 30 seconds. So it is not a big thing. So yes, errands. That was my next one. Any, what else comes to mind for you on the personal front?

Marcey Rader (28:40.939)

Yes, yes.

Marcey Rader (28:45.772)

Yes.

Marcey Rader (28:51.285)

Yeah, well, I think now I would use chat GPT for this, at least for part of it. But in the past, I have hired people from Fiverr to create travel itineraries for me in the city where they live. So when we go, yeah, when we go on vacation, example.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:08.749)

No.

Marcey Rader (29:14.709)

I find somebody on Fiverr who lives in San Diego who will create a four day itinerary for me. Here's what we like to do. Here's where we're staying. It was very customized for a hundred bucks. And you you can spend hours, hours researching and this person even like, here's a list of gluten-free.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:31.979)

Awesome.

many hours, yeah.

Marcey Rader (29:42.325)

restaurants in the area where you're going to be on this day. Don't go here because the seals smell like it was so good. Whereas now I think I would outsource I would outsource to chat GPT. We are going to on a big New Zealand Australia trip in April and I will use chat GPT to help me at least like narrow down or give me ideas.

for me to start with because you can get lost in travel trying to figure out itineraries.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:11.982)

So, yes.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:19.15)

I want to yes and you there because that's literally one of the examples when I when I do an AI session and we talk about AI for productivity That's one of the examples that we actually use is you've got eight hours Between the time that you're done on your work travel and the time you have to be at the airport So what can I do in these eight hours? So you can feed chat GPT or whatever AI you use Claude or Gemini or whatever one

you go on there and you type in, I'm at this location. I've got to be at the airport in this many hours. What are the top rated tourist things that I could do in this period of time that would be on the way? And it will do all of that for you. And that's, I just, man, you were trendsetter, Marcy, because I didn't even contemplate like getting somebody in Fiverr to do that. That would be.

But when chat GPT came around, was like, this is amazing. Yeah, they can find.

Marcey Rader (31:17.195)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's there's actually an app called Giftstar that uses AI and I've used it. If you put in people like I put in my friend Lisa and my husband and different people and get like say their interests and your price range and all these things, it will come back with gifts for them. But like I always choose experiences and

you put the zip code that they're in and it'll come back with links to experiences in that zip code. So that is a way to outsource too, if you don't wanna just be, know, just trying to fill your holiday shopping that way.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:02.222)

Totally, totally man. That's I love love that use. I've got another one for you, which is and you you alluded to this when you talked about the roof or whatever, but when it comes to home repair, there are services like thumbtack or chore relief or boy, there's one more that and I'll put the links in the task rabbit. Yes, that.

Marcey Rader (32:26.199)

Task rabbit. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:29.516)

they will go, they'll actually come do the chores. So the latest one is that I was using it to find somebody who would come and repair screens. I had a couple of screens that were damaged in the hurricane. And so, you know, it's one of those things where they're just the screens flapping free and I could go buy the screen repair kit and watch the YouTube videos and figure out how to do that. But when you look at how much of my time that's gonna take versus how much it would cost,

I found out in my area, the going rate for somebody to repair a screen, including all the supplies, is 50 bucks. And it was like, sold. I would rather let you, because I don't have the right tools and I don't know how to use them and I could learn, but I'm not passionate about screens. I just want the bugs to not come in. like, was a sort of home repair is definitely, there are websites that are dedicated to helping you find people. And for some of the stuff, like a screen repair,

Marcey Rader (33:08.181)

Yeah, no brainer.

Marcey Rader (33:12.459)

Yeah.

Marcey Rader (33:18.325)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:27.916)

You talked about license stuff, so plumbing or electricians where that stuff that requires a license and there's danger and stuff. Some of the stuff is just you don't want to do it. Assembling Ikea furniture is what we're installing TV mounts. There's all the stuff you can do around the house and that you can totally find people to do. And they don't necessarily need a license or some type of some of the stuff, maybe not insurance that you can totally do that.

Marcey Rader (33:55.989)

Yeah, and I wanna, so first of all, if you are single, like I had a friend who outsourced through TaskRabbit, she bought a big screen TV and she's like, I can't carry it up the stairs. I need somebody to mount it. And so, I mean, she helped him because it was so big, like she needed to hold it whatever, but I think she paid like $30 or somebody for the, but she said, I need somebody to do this. And she didn't have any friends that could help her and things.

So that's one thing, but I don't know about the two that you mentioned. I do know about TaskRabbit, so you might want to share. But I like something like that better than Craigslist because TaskRabbit has reviews and you're paying through TaskRabbit and not just some rando on Craigslist. And we have had some randos on Craigslist that are like, yeah, that's not good. That's not good.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:40.184)

Yes.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:45.867)

Yes.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:50.078)

Hahaha!

Marcey Rader (34:54.037)

With TaskRabbit, it has reviews for certain things. are background checks and things. So I would go with that type of thing, especially if you're having somebody come into your house. And just for the fee, you know, if you're female, one thing I do, if I'm by myself and somebody's coming in, in my house to outsource, no matter who they are what they're doing, I will often call somebody

that I know and say like so-and-so or text somebody and say, you know, the cable person is here or whatever. Text me every 20 minutes until I tell you they're gone. You know, and then that's just a safety thing for females. I've even called somebody and just had them listening. Like I just had the phone in my pocket while I was, know, men don't often think, you probably are like, I've never even thought about that before.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:43.843)

Nice.

Marcey Rader (35:51.147)

But my girlfriend, Shane, if there is any kind of man coming into the house to do any kind of service work, we always like call, you know, just say like, text me in like 10 minutes or whatever. This turned it from outsourcing to safety in your home.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:51.79)

Thanks

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:03.31)

Totally. I love it.

safety, but all of this is part of it, right? You're dealing with somebody you don't know. So I love that you brought that up because you're right. As a guy, I don't think about that as much. And that's something that for all you ladies that are listening, you should still outsource the stuff that you can. And when you do, this is just how you do it. So Marcy's your pro. I love it, Marcy. That's, that's awesome. Can we, let's shift gears and talk about professional stuff now, things that you've outsourced. So what comes to mind for you professionally?

Marcey Rader (36:10.517)

Yes. Yes.

Marcey Rader (36:31.67)

Yeah.

Marcey Rader (36:36.791)

So a lot of people that work for companies think I can't outsource anything. Wrong answer. So one thing is your PowerPoint presentations. I have seen the most horrible PowerPoint presentations. I used to create the most horrible PowerPoint presentations. People that work in companies and when I worked in companies are notorious for putting books on slides. It's nothing but words.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:42.584)

Wrong.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:03.623)

God. Yes.

Marcey Rader (37:05.047)

and people end up just reading them, they're terrible slides. And a lot of what you put on a slide is not proprietary. And so you could outsource on Fiverr or Upwork or something like that, give them the information, have somebody put your slides together. And if you did have something, you know, super like a graph that's well, know, proprietary or something like financials or whatever, you can add that later.

but there's so much like little tiny like formatting stuff and lots of time wasted for PowerPoints and you don't need to be doing that. And often if it's something like say that you have to present to your board every quarter and it's always the same slide template and all you're doing is switching numbers in and out or whatever, have somebody do it for you. And then all you're doing is switching stuff out every quarter and you will look like a rock star and who cares that you didn't do it?

because when you were hired, you did not say, I am the best at making PowerPoints that you will ever meet. You know, like I'm going to be number one at PowerPoints. They don't care about that. It's not about you're not. And you're not going to be promoted because of your ability to create the PowerPoint. You're going to be promoted because of the what the outcome of the PowerPoint is, the final product. So that's one of my go tos. Like you don't need to be doing that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:30.764)

Marcy, I want to yes and you on that because the other thing, if you don't know how to do this already, it's time for you to go explore the AI tools and figure out how to have the AI tool make the first draft of PowerPoint slides, that kind of thing. Because I agree with you, if this is going to be a public thing that you're going to present for people that are more than like, we're talking two levels or more above you, I would absolutely get a pro slide. It would be worth it to me.

to spend the $10 on the expense account that you have or whatever, 15, 20, $30 to have a fiver, go in and make that thing really look good because that's gonna be your impression. So it's more than two people or if it's gonna be very public, absolutely the ProHelp is good. But for the everyday slides, if you're not good at it, you can totally copy and paste this whole text of this report and say, I need to give a presentation on this report. Please give me slides for this and AI will create

the slides for you. And if you don't know how to do this, this is one of, know, Marcy and I were talking about Googling and, or something that you're going to do over and over again, that's worth learning. I'm telling you right now for the rest of your work life, this is one that's worth learning. Make sure you know how to do this one, cause it's going to be good.

Marcey Rader (39:46.263)

Yeah. Yes and use AI to say like, this is what's on the slide. These are the different slides, but then hire somebody to make the slides. Cause AI is not going to make it look good on a slide, but you could have somebody then take that information from Gemini, ChatGBT or whatever, and then put it on the slide and make it look good.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:11.31)

I think you're right. That's where a lot of the back and forth is going to be, is if you already know what you want to say on the slides, especially to the text, you know exactly the text that each one's going to have and they just need to make the slides and make them pretty. That's going to be way more efficient because most times the back and forth with the people making the slides is going to be, well, I didn't like this on this slide and you said too much on this slide and a lot of it is it's the nitty gritty. So I love that point. Good point, Marcy. And you know, on this one, my

Marcey Rader (40:36.139)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:40.576)

Well, the one that I was going to share is a virtual assistant. I've had virtual assistants since 2008. have, I love, love, love being able to outsource. And this is for me personally and professionally. I have them do so much stuff that I don't want to, don't want to spend my time doing, or is it worth my time doing? But the thing I want to share that I think is helpful context is when we talk about outsourcing, I want to share the three kinds of virtual assistant setups that you can have.

that are probably helpful for you listening. the first one is, if you've got an, it's almost like, fancyhands.com is the one that I use, but it's, these are, it's a pool of assistants. So I want you to imagine like Uber or Lyft, where you got a bunch of people that are out there that can all do tasks and you put your task in the queue and somebody, whoever's available comes and picks it up and does it. Any of that kind of stuff.

That is a it's a membership. It's a flat rate. So it's like 30 bucks a month or you can even get down as little as $18 a month. If you've never hired a virtual assistant before and you're like, God, Brian and Marcy are talking about this and I've never done it before. If you want to know where to start and you want the shallow end, this is the dip your toe in the pool and don't spend too much money. $18 a month for fancy hands dot com. You can totally do this and try it.

have them put together a trip itinerary, have them do some of the things that you hear. If they can do it by searching the internet or being on the phone, that's your place to start. And this is the, that's the Uber model. So there's three models. That's model number one is the Uber like service. The middle, the next one is, yes.

Marcey Rader (42:19.607)

Wait, Brian, I do one thing from Fancy Hands? Can I say one thing? A company that I worked with about 10 years ago, they had a subscription to Fancy Hands. And for their employee of the month or whoever, they got to use Fancy Hands for that month on anything they wanted. So they could use it for work.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:43.278)

So good.

Marcey Rader (42:43.499)

They could use it for work. They could use it to research where to put grandma for her, know, assisted living, which was something somebody did that they didn't care, but they pulled their, their team. was a small company. I think it was like 15 people. And they said, would you rather get a gift certificate somewhere, you know, parking space, or to be able to use fancy hands with this many credits a month. And everybody was like, fancy hands. Isn't that awesome?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:11.828)

hands. Yep.

Marcey Rader (43:13.431)

That was such a great use of... I know!

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:14.734)

Smart, so smart. Yes, so so fancy hands is your first one, right? This is where you got credits and it's a fixed cost each month, so you don't have to worry about budget or blowing it or that kind of thing. So that's option number one. Version number two of virtual assistance is where you have a it's a fixed price contract. So think about it like Fiverr. Fiverr is where you know exactly what they're going to do and exactly how much money it's going to cost.

The same idea is if you're going to have somebody work on your house, you want to get a quote first so that they don't just run up the bill and all of sudden it's going to be a whole bunch of money. This Fiverr and those at fiverr.com is the one that the example that I'll give you. But this is where you know exactly what they're going to do and you know exactly how much it's going to cost. So there's not a risk of running up the bill. So that's your fixed price outsourcing. And then the last one that's worth you knowing, if you weren't already aware of this, is then it's the pay by the hour, almost like an employee thing.

And my favorite resource to start people on for that is called freeup.net. And what they do is they go out and they have interviewed virtual assistants from all over the world and they pick only the top 1 % of the really good ones. And so you go on there and you say, I need somebody who will do this. And it's an ongoing thing you're going to need regularly and you will just pay somebody to do it. You can have them. They'll give you the top two or three people that are really good and you can interview them. And then you just get started.

and it's not an employee, it's not like hiring somebody full time, this is just a really somebody you can outsource to. But that model is one where you pay them for their time. And so that's one where you wanna be clear on what they're doing because they can run up the bill because they're gonna keep working on all the tasks you give them and they're gonna charge you for all the hours that you work. So just wanted to share that.

Marcey Rader (45:06.353)

Yet you have to say spend no more than two hours on this task or something like that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:13.208)

Totally. Absolutely. So virtual assistant is one. And on that same topic for me, actually having someone do setting up the podcast stuff, it's funny. I'm really missing them right now because like I do these. I I host the show. And for the longest time, I had people that would do it's the it's the it's the nuanced stuff that it takes to crank out an episode. You edit. You need to create the Web page. You need the social media post. Make the clips. Do the there's so much of that.

And so I have not, I've been doing it myself for a little bit. And my gosh, in next year, that is one of the first things that I'm doing is I have all of the steps written out. I just need somebody else to do them. So that's one that man, outsourcing tasks like that, which take a ton of time and you could pay someone in overseas, maybe the Philippines or India or something like that. They don't have to be the smartest of the smart person. If you can lay out the steps. gosh, that's a big one for me.

Any other, what else professionally? Anything else that comes to mind for professional outsourcing?

Marcey Rader (46:19.649)

Professionally, something else that I've used was, I've used them for image search for any kind, like for PowerPoints things like that. But also, mean, this is kind of professional, but it's also kind of personal, I guess. I have hired graphic designers to design logos, but also like one of the,

people that worked for me, she had this major faux pas once and we laughed about it. And as her anniversary gift, I had to make a graphic, which then I then put onto a t-shirt. There are quotes that I have that I have had them make and put onto a t-shirt. it's, know, things like that for your business, if you have it, or for your clients.

That is really easy to do as well. just research clients in general. I have used them to comb LinkedIn and find me 50 people in Salt Lake City that are interested in X and work for this size company because I'm going to be going out there.

and I want to be able to network and whatever. So I have used, I have outsourced from a work perspective to do that as well. And so if you, if you're a manager and you have a sales team or maybe you manage, because I worked in clinical research and so we worked with a lot of doctors. mean, that is a way like, use somebody that loves data.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:54.158)

Yeah.

Marcey Rader (48:11.751)

And that's all that they love. I mean, I hired this guy that his joy was to comb LinkedIn and find certain people that fit a certain profile. Like he loved it. He felt like a detective. And so, you know, that's what we used him for. He loved it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:20.43)

Fuck.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:25.826)

huh.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:30.574)

Yes. And you know, when you're, we're talking about professionally, we talked about, if you haven't, like, again, I have the calculator that'll tell you what your work time is worth per hour and what your personal time is worth per hour. It'll give you an estimate, but that number is an easy way to then go to your boss and say, look, boss, my time is worth 50 bucks an hour, 30 bucks an hour, 25, 15, whatever it is. And I found a solution that does that for me that only costs this much money. That's

There's two things in that conversation with the boss. First, show them that it's cheaper for you to get it done somewhere else, so they just need to let you get it done. But the second thing is, remind them of the more valuable thing that you also need to do that you can't do because you got too much on your plate. Remind them of those things that you would rather be doing, so let me outsource this so I can do more of that.

and any of those tasks that contribute to the bottom line or add to the customer experience or things that are going to improve and the long term things that move the business forward that are more valuable, especially if you bring that into that conversation, that conversation with your boss will often go much smoother. And you'll probably get more yeses if you paint that picture on those two things. Any thoughts on that?

Marcey Rader (49:48.379)

Yeah, I think that could work sometimes, but I bet there are, I bet someone out there is thinking like, my boss would never go for that. And here's what I have found in the last 11 years. And this used to be me when I worked for a company. So I'm not dissing anybody out there, cause this was me.

I'm not going to spend my even though it would have saved me time. I couldn't you know, I was making six figures, you know, over 10 years ago working for a company and I was like, I would not pay somebody $20 an hour or I would not pay somebody $50 to do X for me. The company should pay for that. And if the company doesn't pay for it, like you're saying that, well, I'm not going to pay. I shouldn't have to pay for that. But what you're giving up, it's hurting you.

because you're spending that time, you're wasting that time. Maybe what you would get is two hours less work on a Friday or an hour less work every day. And it's interesting to me because business owners and small businesses will hire me and they, know, somebody could be making, you know, seventy thousand dollars a year or one hundred fifty thousand dollars a year or two hundred fifty thousand dollars a year. And the person

who is the business owner making $70,000 a year. They're more likely to hire me and I'm not cheap. Then the person who works for a company making $200,000 or I'm sorry, $250,000 a year because they expect their company to pay for it all the time. And it's just really interesting the mindset of a business owner versus making hardly any money because they see it as an investment.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (51:39.65)

Yes.

Marcey Rader (51:40.159)

And somebody from a company also see almost, you know, they see it as an expense. And if their company's not paying for it, they're not going to. I want you to, if you work for a company, don't think of it that way anymore. Think of it as an investment and you will get it back with your time, with your energy. Maybe you will get promoted faster. And again, this used to be me. Like, you know, I felt like

I'm not going to pay for that conference. My company should pay for that conference. If they're not going to, well then I just won't go. Like it was punishing them. So think about it as an investment in yourself.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:20.92)

Totally. You know, I could tell that we would go on and on and on in this one. I want to leave you listening with Marcy and I both, if you or your business or any of this, if this is an area that you think is an opportunity, both of us, Marcy, we could come up with a two pack where they can get both of us to come in and do a session. I'm sure even the different perspectives on just the way she looks at it.

I've gotten so much out of talking with her just because I have my own business and thoughts about this. But man, the different perspectives, hearing different people's opinions often helps move the needle a little bit more when you hear it from more than one person. So I say that because Marcy, let's, I want to start to bring us kind of wrap us here because we've been going and I know we could keep going. What I want to ask you is what Marcy, what would you, what advice would you give to someone who's just

starting out outsourcing who hasn't done a lot of this or any of this. What would you say to them?

Marcey Rader (53:26.647)

If it's from a work perspective, fix something that it's okay if it breaks. And by that I mean, don't outsource something professionally that if somebody screwed it up, it could be disastrous. From a personal perspective, think of one thing that you just procrastinate on all the time and you just don't wanna do it. And instead of,

feeling like a failure every day, because every day that you procrastinate and you move that task forward, I'll clean the gutters tomorrow, I'll clean the gutters tomorrow, I'll clean the gutters tomorrow. Every day that just makes you feel like I failed today, I failed again, I failed again, just outsource it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (54:12.204)

Yes. Preach. Preach, sister. Yes, I love it. For me, the two, I got three pieces of advice for you if you've never done it. First, start with the free or the inexpensive opportunities. So I talked about errands, how it only costs like $5 to get stuff delivered. Or like, I remember when I used to order pizza and you, it was like $3.50 for delivery, or you could go pick it up. And my younger self was like,

I'm not paying your $3.50. I'm going to go pick it up. And like, my god, it took 45 minutes. And inevitably, there was a line when I got there. like, my god, $3.50. Please try the free or inexpensive options. Experiment.

Marcey Rader (54:54.103)

And you didn't have the heat thing that they drove to your house with the pizza in so by the time you got home it was cold

Brian Nelson-Palmer (54:59.712)

Right? And gold, yes, see? Totally. So that's the first thing is start with free or inexpensive options. And I will say the second thing is there's two, here's my top two indicators for the best opportunities for you. The first one is if it's something that you repeat multiple times, what are the ones that you do so many times?

that's going to be a great place to start. like for me, going to the store was five times per week and that was seven hours. That was a really big opportunity for me. So I started there. That's where I started was figuring that out. And if it's not the repeating things or if the biggest difference in your time's worth versus the cost. So again, we, we go back to the, I mean, store thing again in the store example.

it was free or it was like $5 to get the groceries delivered. Nobody was doing this until COVID happened and now everybody's tipped to the grocery game. But man, I used to pay the $10 to get the delivery charge back in like 2014, but it saved me so much time. Like the difference between how much of my time and how much that was worth versus the groceries, that's a huge opportunity. So look at that one. And my last one, please give yourself grace.

And what I mean by that is the first time you do it, you're gonna screw it up. It might not go as planned. It might not go perfectly. They're gonna bring you the wrong fruit that's not quite ripe. They're gonna do something wrong. They're gonna, man, there's gonna be something that isn't quite right. And give yourself grace in that. Try it two, three, four times before. Don't just, because it didn't work the first time doesn't mean that you can't do it. It just means that you might.

need to learn a little bit more about how it works to get better at it. But stick with it. Please do not give up on it. Marcy, my last question is, what does this mean for you personally? You and I both talk about this and we even we were like, we could do this episode. And you and I both were like, yes, I would love to talk. So what does this mean for you? What does it mean to Marcy?

Marcey Rader (57:13.279)

I just, I hope that you listening will be inspired by one of the things that we've talked about and write to Brian, find me on LinkedIn, write to me and just say, I tried this and maybe it was out of your comfort zone, but just that you tried one thing to either save yourself time

energy, money, your relationship, your health, because all that is more important.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (57:49.87)

So true. You you talked about your story, Marcy, for me personally, I'm passionate about this because I was diagnosed with diabetes at age four. And I remember sitting in the doctor's office and finding out that my life expectancy was 10 to 20 years less than everyone else. So I've always operated with this idea that I'm not going to have this long retirement. So I need to live it up now. So I got really good with the time stuff because I want to live now. I don't want to wait till retirement to do all the good stuff.

I wanna do it now. And so that's the why for me. And so to Marcie's point, try once. Give it one, try one, give it a try, see how it goes. If nothing else, it's gonna be a story. And then you can send this episode to your friends and talk smack and say, you know what? I tried what they said and it didn't work. And then you and your friends can laugh about it. And we still add into your life with some humor if nothing else, because now you got a funny story.

Marcey Rader (58:45.739)

Yeah, cause I have a story of one Brussels sprout.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (58:48.462)

Right? Totally. my God. I really if you have that picture of Marcy, send it to me. I want I want the picture. Check the if you you might have to go to the actual link. I don't know if it'll show up in the episode notes. You can't get pictures in there, but in the actual link on my website, I'm going to give you the one Brussels sprout picture so that you can see this because man, that's that's just funny. I love it. Well, Marcy, here's what I love. I love that you are.

Marcey Rader (58:53.559)

send it to you. I'll send it to you.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (59:15.04)

You've like gone all in and you wrote books and you're all about this topic of like how to be more productive and outsource. And I just love that you are so committed to sharing this stuff and that you're willing to come on the show and just share all the things that we talked about. Man, this is so helpful. So thank you very much for coming and being on the show today. This has been awesome.

Marcey Rader (59:38.135)

This was super fun. I love talking about this. Thanks, Brian.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (59:41.63)

And for those folks who want to keep in touch with you or check in with you later, what's the best way for them to keep in touch?

Marcey Rader (59:47.575)

Well, I'm only on LinkedIn, so they can find me there. My website is helloraderco.com or they can check out my new book, Reclaim Your Workday, Sustainable Productivity Strategies for the New World of Work. And it has eight chapters and they cover email and chat tools, meetings, remote work, vacation and time off, and healthy habits and so on.

But the productivity tips and strategies are actually separated by individual contributor, manager, and C-suite business owner. So they can find the specific level for them and incorporate a new productivity strategy or two.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:00:31.01)

Man, and I love that too, because even if you pick up that book now and then you get promoted over the years, like even as you get promoted into manager, you are still an individual contributor. So even if you just start with the first base layer, then when you move up, you're now gonna get the still, the base layer still applies plus the next layer. And then when you get promoted again, because I hope you still keep in touch with Marcy and I when you're some badass C-suite person way later. And like that's, I hope you're still that.

Marcey Rader (01:00:49.089)

Exactly.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:00:59.97)

Totally, all the levels, man. So I'll include all those links. Check your episode notes. That'll be in here. But thank you very much. Thanks. I appreciate that, Marcy. And for you tuning in, do you have a friend or colleague who you've talked about the outsourcing thing with, whether it's at work, where you wanted to outsource something and they wouldn't let you, or if it's a coworker, or maybe it's a friend, and you've toyed with grocery store horror story, grocery delivery horror stories.

Would you share the link to this episode specifically with them? Because I know Marcy and I would love to know that our conversation today touched people that are actually facing this right now. So a few texts back and forth with you is even if it's just for a laugh or something is going to mean so much and fill up both of your cups so much if you'll do that. So and I know Marcy and I would just love to know that you shared this and we helped make that happen. So whether

Whether you've joined my membership and you've taken the first step of joining the email list, or even if this is just your very first Productivity Gladiator episode, I love sharing Productivity Gladiator with you because together, these productivity skills are gonna change your life. That's a wrap.

Breaking Your Team's Biggest Success Barrier: 7 Simple Changes - with Maura Thomas

Productivity expert Maura Thomas joins Brian to tackle this #truthbomb:
Your team's biggest productivity barrier might be you.

Through engaging stories and practical examples, Maura reveals how leaders unknowingly create chaos through their communication habits and "always available" mentality.

Learn simple yet powerful changes you can make as a leader to transform your team's effectiveness, including why "I trust your judgment" might be the most important phrase in your leadership vocabulary, and why being too available to your team can be just as damaging as being unavailable.

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The Video

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The Audio/Podcast

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References In This Episode

• Maura Forbes Article on defining Open Door Policy - 10 Things Leaders Need to Get Right For Happy & Productive Employees

• Harvard Business Review Article, The Downside of Flex Time, the Communication Guidelines chart Maura mentioned in the interview is down at the bottom of the page.

• Maura’s Forbes article: What Does Work-Life Balance Even Mean?

• MauraThomas.com
  

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Episode Digest

Breaking Your Team's Biggest Success Barrier: 7 Simple Changes

While many organizations still frame productivity challenges in terms of time management, the real barrier isn't time – it's attention. Maura Thomas said it best:

"We've all had days where we said to ourselves, 'My gosh, that was such a good day. I got so much done.' And we've all had days where we said, 'My gosh, I was busy all day and somehow I got nothing done.' and in those two instances, same 24 hours."

You can't solve a distraction problem with a time solution. The real challenge lies in how organizational culture, particularly leadership behavior, shapes productivity.

Here are seven specific changes leaders can implement to transform their team's productivity:

1. Be Specific About "Responsiveness" Expectations On The Different Communication Types.

When leaders tell their teams to "be responsive," what they're really saying is "be fast." This creates a culture where employees feel compelled to monitor every communication channel constantly, making it impossible to prioritize effectively.

Instead, clearly define what responsiveness means in different contexts and establish realistic response-time expectations. State these somewhere so staff can point to them and reference them.

2. Create Clear Communication Channel Guidelines - What Type Of Communication Goes Where & When.

Organizations often introduce new communication tools without providing guidance on how to use them effectively. This results in redundant messaging (like sending a chat to say "I just sent you an email") and information overload.

Establish clear guidelines for which communication channels should be used in specific situations. Examples:

—Your “bat signal” - Which method is your “stop everything, I need you right now, it’s an emergency” channel?
—What’s worth a phone call?
—What’s a Teams/Slack Message for? Or an email? What’s the difference?
—Do we text message for work? If so, for what, when, and why?

"If you communicate urgent or time-sensitive issues the same way you communicate every other issue, then that creates a real problem in your organization."

3. Have a system for how work flows to/through your team.

Rather than having team members field requests from all directions, establish clear processes for how work flows into and through your department.

This doesn't mean all requests must go through the manager, but rather that there should be organized systems for handling different types of requests.

This helps prevent the constant "emergency" mode many teams operate in.

4. Use These Responses To Remove Yourself as the bottleneck to your team’s productivity. Empower them instead.

Instead of always wanting work to flow through you, and always being available to answer questions, use empowering phrases that build confidence and autonomy.

Rather than saying "Don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions" (which still implies the need for you to approve), try:

- "I trust your judgment"

- "I will support your decision"

5. Set Clear After-Hours Boundaries On work communication. Do Not Break them.

Despite what leaders might say about not expecting responses after hours, their behavior sets the real expectation.

If you're sending emails at night or on weekends, your team will feel compelled to check and respond. You can still choose to jump on after hours if you want, however all communications you send during this time should use the “schedule-send” feature so it will arrive during the next work day.

This capability is available for all major platforms so if you don’t know how to do it, google it and find it. Follow your established clear protocols from #2 above for genuine emergencies which require communication after hours.

6. Define Terms Explicitly

Common phrases like "open door policy" often mean different things to different people. Some interpret it as "interrupt anyone at any time for any reason," while others see it as "be available for important discussions."

Explicitly define these terms and their practical implications for your team. Top examples from Maura include:
—Work Week: What days and hours is this?
—Vacation Time: Does that mean you ARE or AREN’T available?
—Communication Hours: Is this the same as Work Hours? What times are messages to be received and processed?
—Emergency: What constitutes an emergency? A financial penalty above $#,###? Bleeding? Legal remifications? Something’s going to be on the front page of the newspaper?
—Open door policy: If you have one, what does that mean? Doors can’t be closed?

7. Model Work-Life Balance

Perhaps the most powerful quote from the discussion puts it simply:

"You can't get a fresh perspective on something you never step away from."

Research shows that working between 38-45 hours per week is optimal for productivity, happiness, and health outcomes.

Leaders need to model this balance, recognizing that scrolling through work emails while watching TV still counts as work.

The Impact of These Changes

These changes might seem simple, but their impact can be profound. When leaders recognize how their behavior shapes team culture and make conscious adjustments, they can transform their department from a reactive, always-on environment to one where people can do their best work.

Key challenges many teams face today include:

- Constant interruptions disguised as collaboration

- Difficulty prioritizing when everything feels urgent

- Burnout from always being connected

- Inefficient communication across multiple channels

- Disempowered team members who feel they need approval for everything

By implementing these seven changes, leaders can create an environment where their teams can feel satisfied at the end of each workday, knowing they've accomplished meaningful work rather than just staying busy.

Recognize that being too available to your team can be just as problematic as being unavailable. True leadership means creating an environment where team members can grow, make decisions, and manage their attention effectively – not just responding quickly to every request that comes their way.

Most importantly, remember that creating change doesn't require a complete organizational overhaul. Start with one area, such as communication protocols or workflow management, and build from there. The goal isn't perfect execution but rather conscious improvement in how work gets done.

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Productivity and Success Barriers

11:06 The Impact of Communication on Productivity

19:19 Strategies for New Leaders to Foster Productivity

26:09 Preventing Fires: A New Leadership Approach

34:30 The Power of Clear Communication

44:25 Work-Life Balance and Personal Well-Being

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Today’s Guest

Maura Thomas

Speaker, Trainer, & Author on Productivity

Maura Nevel Thomas is an award-winning international speaker and trainer on individual and corporate productivity and work-life balance, and the most widely-cited authority on attention management. Her proprietary Empowered Productivity™ System has been embraced by the likes of the NASA, Comcast, and Google. She’s ranked in the Top 10 Time Management Professionals in the World, and was named a Top Leadership Speaker by Inc. Magazine. She’s also a TEDx Speaker and the author of six best-selling books. Maura is frequently featured in major business outlets including Business Insider, Fast Company, and the Washington Post, and she’s also a regular contributor to both Forbes and the Harvard Business Review, with articles there viewed over a million times. 

MauraThomas.com

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. Graduates wield time management & life balance superpowers, activate a laser-guided ability to focus & prioritize, and implement a sniper-precise approach to task & email management. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!

Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:03.156)

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. On this show, I share personal, practical productivity skills. And in this episode, we're talking about the simple changes that you can make to break your team's biggest success barrier. And with me on the show today is Maura Thomas, who is a speaker, trainer, and an author on the topic of productivity. So I can't wait to have this discussion. Maura, thanks for being here with me.

Maura Thomas (00:28.683)

I'm happy to be here, Brian. Thanks for having me.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:31.094)

Now say a bit about your background. said productivity, but we're going to be talking about success barriers and such. So tell them, tell how your background relates to that topic.

Maura Thomas (00:41.471)

Yeah, I've been in the productivity field for my whole professional career. I started out for a decade working for a company that sold paper-based planners and training to go along with them. And when I left there, I started my business a really long time ago. So my whole professional career from my first job out of college, my entire professional career has been in the productivity industry and helping people.

achieve more of what's most important. The definition of the word productive that guides my work is achieving significant results. And that means anything from what's most significant to today, to this week, to this year, to this lifetime, and really anything that you consider important in between.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:33.388)

I love that and you talk about paper planners and it's so funny because I I tell people did not use paper planners because online is even better. So it's just so funny that that's the like man. We're going back in time to the paper planner days like yes, that's what we're talking about now more a lot of people talk about productivity. So what would you say makes you a little different from all these other people that talk about productivity?

Maura Thomas (01:59.125)

Yeah, I think most people still translate productivity into time management. Most people frame their ability to be productive in terms of time management. And I think that that phrase has far outlived its usefulness. The reason that we don't achieve, the reason that we don't achieve all the things that we want to achieve is not because we don't have enough time. We've all had days where we said to ourselves, my gosh, that was such a good day. I got so much done.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:19.0)

Mm-hmm.

Maura Thomas (02:27.989)

And we've all had days where we said, my gosh, I was busy all day and somehow I got nothing done. And in those two instances, same 24 hours. We didn't have more time one day or less time another day. And also everybody knows that we cannot manage time. It doesn't, we can't slow it down. We can't back it up. We can't get more of it. We can't bend it to our will in any way. Our biggest challenge in the 21st century is not that we don't have enough time. It's that we have too many distractions.

You can't solve a distraction problem with a time solution. The antidote to distraction is attention. And so I think it's time to kick the phrase time management to the curb and start thinking about how we manage our attention. Because the more we talk about attention management instead of time management, the more aware we become of how distracted we are. And the truth is, while we can't manage time, no one but you

can manage your attention. And when you get distracted from the things that are really important to you, unfortunately, we have lots of stories that we tell ourselves, but the truth is it is 100 % in our control. And being a control freak type A personality, that frame works much better for me. And I think it's much more relevant to the world that we live in today because the techniques of time management.

created in a world that no longer exists and is never coming back.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:59.816)

I mean, I did. You say that and I'm I'm I'm laughing. Cause on the one hand I'm like, wait a minute. I'm the guy who did a Ted talk on the value of your time and like time management is a thing. But at the same time, the whole premise of my talk is about spending your time more wisely and how you spend it and the value of it, which is really kind of exactly what you're talking about, which is you can't make more of it. So you have to choose how you spend it, which I am so excited for this conversation. OK.

Maura Thomas (04:09.803)

Thank

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:29.088)

So let's talk about it then. So what is our premise for today is the simple changes you can make to break your team's biggest success barrier. let's spoil the surprise here. What is the barrier? What is it?

Maura Thomas (04:47.455)

Yeah, well, I know that you are a primary audience, is recently promoted people managers. And so I think one of the biggest mistakes that even seasoned CEOs make is not recognizing how much influence you have on the people who report to you. And the way that you behave creates the culture. So when I say culture, the culture of an organization or the culture of a team,

I just mean the way everybody on the team behaves. so that means every single person on the team contributes to the culture, but nobody contributes to the culture more than the leader. Because people look to you to how to behave. And so when I talk about culture, I talk about the culture of productivity, right, as I'm sure you do as well. Are you creating environment where your team can really, really do their best work?

or are you creating an environment where your team is reactive and distracted all day long and leave work every day saying, my gosh, I was busy all day and yet I still got nothing done. And so I guess I have to get my work done when nobody's bothering me. Well, the only time people are not bothering you is at 11 o'clock at night or 4 a.m. or weekends or holidays. And...

What I have found is that the biggest obstacle to the team's productivity is often the behavior of the leaders. and the culture of the organization or the team. so Recognizing how much influence you have is really, really important.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (06:22.476)

Whoa.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (06:29.01)

my gosh, so just had this reaction like, my gosh, so we're going to pull out the guns and go after the senior leaders now. Is that what's about to happen? Heck yeah. Okay, let's talk about this Maura. Yes. And everybody, whenever you, the ideas that she gives you, you can blame Maura for all these ideas that we're about to point at the, no. Okay. So it just kidding. But that said, so it's ultimately the biggest barrier is the culture. Is that what I'm taking away here?

Maura Thomas (06:34.678)

I'm not sure.

Maura Thomas (06:56.125)

One of the biggest things standing in the way of the team, I mean, there's lots of things, certainly. Like a lot of people just simply don't have the skills to manage the realities of business today. We live in an unprecedented time with constant distraction, a fast pace, technology advancing faster than we can keep up with it.

And so it is a difficult place to live. And back in the day, for those people old enough to remember, I mean, when you, if you got a corporate job, like an office job, when you got out of school, you, you got sent to the time management class and you got your leather binder with the zipper and all the pages in it. And you got taught like, this is how to be a grownup. And this is how you manage a life. And now you have lots more responsibilities and this is how it goes. Well,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:44.952)

and

Maura Thomas (07:53.095)

The world is way more complicated than it was back then. And we don't get that anymore. Most companies don't send their people to that kind of training anymore. And even if they did, a lot of those techniques are outdated and not relevant anymore. So it's a real, really challenging. Most people simply don't have the skills that they need. But even when they do have the skills that they need,

so many cultures, the culture around productivity is so dysfunctional. Most organizations have a culture of urgency or a culture of chaos or a culture of distraction. Everything is an emergency. Everybody needs everything now. And we're drowning each other in communication and we're drowning each other in messages of all kinds. Everybody's telling everybody everything.

And it's just impossible. Every minute that somebody on your team has to spend in an inbox is a minute that they don't get to spend doing something that feels important and meaningful and like it moved the needle because nobody goes home at the end of the day and says, my gosh, it was such a good day. I read like 200 emails. It was amazing. Nobody says that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:14.328)

It's so true!

Maura Thomas (09:19.691)

And, but we tell all ourselves, all these messages and all these stories about why we have to spend every day in our inbox. And, and it feels true because if I miss, God forbid I should miss an important message from my boss, I'm in big trouble. Even though my boss sends me 70 messages every day, there's one or two that I really couldn't miss, but it got buried in the 68 others that I was sent.

And then the hundred that other people sent me. so it's, know, team communication is overwhelming and the leaders just sort of go, well, mean, I guess I figured out how to do this kind of. I guess everybody just needs to figure it out, know, figure it out. Everybody wants to do more with less. That's a, that's a wish, not a strategy.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:53.592)

Hello.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:11.906)

Gosh, yes. I mean, the focus and the prioritization is such, that's what, I mean, that's what productivity Gladiator is about is, all right, you just got that promotion. Welcome to the team. And what most companies do is they just say, congratulations, you're promoted. Good luck. And then figure it out. And like, so they do a really good job with onboarding training is a thing that a lot of organizations focus on.

but then they kind of leave out the training for the next step promotion or the one after that. Like what goes with that? That's a real opportunity. And so you're preaching to the choir with me and I'm sure you listening can absolutely relate to the chaos that she's talking about and the last minute culture that she's talking about. so if the culture of the leader is that, how big,

Maura Thomas (11:02.537)

behavior of

Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:06.092)

Give me an idea of how big of an issue this is, Maura. We both work in the space. We both work with different organizations. So like, what is the difference? Many people have no frame of reference beyond the place that they're sitting right now. So what is the difference when the culture is different? How big of an issue is it?

Maura Thomas (11:26.943)

I mean, so a lot of people talk about a culture of safety and a culture of trust and a culture of accountability and all that stuff is great. I'm talking about the culture of productivity. Are you creating an environment where your team can feel satisfied at the end of the workday? And so many leaders prioritize things like, for example, okay, here's a real concrete example.

bosses, supervisors, managers often say, we need to be responsive to our clients or we need to be responsive in our communication. And so if you just tell me that, what I hear when you say we need to be responsive is you need to be fast. You need to be fast when somebody reaches out to you, when somebody sends you some sort of message, voicemail, email, text, we need to be fast.

And if I want to be, I don't want to just be baseline at my job. I want to be really good at my job. So I want to be the best version of fast. And that means immediate. And so if in order to be, if I hear you saying, we need to be responsive without any other context. What I'm going to try to do is answer every message immediately. And then I'm going to get the gold star. But if I have to answer every message immediately, then I have to monitor every

every message on every channel as soon as it arrives. And so then how do I prioritize anything? Because everything that's coming in might be an emergency. And so if everything might be an emergency, then how do I do anything else? Because I have to monitor all of the information. And so that language on its face, it sounds pretty good. We need to be responsive. Sure, we need to be responsive. What do you mean by that?

And why, why do you want to be responsive? Do you just want to, I mean, are you competing on fast? Is that like your differentiator? Because anyone can be fast. What does good customer service mean to you? And what kind of expectations are you setting both internally and externally to provide whatever your definition of good customer service is?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:37.111)

Mm-hmm.

Maura Thomas (13:53.092)

So that's just one example. Another example is people... sorry. Yeah. Yeah?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:56.404)

my gosh, Mark, wait, can I yes and? Can I yes and you on that? Because while we're talking about this, I just had this debate in a session with an organization last week and it was so relevant to me because on this topic specifically, they say be responsive, right? And so people think, sometimes I engage and you've engaged and I know you listening probably have met the people that are glued to their inbox. Like they just, they can't close it, it's up all the time.

in the middle of a meeting, they will interrupt the meeting because something came in an email, which is disrespectful anyway, but they're just on their inbox all the time. And the conversation that we had that was so funny as you're saying, let's be responsive, which means let's be quick. But then on the flip side of that, how fast if that boss expects responsive, that organization expects responsive, how long do you wait before you follow up

on an email that hasn't been responded to? Because in my experience, you generally have to give the person, and this is general, so every situation is different, but generally, a couple of days. If they don't respond the next day, you might wait two days before you ping them again and say, hey, just checking in. And in some organizations, if you were in two days, they'll be like, listen, it might be like three days or something. So on the one end of the spectrum,

They want you to be responsive in a matter of minutes or hours. But then if somebody doesn't respond to you, you have to wait two days to follow up with them, to be, to give them time to process. So it's just this funny juxtaposition between the expectation of response time and the expectation of how long they get to respond to you. So as a supervisor or a leader, as we're talking about this, it makes sense to make those things even.

Right? Let's balance that expectation so that the amount of time that you give, the grace that you give somebody else, you're also allowed yourself or something like that. That was, it was just a really interesting conversation on that.

Maura Thomas (16:04.863)

Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure about balancing those things, but I think that another mistake that organizations make is that they don't provide any guidance. We have all these different ways to communicate inside organizations, and we keep introducing more ways to communicate and share information inside organizations, and we never provide any guidance.

that says we use this in this situation and we use this in this situation and we use this in this situation. And so what happens is it becomes personal preference. And so I work with, I have 10 people on my team and this one likes email and this one likes chat and this one likes voicemail and this one likes to have meetings and I can't remember what everybody likes. So I'm just gonna send all the things in all the ways.

And so now you end up with the chat that says, Hey, I just sent you an email. Right. And so now you have, now you have two messages about one thing instead of one message about one thing. And now you can see why everybody is drowning in too much communication. And when I talk about defaulting to personal preference, people say to me, you can't dictate these things. I mean, everybody's different.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:06.68)

huh.

Maura Thomas (17:26.559)

Yeah, everybody is different, but you have policies at your company that this is how you do things. You don't let every new employee just say, do things however you want here. It's fine. Whatever you want to do is fine. We don't have any policies. You don't say that. Communication is one of the most important things because it is something that

people in the organization spend the majority of their time on, at least those people who work in the office, right? If you're not actively like building things or on the manufacturing floor or seeing patients or directly serving customers, then a big part of your job is communication. And yet we have no policies around how we communicate. And so...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:54.786)

Yes.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:14.946)

Yes.

Maura Thomas (18:15.795)

And so I have to treat every incoming communication as an emergency because it might be. And so that means every new thing has to be the priority until I know that it isn't the priority. And so then I can't prioritize really anything. Leaders call me in and they say, my team doesn't know how to prioritize. I need you to do a class on prioritization. And what I find is that the team knows how to prioritize. They just can't in this culture because everything feels like a fire.

that they have to put out right now. And so that's a culture problem.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:50.124)

Yeah, gosh, for sure. all right. Well, let's I think we've all right. We've declared we're at the point where let's talk about culture and that thing. So what? What do you do? What what what are what are Maura's thoughts takeaways on? What do you do in that scenario? Let's say and the people like you listening, the people that that I talked to and about on this show is generally not you are not the CEO.

You are not the very top. You're either the person, the troops on the ground, or you're the first or second level above them. You've got a team underneath you, but you've got people above you. So you can't issue that policy that fixes all of it, but now what do you do? What are your thoughts, Maura?

Maura Thomas (19:38.655)

Yeah, many, many things. mean, the first thing is that as the new leader, you have to be brave enough to set the example. And so that means you have to manage up as much as you have to manage down. And so you want to make sure that you are protecting your team from the dysfunction in the organization to the extent that you can.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:04.055)

Huh?

Maura Thomas (20:04.425)

So if you're so it's helpful, for example, to have a conversation with your boss about how is work going to flow through your department? Because probably most people on your team get emails and other communication from everyone in the organization about everything. And

And how do they prioritize? And all of those emails, by the way, are typically another thing to do, right? Here's something that's really is going to be a to-do item for you. And so if you as the leader are not paying attention to how your team receives work, processes work, and pushes work out of your department, then it's going to remain chaotic.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:41.432)

True story. Yeah.

Maura Thomas (21:04.509)

And if it's not the leader of that department figuring out how the workflow is going to happen, then who is it? There's no one. And so recognizing how your team receives their work and therefore how they can prioritize it is a super useful thing to do as you take over as a new manager of a department. And that will protect your team from

feeling like they're pulled in a million different directions. That's one thing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:39.68)

I love the it's ultimately it's managing the work right so and can I so I want to ask you a clarifying question on that then because there is this what you don't want to do is shut down the communication but at the same time where do you draw the line of what they can go like so I mean I mean the example I have is let's say somebody has a question about something question goes directly to the person they answer the question.

Hey, a question about this policy, a question about this thing, whatever it is, questions are fine. If it is, to answer the question sometimes takes a little bit of work, but if it's just a clarifying thing, that's one thing. If it is a task, then the task goes through the manager, or is it a task under a certain amount of minutes, or is it just that the person on your team knows to let the boss know or log it in some system? Where's the line between

what does go through you as the boss and what still goes straight to the person.

Maura Thomas (22:40.619)

Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying that everything has to flow through the boss, right? I definitely don't want to, I mean, the boss shouldn't be the gatekeeper. The boss should work, the head of the department should work with their boss to figure out how the work of the department is going to flow through the department. And then,

getting support in terms of, know, every salesperson can't, shouldn't be going to every member of my team with everything that they need, right? We need a way to sort of, to centralize and prioritize requests because every salesperson is going to think that their thing is the most important and my team is in a position to decide for themselves. so every, so,

Right? So a lot of times people feel like they report to many different bosses. And so it's not to say that every request has to come through the boss. It's just to say, what process are we going to encourage, say, the sales team to follow when they need things from our people? Are they going to go directly to the person? Is there going to be a ticketing system? Who's going to be in charge of what? Does somebody have a finite number of accounts that they service?

just stepping back and taking the big picture view of how does this department operate and how does work come to us and flow through and go out so that people individually in the minute of their day saying, I just got five different emails from five different salespeople who need five different things and each one of these is going to take me an hour to do, but I already had my own plans for the day. So how am I supposed to know what, right? And just feeling frustrated. That doesn't mean that

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:38.199)

yet.

Maura Thomas (24:39.339)

that every request has to go only to the boss. It just means to take the big picture view of how are we going to handle this? Because we know this is going to happen.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:48.15)

And you know, I almost think about it as like necking it down. Oftentimes when you describe that, that scenario, people, you come into a new position maybe, or a new manager of a team, and you feel a little powerless because the way that it's been running is the way that it's been running. And so you don't want to ruffle feathers. You don't want to be the one that comes in, but at the same time, you do need to get your hands around the work. And so you as the boss are in charge of the work.

That is your, you're in charge of the people and approving vacations, but reality is you're in charge of the work. So even if that means getting your hands around the big picture requests, even if just start there, like the advice is, my God, please start somewhere. Like start with the big stuff. And then once you figure out the big stuff, the little stuff might be running around all crazy still, but you got to start somewhere. So start big.

and then come down to the medium stuff and get a good system in place for those and then move down. But don't just look at it and go, well, I can't fix this all at once. So let's just not fix it at all. That's not going to be effective. So please don't do that. Please start somewhere. And I love your idea, Maura. How does the workflow? That's a really good one. I like that.

Maura Thomas (26:09.279)

Yeah, a lot of times recently promoted people and sometimes even seasoned leaders will view their job as the one to fight the fires. And I really think that the leaders should be the ones looking at why the fires are starting to begin with and preventing them. When I ask, when I go into a leadership group, often the first question I ask is,

What is the one thing that is most likely to derail your plans for your day? And they say unexpected issues that pop up. And I say, okay, unexpected issues are the most common thing. So this happens every day. Yeah, it happens every day. Well, doesn't that mean that it should be expected then?

And why are there so many unexpected issues? Because that tells me that you don't have processes for how things should operate. I mean, I understand everything doesn't always go according to plan, but if you have unexpected issues every day, then you should start expecting them. And you need to start to think about why they're happening to begin with. So thinking about your job as the one to prevent the fires instead of the one to fight the fires is a...

way that you can be a really powerful contributor to the organization because a lot of people don't add value in that way. They just put their head down and do their job instead of thinking, how can we get better every day?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:45.432)

True story. I love that. Prevent the fires, not fight the fires. And that's really hard because you as the supervisor are often held responsible for the fires. So you basically have to stand there on fire and try to figure out how to prevent this the next time, which is counterintuitive, but also super important. Like, don't forget to, if you put the fire out, make sure that it doesn't start again. Like, yes. Love that. True.

Maura Thomas (28:00.754)

You

Maura Thomas (28:15.371)

And you know what? Yeah. So that leads me to another one, which is kind of related, which is that leaders, mean, everybody really, everybody wants to be helpful, but especially people in leadership positions, they feel like it's their job to be, we've heard this idea of being a servant leader, right? And being, everybody wants to be helpful. Everybody wants to support their team. Everybody wants to answer questions and, you know, be the mentor and be the person that their

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:15.564)

What else?

Maura Thomas (28:45.269)

team needs, but here's the truth. It is just as bad to be too available to your team as it is to be completely unavailable to your team. Because if your team is always coming to you with, for guidance and answers and help and support, they're always interrupting you for these things. And you always allow the interruption

and you always provide the guidance and the sounding board and the support and the answers to the questions, then at best, at best, you are teaching your team to be a little lazy because they're sitting in their office thinking, you know, I could probably figure this out on my own, but if I just ask Brian, he'll tell me what to do. that's the most efficient thing is just to go, is to go ask Brian at best, you're making them a little lazy.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:34.025)

Right.

Maura Thomas (29:41.893)

at worse, you are disempowering them. You are teaching them that they have to run every little question, every little issue by you to get your input. And some people recognize this. Some people, they recognize that they need to teach their team to be independent. And so they usually say one of two things. And I think both of these could be improved upon. So when they realize that being too available, perhaps

is making their team a little lazy or disempowered. They'll say either, don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions, right? Well, my response to that is if they know the problem and they know the solution, why do they need to come to you at all? Right? Or they'll say something like, what do you think we should do? But both of those things still imply that

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:22.018)

Right.

Maura Thomas (30:40.521)

that the leader needs to bless this, right? Come to me with solutions and I will tell you if that's a good solution or not, right? Or what do you think we should do so that I can tell you thumbs up or thumbs down on what you think we should do. That still disempowers the team. So I have two phrases that can be super powerful, especially even for seasoned CEOs, but especially for new leaders.

Try one of these. The first one is the one I always use and somebody just last week gave me a really good one too. So try this phrase instead when your team comes to you. I trust your judgment.

I trust your judgment is a much more useful thing to say because it empowers the team member to take ownership of their job and to be more accountable and to solve problems on their own and to learn and grow and take responsibility. I trust your judgment or.

That's the one that I've been using for a long time. Somebody last week gave me another option, which I also love, which is, I will support your decision.

both of those empower your team. And so remembering that being too available is just as bad as being never available and trying one of those two phrases will help your team to learn and grow and feel empowered and take responsibility and accountability. And the benefit to you is that you will be interrupted less often.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:19.382)

Last off. Yep.

Maura Thomas (32:20.841)

and you'll more time to get your homework done.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:23.532)

That's true. If you think about the supervisor, when you read every position description ever, well, ever might be a strong term. Now I'm getting extremist with my language. if when you read most position descriptions, the supervisor position description does not say be available to answer your team's questions within moments or at any time that they have them. That generally doesn't say that.

Maura Thomas (32:51.989)

Well, it doesn't say that, but here's another mistake. When I talked about words have power, we say things that we think mean a thing and other people think they mean something entirely different. So here's a phrase that the job description doesn't say that, but how many companies say that they have an open door policy?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:11.384)

true story.

Maura Thomas (33:12.381)

And what do, if you say we have an open door policy, what most people think that means is come on in any time. Anyone can interrupt anyone at any time for any reason. If you say open door policy, that is probably what your team means. Or I have worked with teams who, when I talk about controlling your attention and maybe close your door to get work done, and I have had people say to me,

We are not, we have an open door policy here. We are not allowed to close our doors. And when the leader of the team heard that in the training, it was like a face bomb moment, right? Because we think that everybody has the same definition of the words that we use. I wrote an article for Forbes called 10 terms that you need to explicitly define for your team. And open door policy is at the top of that list.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:07.496)

Nice. OK, I will search that and make sure in your notes for this episode, you can check out that one because that sounds like an interesting read more. like that. OK. So we we all right. So encapsulate, we just went down. We had some good anecdotes there. What is the bottom line? That bottom line piece of advice was.

Maura Thomas (34:30.411)

Well, we said a lot. be very clear with the words that you use and make sure everybody's on the same page with what they mean. Like culture. Culture means how everybody operates, how everybody behaves in the department. And so when you talk about culture, if you, for example, never respect a closed door and you always knock, knock, hey, do you have a minute? Then everybody's going to do that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:42.882)

Okay.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:49.132)

Right.

Maura Thomas (34:59.217)

If you yell over cubicle walls, everybody's going to yell over cubicle walls. If you email people after hours, everybody's going to email people after hours. So understanding that you're all on the same page with words, words like culture, words like open door policy, words like vacation. What do you expect from your team when they're on vacation?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:22.047)

huh.

Maura Thomas (35:25.803)

because most people say that they expect nothing from their team when they're on vacation. But the way they behave implies that they actually expect quite a lot more from their team when they're on vacation. So, so words have power and understanding the words that you use, that's, that's one thing. Having a, a big picture view of how your department operates.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:40.045)

they take.

Maura Thomas (35:53.831)

so that there's a process for things, so that all of these unexpected emergencies that really should be expected then get handled more efficiently and then you're really adding value by improving the way that the department operates.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:02.02)

huh.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:08.973)

Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:12.684)

And I wanna go back to one, Maura, that you said, or one thing that we talked about, which I think is important for you and I to talk about now, and that is we talked about all the different communication mediums. And you had said that, you mentioned earlier, and it just jogged my memory about how culture, there are all these different mediums, and people say, we can't put a policy around those, or we can't necessarily.

you as a supervisor, you as an employee can create expectations around those things. And so the example that I have is many organizations now have something like a Microsoft Teams or Slack in their organization. And what's funny is the organizations brought in this tool, but then they never talked about communications and how that's routed and setting expectations around it. So for example, for me, when my organization brought in Teams,

or Slack, to me, the very, if you actually go read the studies and you nerd out on productivity like I do, and I'm sure you do, the beautiful thing about Teams and Slack is it allows you to communicate internally without blowing up somebody's inbox and email. So the simple line would be email is external and Teams and Slack is your internal communications. That's an easy way to do it. Now that's not always true.

But what I find happens is that organizations just now have two mediums when they used to have one and they use them both the same. And then people have different expectations around it too. So for me, if I treat it like email, except this one's internal and this one's external, then that means if 24 hours is how long you expect, by the next day you'll get back to somebody on an email, then that's also true of your team's message. But organizations don't necessarily.

that expectation or they might not have done that. So you as a boss with your team, you don't have to dictate this, but at least sit down and have the discussion about how are we best going to use these platforms to communicate, whether it's teams or Slack or I don't know about you, but I've gotten text messages from my boss on or client or whoever. And so now there's texting phone calls. So what is that and create an expect or a norm?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:29.976)

Create a norm for your team if nothing else. But I don't know, what are your thoughts on

Maura Thomas (38:35.967)

Yeah, I mean, I think an expectation of response times can be helpful, but to me, the first step is which tool in which situation. So for example, I mean, at the very minimum, the way that I like to put it is that you need a bat signal, right? Like what's what's the like, this is urgent or time sensitive, right? Because if you communicate urgent or time sensitive,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:56.184)

Okay.

Maura Thomas (39:03.751)

issues the same way you communicate every other issue, then that creates a real problem in your organization. So at the very minimum, you need a bat signal. You need a bat signal internally and you need a bat signal externally. If it's time sensitive, do this. But then there's also some communication guidelines and there's an article out there probably

I think it's Harvard Business Review that I wrote in this one with a chart, a sample chart of communication guidelines, because it's not just urgent time sensitive. It's also during work hours, after work hours. Because sometimes things come up after hours, but most things that get communicated after hours really could have waited. So how do we communicate then? Also,

If it's another problem that we have, especially with some younger folks, is that they tend, sometimes people tend to hide behind email. And so they try to communicate a very sensitive or, you know, complicated issue by email because it's easier to do it by email than actually looking someone in the face and telling them like they're not doing a good job or they are disappointed.

what they said or something like that. And email is not appropriate in that situation. identifying the different ways that you have to communicate in your organization and providing some guidelines around if it's urgent or time sensitive, do this. If it's complicated or sensitive, do this. If it's routine questions, whatever, do

So there's a chart in that HBR article about that that is really useful. And also after hours versus during work hours. And this comes down to recognizing how much influence leaders have and what that does to your team. It doesn't matter how many times you say to somebody like, don't worry about this. Sometimes I'm up late at night or Sunday.

Maura Thomas (41:25.371)

mornings, I'm sending emails. I mean, don't even worry about it until Monday. It doesn't matter. You can say that until you're blue in the face, but if you're the boss and you're sending email after hours, your team's going to be reading email after hours. And that's affecting their life. And there's all kinds of really powerful studies about that. I'm afraid that we're running low on time, so I don't want to go too far off the rabbit hole.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:46.59)

my gosh, can we? gosh, Mark, can we just say that it is please if you are a supervisor, if you are over people or, you know, honestly, even if you're not a supervisor, if you want to correct that culture of you need to be checking your email all the time, it's called schedule send.

And with the latest version of iOS, you can now do that with text messages too. So if you don't know how to schedule send in Slack or schedule send in Teams or schedule send in your email, it's in Gmail. It's an outlook.

And now I'm pretty sure on every platform you can Google it. There is a way to do this. You should know that if you're going to send something, it's fine that you think of something at eight o'clock at night. I nerd out on things and think about it at nine or 10 or whatever. And you want to get it off out of your head. So you write it down or you send an email to that person. But instead of hitting send, hit schedule, send and schedule it to arrive at eight o'clock the next morning so that you are not the person who's emailing.

at 10 o'clock at night. Please, please, please, unless like you said, it's urgent, unless it is urgent, please don't send emails after hours. Not even that. Call. Yeah.

Maura Thomas (43:00.617)

Definitely even, okay, Brian, I gotta disagree with you here. Yeah, don't send an email in the case of an urgent issue after hours because I have to check it to know, right? So what's the bad signal for after hours? What's the bad signal for after hours communication? People need to feel like they can disconnect at night. And so there needs to be an understanding that like if there really is an emergency and let's face it, most people's jobs do not require

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:11.778)

Fair. True.

Yeah.

Maura Thomas (43:29.0)

after hours communication. If you're like a middle level manager and you've got a team of customer service people reporting to you, there's nothing that needs to that they need to be acting on after their work hours. It can wait until tomorrow.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:44.844)

Yeah. And in most cases, generally, it can wait until tomorrow. And it's fine that you just want to get it off your plate now because you got a lot to do tomorrow. But schedule, send that thing. Please do not send that message like, gosh, yes, I love. And the bat signals are great. I love that metaphor. That's a great metaphor. You need it. You need a signal that cuts through everything when you need it and you only use it when it's necessary. Don't be the boy who cries wolf. You know, kind

You know, now one thing I want to ask you is what does this mean for you personally? Clearly you're pretty passionate about this. You've been doing this for a long time, so talk about what this means for Maura. Why? Why? Why is this so important to you?

Maura Thomas (44:25.663)

Yeah. So I work with super accomplished, super dedicated, super motivated people who have very busy lives by choice. And what I find from these people is that they are, they're able because they're driven and motivated and passionate. They are, they are offering so much value to the world.

They're offering so much value. you know, they're volunteers, they're family people, they're community members, they're employees, they're leaders, they aspire to improve. And that is great. So they're offering so much to the world, but they're offering it at a very high cost to themselves. They're offering these gifts to the world in a way that is exhausting and depleting and...

and stressful. And I mean, you've maybe heard the expression busy is the new fine, right? How are you busy? Or people, what I find out I'm hearing people say is either bit, how are you either busy or tired, exhausted, right? And so the re the

Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:34.635)

I dunno.

Maura Thomas (45:47.871)

The reason that I do what I do is to help people bring these amazing, these driven, motivated, smart people, is to help them bring these gifts to the world in a way that is inspiring and energizing and motivating instead of in a way that is depleting and stressful and overwhelming. And that's why I do what I do.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:08.598)

Yeah. Have you? Have you talk about a time you've hit that point in your career and what's your do you have like a bat signal for yourself when like, OK, all right, I know I've reached my threshold. Now it's too much. How does it work for you?

Maura Thomas (46:29.067)

Yeah, I mean...

So I succumb to many of the problems that I help my people manage. Like I am easily distracted. I sometimes am on a device when I should be present in something else. And sometimes I'm not giving people my full attention even when I intend to or want to, or sometimes I am that person.

that, you you've ever seen that person somewhere at the grocery store on the plane and they're just on their phone and they're just oblivious. They're in the way. They're yelling there. Right. And everybody's like, dude, hang up the phone. Right. Sometimes I'm that that person. I admit it. But one thing that I I think that I have dialed in is the whole idea of work life balance. And I wrote an article

because words have meaning for Forbes about what does work-life balance even mean. And some people talk about work-life balance as if it's convenience. Like, I like to work at home because then I can, you know, start dinner or take the dog out for a walk or run an errand real quick. Well, that's convenience. That's not work-life balance.

Or some people say, like, I need to run out and deal with the kids and I don't have to ask anybody's permission if I'm working from home. Well, that's freedom. That's not work-life balance. And so the one definition that I have found for work-life balance, and, you know, I don't agree with this, like, work-life integration or work-life harmony or whatever. I think that

Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:10.666)

Yeah.

Maura Thomas (48:14.941)

I think that the more that we, I mean, we have one life, no question about it. Sometimes you do work stuff at home and home stuff at work and that's way it goes. We only have one life, but there is reams and reams and reams of research that shows that.

working too much is not only bad for us, but it's bad for work. you are more, we are healthier, we are happier, and we are even more productive at work if we don't work too much. So the definition that I encourage my clients to use is for work-life balance is simply don't work too much. And if you want to know what work, what too much means, the research shows that on average, now,

Every business has crunch times and I get that. But on average, somewhere between 38 and 45 hours a week is optimal for productivity, for happiness, for engagement, for health outcomes, for all of those things. And even if you love your job, you will still be better at your job if you don't do your job too much. if you're scrolling...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (49:27.304)

us. Preach. Preach.

Maura Thomas (49:29.393)

scrolling your email from your couch when you watch TV at night, that counts as work. And so that's one thing that I really take seriously. It's the whole like, you know, put your oxygen mask on first idea. Like nobody's any good to anybody if you're exhausted and burned out and overwhelmed and stressed and you're not good to your family, you're not good to your coworkers, you're not good for your organization. It's not even good for your career advancement. If this is how you

Brian Nelson-Palmer (49:35.063)

Yes.

Maura Thomas (49:58.897)

operate. I can't sometimes the best thing that you can do for your work is not work.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (50:07.554)

So true. And knowing that line, I love what you said there because I feel like there is this misnomer that many people have jobs and they have careers. And then, you know, the concept is, well, if I won the lottery, I wouldn't do this job. So this isn't my life's work or something like that. It's that that miss. I think that's a misnomer. The reality is we do jobs that are interesting to us and can be interesting for us.

And having that balance is so true because I'm here to tell you right now that I have met and spent time with so many people who were doing their life's work where it doesn't feel like work. And you know who gets burned out? Those people all the time because they work too much and there's a limit to that for that person too. So I love the balance has to do with not working too much and balance is about.

having a personal life that is not necessarily your work life. You can't do them all together all the time. That that still isn't good. You as a human being want to have different dynamics, different angles. There's different things to you. So balance means you're not just a one trick pony. You don't just have that one thing that you do and that's your that's it. So I, I'm sorry. I get really motivated about this stuff. I love it, man. I love what you said there, Maura. That is that is awesome.

Maura Thomas (51:25.865)

And here's another way to put it. You can't get a fresh perspective on something you never step away from.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (51:33.078)

Ooh, ooh, that's that's sexy. I like that. Yes, absolutely. Step away from it and look back at it. Get little sassy look back like yep. Look at that over there like yes, dude. I don't that wasn't sexy at all. What I just did there if you're watching the video. But anyway, that's what I was going for here. OK gosh well Maura. Here's what I love. I love that you are doing your life's work in a way and at the same time I love that you just told us.

Maura Thomas (51:42.987)

Ha

Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:00.836)

that 38 to 45 hours is your life's work and the limit on what's good for you too. And yes, we're all gonna fall off the bandwagon and all of that. And I love that you own it, but then you're teaching people to do it better. And you know, we just keep trying and each time we try, we get better. And I love that you're helping these people do that. And I love that you shared some time with us to share some of these ideas. So thanks for being here. Thanks for doing this.

Maura Thomas (52:27.507)

It was such a pleasure. Thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:30.336)

And if people want to keep in touch with you, what are the best ways to keep in touch with Maura?

Maura Thomas (52:35.625)

Yeah, mean, everything you need is at maurathomas.com. There's a page called Free Resources where you can get like a guide to controlling your tech and for getting out from under your email and for decreasing burnout. And there's discussion guides for the books. You can learn about all the books there. I've written, in addition to my Forbes and my HBR columns, there's probably 300 or more articles on my own blog.

So there's all kinds of resources at MauraThomas.com.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (53:11.096)

Got it. Check that out. And if they have never met you or heard of you and you were going to tell them what is the first thing that they should check out of yours, what's your favorite? Where do you send people first of all those things you just listed?

Maura Thomas (53:25.129)

Well, we have designed, well, we've got a new website coming out and we've really designed it in a way that helps people figure out where to get started. So I would say at moratomis.com, that should help you find the path for what will help you the most, whether it's independent study, whether it's support for your team, whether it's just a book or an article or a specific problem that you're trying to solve, you should be able to get to what you need.

pretty quickly by starting at maurathomas.com.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (53:58.52)

And that link is in your notes. So check that out. Very cool. And for you turning in, do you have a friend or colleague who struggles with the culture of productivity in their organization? Or does this remind you of a coworker or someone that you've worked with where you hit some of these issues that Maura and I talked about? Because I know my request for you is would you share the link to this episode specifically with them? Because I know Maura and I

would love to know that our conversation today touched people that are facing that issue with the barrier to success and culture and productivity, a culture of productivity and how they can do that. So a few texts back and forth with you directly because you thought about them would be so meaningful to them and would go a long way to filling up both of your cups. So please do that if somebody came to mind for you with this episode. And whether it's...

just your first episode or you've taken the step and joined my email list or you've joined my membership. I love sharing Productivity Gladiator with you because together these productivity skills are going to change your life. That's a wrap.

How Your Purpose Will Multiply Your Productivity - With Stan Phelps

Stan Phelps joins Brian and explores the deep connection between purpose and productivity. They dig into the importance of aligning personal and organizational goals with a clear purpose.

They also dive into helpful tangents including:

• The 4 versions of the workplace and how productivity is tied to the current version 4.0

• the significance of warmth in relationships,

• Generational shifts in workplace values.

• The 8 purpose archetypes

• Practical advice for individuals seeking to find their purpose.

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The Audio/Podcast

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References In This Episode

• Purple Goldfish (the first/original book) by Stan Phelps

• Red Goldfish (about purpose-driven business) by Stan Phelps

• The full Goldfish series of books

• Article about U2, Bono, and the “Red Campaign”

• Mark Twain's reference to "lagniappe" in his autobiography - What’s a Lagniappe?

• Mike McCallowitz (regarding BANG - Big Audacious Noble Goal vs BHAG - Big Hairy Audacious Goal)

• Simon Sinek (mentioned regarding the importance of "why")

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Episode Digest

Purpose and Productivity: Finding Your North Star

The relationship between purpose and productivity is more profound than many realize. When individuals and organizations align their actions with a clear sense of purpose, productivity naturally follows. But what exactly is purpose, and how does it differ from a simple mission statement?

Understanding Purpose vs. Mission

““People don’t buy what you do. They buy how you do it. And maybe more importantly, why you do it.””

— Stan Phelps

A purpose is your guiding North Star - something that drives you and provides directional guidance. While you may never fully reach that North Star, it serves as a constant guide. This differs significantly from a mission statement in several key ways:

- Purpose is the "why" while mission is the "what"

- Purpose is the calling while mission is the job

- Purpose comes from the heart while mission comes from the head

- Purpose is ambitious while mission is pragmatic

- Purpose focuses on goals while mission outlines the plan

The Evolution of Business Purpose

Business has evolved through four distinct phases over the past century:

• 1.0 (Pre-1970s): Focus solely on shareholder value

• 2.0 (1970s): Recognition that customer focus drives shareholder returns

• 3.0 (1990s): Understanding that engaged employees create happy customers

• 4.0 (Present): Purpose-first approach driving employee engagement, customer satisfaction, and shareholder value

Actionable Insights for Finding Your Purpose

Use the "Hell Yes or No" Test

When evaluating your purpose, there are only two possible answers - "Hell Yes" or "No." If you're unsure or thinking "maybe," that's effectively a no. Your true purpose should evoke an immediate, enthusiastic response.

Identify Your Purpose Archetype

Organizations and individuals typically fall into one of eight purpose archetypes:

- **Protector**: Environmental/social protection (e.g., Patagonia)

- **Liberator**: Promoting freedom and new ways (e.g., Harley Davidson)

- **Designer**: Creating innovative solutions (e.g., Apple)

- **Guide**: Helping others navigate (e.g., Google)

- **Advocate**: Standing up for causes/groups (e.g., AARP)

- **Challenger**: Questioning status quo

- **Unifier**: Bringing people together (e.g., Whole Foods)

- **Master**: Revolutionizing industries (e.g., Warby Parker)

Understand the Warmth-Competence Dynamic

"People value warmth more than competence. They're both important, but warmth trumps competence every day of the week and twice on Sunday."

People make quick judgments based on two factors:

1. Intent (Warmth): Understanding why someone does something

2. Ability (Competence): Can they deliver on that intent

While both matter, warmth - understanding someone's purpose and intentions - typically matters more in building trust and relationships.

Making the Transition to Purpose-Driven Work

For those looking to align their work more closely with their purpose, here are practical steps:

1. **Start Where You Are**: You don't have to quit your job to pursue purpose. Look for ways to bring purpose into your current role or organization.

2. **Consider Adjacent Moves**: Instead of completely starting over, look for roles in related fields where your experience remains valuable but aligns better with your purpose.

3. **Test Through Volunteering**: Before making major changes, volunteer with organizations that align with your potential purpose to test the fit.

““We used to live in the tyranny of ‘or’ where you either had to pursue something that truly gave you purpose and meaning but live the life of a struggling artist, or do something lucrative but feel empty. Now we’re in the power of ‘and’ - we can have both.””

— Stan Phelps

Bottom Line

Purpose isn't just about feeling good - it's a practical driver of productivity and success. When people understand and connect with why they do what they do, engagement increases, resilience grows, and productivity naturally follows. The key is finding that "Hell Yes" moment and building your path forward from there, whether through dramatic changes or incremental shifts toward your North Star.

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Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Purpose and Productivity

03:01 Stan Phelps' Journey and Marketing Background

05:42 The Evolution of Business Purpose

08:14 Understanding Purpose vs. Mission

10:57 The Importance of Warmth in Business Relationships

13:47 Identifying Your Purpose

16:26 The Power of Purpose in Productivity

18:58 Finding Balance Between Purpose and Compensation

21:57 The Concept of Lanyap in Business

24:40 Purpose-Driven Organizations and Their Impact

27:25 Engagement and Productivity in the Workplace

30:07 The Role of Gen Z in Shaping Workplace Values

32:57 Archetypes of Purpose in Organizations

35:59 Stan's Personal Purpose and Its Impact

38:29 The Goldfish Metaphor for Growth

41:20 Conclusion

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Today’s Guest

Stan Phelps

Certified Speaking Professional
Global Speaking Fellow
Author of the GoldFish Series of Books

A show and tell speaker, Stan empowers audiences to take action that delivers bottom-line impact. He strives to change the paradigm of marketing by encouraging audiences to focus on experiences as the ultimate competitive differentiator. He believes purposeful DX wins the hearts of employees and customers, and differentiation ultimately boosts loyalty, retention, referrals, and results.

A masterful storyteller who quickly connects with audiences, Stan has delivered keynotes and workshops for Fortune 100 brands including IBM, Target, Exxon Mobil, Boeing, Caterpillar, Ford Motor, Kroger, Cardinal Health, Walt Disney, UnitedHealth, Rocket Companies, and more.

He works directly with you to customize content that matches your audience and your goals to create a memorable and meaningful experience every time. Count on Stan to show up early, arrive prepared, and disrupt the all-work-and- no-play methodology with his sharp wit and trademark showmanship. He makes it his mission to exceed expectations and inspire audiences in ways they just can’t help but talk about — and won’t soon forget.

stanphelps.com

linkedin.com/in/stanphelps

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. Graduates wield time management & life balance superpowers, activate a laser-guided ability to focus & prioritize, and implement a sniper-precise approach to task & email management. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!

Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:00.204)

and smile for the start.

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. And on this show, I talk about personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, we're talking about your purpose. And here's how your purpose has everything to do with your productivity. With me on the show today, my guest is Stan Phelps, who is a certified speaking professional and global speaking fellow. And he's the author of the Goldfish series of books that are right in this lane.

So Stan, thanks so much for joining me today.

Stan Phelps (00:34.42)

Yeah, thank you for having me, Brian. Great to be here.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:38.412)

and say a bit about your background. we're going to be talking about your purpose and how what that has to do with your productivity. Talk about your relation to that.

Stan Phelps (00:47.22)

Yeah. So I, my background was I worked for a couple of decades in marketing. I've worked with big brands like Adidas, the New York Yankees, the PGA of America. I've also worked on the agency side. and for me, I'll just my personal story. I, I, I worked on some great marketing campaigns and activations, but I started to feel a disconnection in marketing and I thought marketing could be.

have a bigger purpose. And I just knew I was part of the problem and not part of the solution. And I had this kind of moment of truth that led me on this journey to first start a blog where I spent a year just writing about all aspects of marketing. But I was looking for the one thing that I thought could be a game changer. And I found it and it led me down this path of creating this kind of

big goal of collecting a thousand and one examples of this little thing that I found and that ended up becoming a book which has now become a series and now there's 20 books in the series so.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:01.07)

That's amazing. so, and that was in the focuses on marketing or productivity and purpose.

Stan Phelps (02:08.512)

So, yeah, so the, so my background from a marketing perspective was, I used to do stuff that was focused on kind of the eyes and the ears and interrupting. And I thought marketing should be more about the experience and the experience that you specifically create for your clients and customers. and so for me, anyway, when, when I found what my personal purpose was,

my productivity soared because I had a clear kind of north star of where I wanted to go and that led me to do the work that I've done.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:48.384)

I can't wait to talk about you listening. You're North Star and my North Star and Stan's North Star. This sounds fun. Let's let's do this thing. And I got one other question for you before we dive in, though, and that's there's a lot of people who talk about marketing or talk about purpose or productivity. So I also want to know what do you think makes you different from all these other folks that talk about this topic?

Stan Phelps (03:10.758)

great question. what makes me, if I think about myself, we'll talk about maybe some purpose archetypes. I find myself as what I call the challenger archetype. You my purpose is to get people to think differently about how they treat their customers and employees. And so,

I think that separates me a little bit from, those that are quote unquote experts. also what, what separates me, it's not just my opinion. I've collected now more than more than 5 ,000 case studies. And what I do is look through these hundreds of examples to see where I can see how successful organizations navigate in this kind of new economy.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:50.85)

Mm

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:02.346)

Interesting. OK.

Stan Phelps (04:03.926)

And I truly believe We're in the 4.0 version, Brian, of business. And that purpose is at the center of that. So if I can quickly rewind, think you only have to, you know, The modern corporation or modern business organization really only dates back less than 125 years. Right. And

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:12.152)

Okay.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:30.69)

Yeah.

Stan Phelps (04:31.542)

For the first 75 years, who came first in the 1.0? It was all about the shareholder and the purpose of a company, if you were being honest for the first 75 years was just to do things to maximize the return to the shareholder. Not a really lofty goal or purpose.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:59.952)

You

Stan Phelps (05:01.27)

In the 1970s, so you only have to go back less than 50 years. I think there was a kind of a shift to the 2.0 and the 2 .0 said, yeah, profit is important and return to your share low is important, but ultimately you can't do this. you know, the purpose of business is to create and to keep a customer.

And so if you put your customers and your clients first, then ultimately you're going to be successful and you're going to generate that return for shareholders. The 3.0 Brian, think is, you know, dates back to maybe the early 1990s where there really was an understanding that, you can put the customers first every day of the week.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:28.888)

Yeah.

Stan Phelps (05:55.03)

But unless you have employees that are actually engaged in that mission, right? And in that, that you're never gonna be able to create those happy. So you can't create happy enthused customers unless you have happy engaged employees. So the 1990s in this 3 .0 was really a recognition of how important employees and culture was.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (06:02.669)

Yeah.

Stan Phelps (06:24.854)

Well, I think you only have to go back less than 15 years ago where we're in now what I call the 4.0 and that's where purpose comes first and that if you put purpose and if you understand your why, right? And especially for the younger generations coming in that really want meaning in what they do. If you put that at the center of what you do,

You get your employees more engaged in bought in your customers benefit from that. And ultimately you create an environment where you're creating that return for your shareholders. So putting purpose first.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:07.446)

Yeah. Purpose first. Well, that really, you kind of struck at the my my first question to you is going to be alright. So what do we really mean by purpose? So let's let's jump into that. So you said put purpose first. So what do mean by purpose? Is it the purpose of why we show up or the purpose of the business? Is that just the mission statement and everybody has a mission statement? Talk about

Stan Phelps (07:32.764)

No, I think there's a bit and we'll get into, I think there's a big difference between a mission and a purpose. So you think about any type of organization, maybe your purpose, Brian or mine or for any organization, it essentially started with the founder and why, what was the why behind creating the organization?

Stan Phelps (08:02.186)

To me, a strong purpose is like this guiding North Star. It's something that drives you. It helps you from a directional point of view. You may never get to that, that North Star, but it's always there as a guide in the background for why you do what you do. And I, you know, I'll give a lot of credit to Simon Sinek, who I think is really

Brian Nelson-Palmer (08:09.1)

There's the North Star. Yeah.

Stan Phelps (08:30.998)

kind of shine the light that people don't buy what you do. Essentially they buy how you do it. And maybe more importantly, why you do it. And the companies, the companies that do really do well have a strong understanding of, their why, and they're able to create meaning for the employees that, that are part of the organization.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:00.236)

Yeah. So it's the why behind what you do. do you have sort of an example on the difference between a mission statement versus your purpose or what that actually looks like in words?

Stan Phelps (09:14.676)

Yeah, so to me, if you understand what your purpose is, Brian, then your mission is the things that you do to kind of work towards that North Star or purpose. So if the purpose is the why, to me, the mission becomes the what. If the purpose is the calling for why you do what you do,

The mission becomes the job that leads you to that. If the purpose is all about the heart, to me, the mission is all about the head, right? And to me, the purpose is very ambitious, where the mission tends to be more pragmatic. Does that make sense? The purpose is about the goal. The mission is more about the plan. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:10.85)

Got it. That makes sense. then, so, so how do you, how do you know? How do know if you're acting on the right purpose?

Stan Phelps (10:24.502)

Well, I think, I think in a certain sense, and it's based on how our brain has evolved, Brian, I don't know if you've ever, know this, but 80 % of how we view other people comes down to just two basic questions. So the first question is always this. What is the intent of this person that I'm working with or we're dealing with?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:43.136)

OK.

Stan Phelps (10:52.372)

And then very quickly, number two is what's their ability to carry out that intent? So this is how our brain evolved. Our survival depended upon us making split second judgments about everyone and everything we came into contact with. And so that intent piece is what social psychologists call warmth. Warmth.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:52.62)

Yep.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:01.105)

Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:12.706)

Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:22.232)

done.

Stan Phelps (11:22.898)

And the ability to carry it out, they describe as competence, warmth and competence. And, here's the thing, when people understand why you do something, they understand your intent. That is a key critical driver of how people view you. And then of course, you can't survive without being competent.

Right, so you have to back up what you do. But let me ask you a question, Brian, what do you think's more important, warmth or competence?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:03.402)

It depends. My my immediate reaction is it depends. And it's because it depends on the circumstances and what I need.

Stan Phelps (12:08.2)

It depends. You have to get off the fence, but more often than not, what do you think is more important to people? Warm or competent?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:16.097)

Okay.

more often than not, competence, probably. Although warmth is what starts the you wouldn't engage with them if they're competent and not warm. having said that out loud, I think I'd probably warmth is probably the starting point.

Stan Phelps (12:35.144)

It is people value warmth more than competence. They're both important, but warmth trumps competence every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Yeah. So, so, so here's the thing. How do, how do people, and again, it's, we make these judgments at a very subconscious level and we make it very quickly. And then we start to look for things that confirm

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:50.05)

You know, that has to.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:59.181)

Yeah.

Stan Phelps (13:04.968)

our initial bias or judgment, right? So people understanding why you do what you do is absolutely key. And I think, you know, I think we used to live from when we thought about what we did for a living, we used to live in what a friend of mine calls the tyranny of or.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:09.038)

Okay.

Stan Phelps (13:34.398)

right, Brian, where you either had to pursue something that was truly gave you purpose and a sense of meaning. But if you did that, you live the life of like a struggling artist, right? Or, and the order that is you, did something that was, you know, very lucrative.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:34.402)

Okay.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:52.577)

Right. Yeah.

Stan Phelps (14:02.506)

but at the end of the day, there wasn't a sense of meaning or purpose in what you did. And so you might be very successful, but you might feel empty as a result. And I think we are now in a place where instead of the tyranny of war, my friend David Howitt calls it the power of and.

We can have purpose, but we don't have to sacrifice. We can have both, right? Profit and purpose. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:28.876)

Okay.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:38.136)

Yeah.

this. Yeah. Together. Do well so then that I loved that that interlude is really powerful with the I like the warmth part that it starts with warmth. That's really true when you think about all of your business relationships and who you refer, who you recommend. Most all of that is based on warmth. Even if it weren't competent, if you're going to refer your friend or colleague to somebody, and they were incredibly competent, but they were not warm, you would probably not

Stan Phelps (15:09.992)

No.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:10.044)

you wouldn't make that intro like job interviews, all of that. I love that tangent. And we

Stan Phelps (15:15.166)

And here's the thing, when you deal with somebody who is high warmth, you have a sense of why they do what they do. And then they're highly competent. Here's the feeling that we get from that experience is one of pride. Like we feel, we understand, we feel part. And absolutely to your point, we go out of our way, not only to come back, but to tell other people.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:31.203)

Yeah.

Stan Phelps (15:42.674)

about our experience and we become advocates for those organizations.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:46.722)

Yeah. Yeah. So then, and that kind of circles back to the question then on how do you know that you're acting on the right purpose? How do you know that you found it? You got it.

Stan Phelps (16:01.514)

Yeah, so great. So I think, I think intuitively we can feel it like in our gut when we know we're doing something. So I, I'm a big, big believer of like, listen to your gut, right? We can rationalize in our head, a lot of the things that we do, but we can feel when we're off course or we're off center and we're not doing something for the right reason.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:07.139)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Stan Phelps (16:29.394)

I think it's also a part of understanding who we are and what, when have we been in situations where we feel like we're kind of in the pocket or in the zone, like we're doing something that we believe in and that we're really good at it. We may not have mastered it, but we feel like we're truly engaged in what we do. And I think the more that we can understand that,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:42.691)

No.

Stan Phelps (16:56.84)

We can go from looking at something that we view just as a job Right and there's nothing wrong with having a job you get paid you can support your family you support yourself But I think we can start to move to from a job to more of a career And when you have a career you tend to be more invested Right, you're you're in it for the long haul But I think even if you have just a career

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:19.851)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Stan Phelps (17:25.672)

If you can move a little bit more further and get to where it feels like more of a calling, like this is what you would do even if you weren't getting paid for it, is where I think there's true power. And so I think it's trying to get move on that continuum to figure out where do we feel like we're more called and that we get energy back from doing the work that we do.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:32.334)

calling.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:42.861)

Yeah.

Stan Phelps (17:55.614)

And when we do that, and when we're fully engaged, we're more productive. and it just fuels us in terms of what we do. Whereas if we're doing something that we feel is more like a job, we tend to procrastinate. We tend not to be engaged. We don't take pride in what we do. and I think our productivity suffers.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:24.664)

You know, I think I, one of the phrases that always that I've, I've kind of lived helped change. It changed my life. This phrase changed my life and that there's only two answers to the question. Hell yes or no. And that's really it. And so when I, to go back to my question was, how do know you're on the right purpose? I think if you ask yourself that question and the answer is, I think so that's no, there is only two answers. And if it's not hell yes.

then it's no. And I think that drives to your point too, where if you ask yourself, is this my purpose? And your answer is hell yes, this is it, then I think you got it. But if it's maybe, then you're probably not quite there. No, that's not your purpose yet. You haven't found it yet. You can be close, but it's hell yes or no. And that seems to go with what you're describing is like you go from your career to your calling. I mean, I think it sort of all

Stan Phelps (19:21.758)

Right. Yeah. I agree. And here's, here's the thing. I think, there's a guy named Mike McCallowitz and I love how he says this. says, we need to move away from B hags. Do know what a B hag is? A big, hairy, audacious goal. Right. So, you know,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:22.594)

the same soup that we're talking about here.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:42.996)

a data goal. Yes. Yeah. they got so many of those phrases. Yeah. I've never heard me hag but

Stan Phelps (19:49.438)

And what I love, what he talks about, says, we need to get rid of the BHAG and get what he calls a bang. And a bang is a big, audacious, noble goal. Right? How do we get in touch with something that we've truly believe in? And how can we, know, towards that North Star, how do we create something

that really taps into that, that we can feel good as we move towards it, right? And it aligns with what our purpose is. So I'm a big fan of that. You know, my big purpose is to get people to think differently about how they market their businesses and to be more about the customer and less about thinking about marketing as, you know, like trying to chase the prospect and get them in the funnel.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:47.244)

Right. Yeah. gosh. I feel you there. My my purpose is to teach personal practical productivity skills, but not so that you can then work more hours or do more stuff. The point is, if you're more productive, that means you are a top performer at work and there is still time for you to have the amazing life you want to have to. Because if all you do is work, that's where the midlife crisis and that's just so I'm with you on.

It's the why the why is not so that you can work more or do more work or work more hours. It's so that you can have that time. So I, yeah, I like that Stan. So we've been

Stan Phelps (21:25.59)

Sure. You can have the power of and work and life, right?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:30.286)

Yes, it is the whole work. mean, work life balance. This all came to the forefront with COVID, especially I've been doing this long before COVID. But, that was the, that was the piece that really started. People were paying attention because now you used to be forced to separate them because you were working at work and you were at home at home. so life created the differentiation for you. But when you do them both at home now,

You have to figure that out and you have to defend your life. It's easy to anyway. That's a total side note. But yes, that man, the why I love this conversation. It's giving me goosebumps, Dan. I like this like, all right, we're on this. We're on this right track. It's like the feels good. So let's let's take that pivot then because the purpose it was talking about how purpose changes your levels up your productivity. So let's say you're on the right path or you're close your hell yes, your

Stan Phelps (22:03.381)

Right.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:28.93)

You got the North Star, you're headed toward the North Star. now how does that, what does that have to do with productivity?

Stan Phelps (22:32.063)

Right.

Stan Phelps (22:37.6)

Well, again, I think when you're aligned with what you do and why you do it, it just makes the how that much easier. You're just more focused and more engaged in what you do. And we all know how we feel when we're, we've got a hundred percent engagement towards something rather than trying to just check something off the list. And, and my,

my lens that I look through is to try to get people away from just transactional the transactional nature of business right you give me x I give you y and the problem with that it's a zero -sum game brian where where can you go when you you want x I give you y it's equal you can't go anywhere

So what I love is this concept of doing a little bit more, something that gets added as part of the transaction. It's a term that comes from New Orleans. It's called Lanyard. And it dates all the way back to the 1800s. And it was back then and it's still around now. It's typical.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (23:58.455)

Okay.

Stan Phelps (24:06.102)

for a business to do a little something added to honor the relationship. And to me, when you can start doing that and you can start doing little things that kind of elevate your purpose and bring it to life in service of your clients is when it gets really powerful.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:29.346)

Yeah, it's that little something extra. that it's the it's what they always say exceeds expectations. It's the exceed, but it's planned exceeds expectations, not just oops. I'm so glad you're happy and you loved it that much. It's no, I plan to make it that good that much. And here's the plan on how we try to do that.

Stan Phelps (24:46.354)

Right and here And here's the thing this is this was the turning point that led me on this this kind of moment of truth We all have moments of truth that lead us on these journeys for me brian, It was a simple interaction that I had in New York City. I'm at one of these rooftop bars And i'm waiting with a colleague. We're about to go to a networking event

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:00.163)

Yeah.

Stan Phelps (25:12.7)

And I meet this older gentleman who's on his own. and he's obvious. He's waiting for someone as well. And I just strike up a conversation and somehow we got on the idea of being on time and the importance of being on time. And I'll never forget it, Brian. He looked at me in the eye and he said, no one in life is ever on time.

And I said, wait a second. go, I've been on time before. go, not often, but I've been on time. And I'll never forget, he stuck his finger in my face and he gave me the Dikembe finger wave. And he went, no, no, no. And he doubled down. goes, Brian, goes like this. goes, he goes, in fact, he said, on time is a myth. He said, no one in life ever is just on time. He said, people in life.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:44.444)

huh.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:49.698)

Yeah

Stan Phelps (26:08.328)

are either early

or they're late. He said, no one is ever just on time. And I'll never forget, I took the train home where I was living in Connecticut at the time. And I thought to myself, that same reasoning applies to everything we do. And think about things that we do for the clients and the customers that we serve. Does anyone just simply meet expectations?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:34.466)

Yeah. Yeah.

Stan Phelps (26:40.596)

And if you use that same reasoning, no, you either exceed them or you fall short. And so given the choice of doing more or doing less, I started to look for companies that did little things. Now, as it relates to purpose, the fifth book in my series is called the Red Goldfish. And it was inspired, why Red was inspired by Bono.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:58.434)

Mm

Stan Phelps (27:10.194)

of U2. Are you familiar with the red campaign?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:10.934)

Okay. Okay.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:16.107)

No, tell me about that.

Stan Phelps (27:18.742)

So the red campaign, there's just a ton of companies that have kind of partnered in this, but it's a very simple concept. So Apple, for example, as part of the red campaign, they will create a certain product, maybe like an iPhone that's red. And the idea is it's a limited edition product, special product. And when you buy it, certain, certain part of your purchase goes towards

charity. And so it was this model that could raise money, not by just giving money, but by buying something and being working with for profits that gave a little something back as part of it. And so the red goldfish, my, my coauthor and I, Graham Newell, we looked at over 300 organizations.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:51.277)

Interesting.

Stan Phelps (28:17.556)

that really were purpose driven of how they did little things to be able to bring their purpose to life for both their employees and their customers.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:20.835)

Okay.

Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:27.875)

Got it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:32.376)

That's so a little something extra and to give back. I like this. Are we?

Stan Phelps (28:36.084)

Yeah. And to bring that purpose in the wide of life. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:41.87)

So let's circle back to the productivity part of it then. So if you have your purpose and you said that has everything to do with your productivity, it, are we talking really about it's the want and the desire, I found my why, so you're willing to do more and so you're more enthusiastic, which means you do more or is there, talk about the productivity aspect of it.

Stan Phelps (29:06.048)

So I think when you understand your why, again, I think you're more engaged. I also think you're more resilient, right? You're able to look at things not as problems, but as challenges. And every challenge can be addressed. And when you realize that, hey,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:17.431)

Okay.

Stan Phelps (29:33.534)

I'm working towards this higher purpose. You realize, Hey, in your lifetime, you may never get to that North star, but if you can see incremental progress to me, that fuels productivity. and here's the thing we, again, I'm going to go back to, do a lot of work with organizations around employee engagement. And when people are bought into the Y for the organization,

They're more productive. They stick around longer and they're more engaged in what they do. And just as a byproduct of that, again, having that engagement being bought in, you tend to be more productive.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:13.667)

Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:24.664)

You know, I think it's probably important that we talk about the the focus that it gives you by locking in on that purpose, too, because productivity just isn't just about the number of widgets or the number of emails you respond to or the number of tasks you complete. But it's also about moving you toward that North Star. And so if you're focused on that purpose, it also keeps you from going off all of the side tangents that come up.

all the time. Your boss has, here the boss comes and they say, hey, I think we might have a, you know, a new opportunity here to do something else, to add to what we're already doing. And everybody's looking at the boss going, I'm already busy. What do you, what, with what bandwidth do, should we do this? And the boss is thinking it's a good idea. Cause maybe they went to a conference or they got some idea from somebody and they read some book and they're like, let's do, let's do this too.

And you could look at them and talk about the North Star and say, hey, did we, does this fit that? Is this going to move us closer to that? And is it better than all the other things that we're already doing at doing that? And that way it keeps you because by choosing not to do the things that won't take you to the North Star, you will go significantly faster toward that North Star by maintaining that focus on your purpose, your why. think that's

Stan Phelps (31:23.434)

Right.

Stan Phelps (31:32.192)

towards that.

Stan Phelps (31:36.948)

Right.

Stan Phelps (31:51.496)

Right. Yeah. And here's the thing, the Gen Z's that are now coming into the workplace and have for the last decade almost, they're looking at meaning and purpose and they're putting that ahead of compensation. They're the first generation to do that entering the workforce. So if you can't be able to attach meaning to what they do,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:52.696)

That's huge.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:16.493)

Really?

Stan Phelps (32:22.526)

And you can't, in addition, you can't give them the flexibility of how they do that. They're going to find somewhere that does.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:33.666)

Man, Stan, I don't know. I struggle with that. Because I think, I mean, you listening, if you listening right now, think about your own paycheck. If they, if you were to have an outstanding purpose and your money were to, and the pay that you're getting were to be less. I see them both as tied, but I have a hard time thinking that they would choose purpose over compensa

I don't know. It's the you're you challenged me earlier with you have to pick one. And so I guess I see that but ooh, I just

Stan Phelps (33:06.954)

Again, I don't think it's an or, it's an and. And here's the thing. Again, I'm just saying as they rate opportunities that they're thinking about, purpose and meaning is more important. And here's the thing, when they get into the organization, if the organization's values don't live up,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:10.891)

and yep.

Stan Phelps (33:37.287)

to kind of what they've been told, six out of seven will leave when the values no longer fit with their own and what they've been kind of sold when they're coming in.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:51.778)

Yeah. Wow, that's I mean, it's definitely true. And I think to to some extent, every one of us thinks about that, too, because even if you have like earlier, you were talking about you have the really high compensation, but not good purpose. And then over time, it just it's not really sustainable. And then at some point, you're just going to it's the midlife crisis. It's the my gosh, what have I been doing with my life?

The people who are really mission oriented don't have midlife crisis is where they need to go buy the sports car and like that's not a thing. If the why and the North Star, they've been headed that direction. So like the compensation. Yeah, it's the end because you can't you do need to have some of that purpose and you can find that purpose in a lot of different ways. It doesn't have to be. I feel like there is I don't know. Tell me what you think about this, Dan, because

Stan Phelps (34:32.51)

Right, right. There's alignment.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:49.674)

I have always struggled with the idea. Like for example, I'm a diabetic and I need health insurance. And so I maintain a day job, though productivity gladiator is my calling. And I do that because I have to pay my bills and diabetes is a freaking expensive disease to have to live with every day. So I don't have the luxury yet of only doing the North star free, burn the boats, forget everything else. I'm just going to figure it out. So

Stan Phelps (35:09.984)

Right.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:19.242)

I found an and, and my day job career is actually pretty fulfilling. So I think there is a world where you can be, if you're moving toward your North star, maybe at a little slower pace and the day job compliments that, you can do that sustainably. I don't feel like I have a midlife crisis and I need to quit everything and buy a sports car.

Stan Phelps (35:46.592)

Right.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:48.792)

freaking love the life I have. I struggle with that sometimes because I agree that if there's one purpose, it makes it easier. But I do think that there's balance. Talk about that.

Stan Phelps (36:00.31)

Well, I, I don't think it's an or thing, right? And I think there's the power in the AND. You can do both. In fact, you know, it's like 40% now, of people in the workplace, don't just have one job. They have multiple jobs, right? And, and, and this is interesting. This is the first time.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:20.279)

my

Stan Phelps (36:28.534)

I talked about Gen Z earlier. This is the first generation that when they asked, would you want to go work for a company or would you rather work for yourself? Over 60 % picked, I'd rather work for myself. And then they're also the first generation. Like I say, if there's one word that really encapsulates them, it's integration.

Right? They don't see like I'm a gen X or for us it was work life balance, right? Work hard, play hard for them. It's like they can wake up in the morning, work, take time and take time in the late morning for themselves. Go back. mean, literally go back and forth. That's inconceivable to probably my generation. They can work two or three jobs.

Right. And I think part of that is probably there's probably a side hustle or something that they do that's really fulfilling to them that allows them to have, you know, the life that they want, and the control and flexibility that they want as well.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:42.776)

It's true.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:47.148)

Yeah. I like that. Well, Stan talk about, so what does your purpose need? Let's say you're, you're sitting here. We, we, we asked that question earlier. We talked about if you're not at the right purpose, then, you know, it's the hell yes or no. If you're thinking about your purpose and where you're going right now and the answer is not hell yes. Then what is your purpose need? What do you do? Stan? What's your advice to that person? Listen.

Stan Phelps (38:14.646)

Well, I don't know if I have a ton of advice for for from a personal perspective other than To trust your gut look back in your life when you've been the most engaged where you felt A strong attachment to what you did you felt meaning in what you did? When my co -author graham and I looked across these 300 organizations

My struggle was, Hey, it's not just important to know your why, but I said, are there types of wise out there? Because I wanted companies to go, I can see myself in this archetype, right? My purpose might ultimately be different. So I'll give you, there's eight archetypes. When we looked across these hundreds of organizations. and really quickly, the first is what we call the protector.

archetype. So think of like Patagonia out there. They're all about the environment, right? Giving back, creating more sustainable world. The second type is the liberator and the liberator is all about freedom. It's about finding new ways to do things. you know,

Giving people personal freedom. like Harley Davidson is a what I call a liberator, liberator archetype. They're all about helping people define their own freedom and identity through my motorcycling. the third one is the designer. You know, the designer is looking at new ways to be able to do things like Apple's a great example of like a designer brand. How can they create simplicity? The fourth is.

what we call the guide. And so the guide kind of helps people navigate. so Google is a great example of of the guide. The fifth is what we call the advocate and the advocate is they stand up and they're you know they they're advocating for a group or a cause or something like AARP is a great example of an advocate.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:16.172)

Hmm.

Stan Phelps (40:33.204)

The, the, the six type is the challenger and the challengers, you know, I put myself in that category. It's really challenging people's way of doing things and figuring out maybe there's a better way. And it pains me to say this because I used to work for Adidas, but Nike to me is the ultimate challenger brand.

They're like, if you have a body, you're an athlete. Like everyone can be an athlete. and they give you the tools and the tips and the motivation to be able to go out and achieve the seventh type is what we call the unifier. And the unifier is about kind of bringing people together. and like whole foods is a great example of that. Like really trying to.

through their packaging and through everything they do to kind of bring more sustainability and define what organic means. They're trying to unify the industry. The last one is what we call the master. And this is kind of like Jedi type of stuff or like Yoda would be the example. We have

people that represent each of these archetypes and like Yoda is the one, the ultimate master. And that's really rethinking the way an industry works and being super attached to purpose. like Warby Parker is a great example of like revolutionizing eyewear, but doing it in a way that be able, gives back in a sustainable way.

And also leads the way for how other organizations can act in that manner So protector liberator designer guide advocate challenger Unifier master to me if you can see yourself in one of those archetypes it may be easier for you to Understand what really motivates you for your why?

Stan Phelps (42:48.852)

And at least from an organizational level, that's what I was really happy with being able to contribute to that conversation.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:57.472)

And Stan, I want to yes and you on that because I love there are definitely a couple of those archetypes that I think that I identify with and it makes sense that you and I know each other and we keep in touch and stuff because challenger is one of the ones that I also because that's productivity gladiator is about challenging the way that you've always done your personal practical activity stuff. And how do we level that up? But also for the wise. So like I identify with some of that.

Stan Phelps (43:20.159)

Right?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:26.55)

And my yes and here is if you're listening to this or watching this and you want more purpose, there is this fallacy that I think is out there that I want to I want to squash this right now, which is you don't have to totally quit your job and quit your life and start over to get going in that direction. What you can do instead and what I hope that you'll do two things. One, if you're miserable at your job,

and you definitely know you need to totally shift because your eight hours that you work is just painful, then think about One of the biggest hurdles that people have is the golden handcuffs. You talked about getting the money back, right? You like you, you make a good salary so you don't want to lose how far you've come in the salary bracket and go all the way back to the start. And you can't do that. People with families can't do that. People with diabetes can't do that. But what you can do is find the companies that are

Stan Phelps (44:01.216)

Right.

Stan Phelps (44:07.637)

Right.

Stan Phelps (44:14.933)

Right.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:23.99)

like the archetype, like you just said, and find one that is tangentially related to the career you already have and the experience you have. so you won't drop down. So like, for example, it was, I'm going to call her out. My sister was was trying to make a switch and she was in, She worked in property management and She wanted to get out of property management. But

Stan Phelps (44:33.652)

Right.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:49.962)

She if you go to another career, you have to go all the way back to the bottom. So instead, what you can do is what are the things that are tangentially related to property management where all that experience counts for something, but the business does something else. So it could be property management software or it could be a service that supports property management or it could be something with Airbnb or something where all of that property management counts for something.

Stan Phelps (44:54.346)

Right.

Stan Phelps (45:10.432)

right.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:16.972)

And same thing if you're in I .T. and you're tired of writing code and you want to bring it like that's that's that thing. So if you look for the companies that have the archetype like Stan's talking about and you look for the ones that are tangentially related to what you have, that's a way for you to make a move without having to go. It's like shoots and ladders where you take the shoot that goes all the way back to the beginning and starting like, no, don't do that. You don't have to or volunteer, volunteer with everybody. These volunteers volunteer with an organization, find a nonprofit that does this.

Stan Phelps (45:36.606)

Right.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (45:45.996)

and volunteer with them and try it out. Start the hardest part is to start. So that's I hope that you'll you'll take Stan's idea of archetypes. I love, love, love that. And don't just sit on it. Do something about it with take a little step. Try a little something. Go volunteer. Bring your family to volunteer. You know, there's there's ways to do this. That's a.

Stan Phelps (45:49.438)

Right.

Stan Phelps (45:58.602)

Right.

Stan Phelps (46:07.022)

And I think what's interesting is that it used to be, and again, go back business wise. It was always an or question. were either for profit or you were nonprofit. And now with B Corpse.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:20.534)

Not productive. Yeah.

Stan Phelps (46:24.498)

certified B Corps, corporate benefit corporations. there's now this gray area between the two. And this was the premise of our book is that going forward, people will not look at you either as nonprofit or for profit. They will either look at you as for purpose or not for purpose. And they're going to want to work for

and do business with companies that are for purpose. And that's where I think you have to align yourself going forward.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:53.272)

Bye bye.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:03.148)

Yeah, Stan, talk about this for you. What does this mean for you personally? What drives you about this? This is your North Star, but what is it about this that drives you? What does this mean for you?

Stan Phelps (47:20.298)

Well, for me, through the keynotes and the workshops that I give, it all ties back to that initial purpose, which was to get people to think differently about business and less about trying to attract the prospect and more about taking care of the customers. And so my marketing background, I thought the customer was the end all and be all.

And then I realized, no, because the companies that I studied that really got it for the customers put their employees first. And then when I started to study the companies that really put their employees first, I realized really quickly, hey, they're also really steeped in why they do what they do. And they put purpose before even their employees.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:01.397)

No.

Stan Phelps (48:19.35)

And so everything I've done now that 11, 11 different colors in the series, and we've talked about red, you know, it's all been for me, how my thinking has evolved over, over the years and how I've looked at different things, but it's all led back to that North star of rethinking business, and putting more of an emphasis on the experience that we provide, what I call

a differentiated experience.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:52.098)

Yeah. Now, Stan, we've talked about a lot today. If people are interested in our conversation, and well, I say we've talked about a lot, but also you've written a lot of books about this now. You're quite accomplished in the author. If you haven't looked up Stan, check out his books. I'll drop the link so you can see his books there. But oftentimes, where do you start in that? So if you were really inspired by Stan and I's conversation, Stan, which book should they pick up to start with what we've been talking about?

Stan Phelps (49:22.014)

Yeah, I think either red goldfish or you could go back to, call it the OG, the original goldfish. That's purple. And the first three in the series is purple, customers, green is employees, and gold are your most important customers and employees.

Stan Phelps (49:49.96)

And that was strategic because the three colors of Mardi Gras are purple, green, and gold. And New Orleans, New Orleans is the birthplace of that word I shared before, Lanyap, the idea of doing a little bit more, a little bit more that the, to honor the relationship. And, yeah. And then I'm not going to share the rest of the colors cause we'd be here all day.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (50:17.78)

Right? Well, and I thought that was an incognito way of you telling us that you're actually kind of a party boy and you just like to, mean, it's Mardi Gras. And so like, heck yeah, let's get the beads and let's go down to Bourbon Street. Come on, baby. Like I thought that's where we were going. So, there's a profound meeting. land yap. All right. Got it. I got, there's a piece of me that's disappointed, but someday we'll go to Mardi Gras together, Stan. And I'm sure that'll be a heck of a good time.

Stan Phelps (50:37.845)

Right.

Well, I always loved sharing this Mark Twain in his autobiography, you know, he spent a fair amount of time in New Orleans when he was young. He said in his, in his autobiography said, land yap is a word worth traveling all the way to New Orleans to get. And so my, my hope is we've saved maybe Rob, some people have some fun today, but we saved them some time and money.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (51:12.518)

sure. I you know, you didn't have to travel all the way to get it. You discovered it. Stan revealed the secret you you secret teller you look at you. That's funny. Well, Stan, here's what I love. I love that you're taking this, this purpose in this land yap and these these these nuggets that you've that you've captured over the years and that you're putting them into these books and the speaking and all of the work that you're doing. I saw Stan

I give a presentation, a keynote at a conference that he and I were both speaking at back in, gosh, it was 2014, 2015. And yeah, boy, it's scary to think how long ago that was. But at the same time, I definitely remember looking around and everyone in the room was very focused in on what Stan was saying because he talked about himself as a challenger archetype. And Stan, will absolutely vouch for testimonial given right here that

Stan Phelps (51:48.118)

10 years ago, 10 years ago, yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:09.794)

challenge your archetype and helping you think a little differently and think more profoundly. I give you a super high mark. So I love that you're doing this and continue to do this because it's not easy being speaking and author and all of that. That's not an easy path for sure. So thanks for doing this and thanks for joining me on the show today.

Stan Phelps (52:30.516)

Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:33.982)

And I'll drop the links to your books, especially the red and the purple as starting points for folks if they're just checking out the Goldfish series first. last thing, why Goldfish?

Stan Phelps (52:45.046)

So goldfish is a metaphor for growth. So the average goldfish is about the size of your thumb, just over three inches. If you had to guess, Brian, what do you think the largest goldfish in the world is? Not a carp or a koi. How many inches? Yeah, largest goldfish in the world.

Stan Phelps (53:17.462)

almost 20 inches right

Brian Nelson-Palmer (53:21.847)

That's from your like your elbow to your hand. I mean,

Stan Phelps (53:25.258)

That is the size of an average domesticated house cat. That's average. That's average, right? And so the quick, and I'll try to do it quick for you. It would be like you walking out of your house right now or your apartment, right? And bumping into somebody who's three stories tall.

Stan Phelps (53:55.764)

Right? How is that? We can't even conceive that right? five to six times our size, but here's the deal. If you're a goldfish, your, they grow their entire life. Their growth is impacted by five factors. And here's the thing. Those same five factors apply to everyone and their business. And I'll go through them really quick to tell you the goldfish growth factor.

Stan Phelps (54:25.598)

Most people have heard the first one, Brian, the size of the bowl or the pond will influence your ability to grow. So if you're a goldfish, the bigger the bowl, the bigger the pond, the more they grow. What is the size of the bowl or the pond? If you're in business, it's simply the market, right? The market for people that are interested in productivity.

Stan Phelps (54:55.432)

right? The market for people who are looking for a keynote speaker or workshop facilitator. Here's number two and it's dead simple. If you're a goldfish, your growth is also determined by the amount of other goldfish in the bowl or the pond and this one works in the opposite direction. The more goldfish there are, it tends to limit their growth. So, who are the other goldfish in business?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (55:20.654)

Interesting.

the other companies, the other organizations. Yep.

Stan Phelps (55:25.694)

Other yeah, you're a competition The third one is the most difficult for a goldfish. They're also Influence their growth is influenced by the surrounding environment that they're in So the quality of the water that they're in will also play a role in their growth. So the nutrients the clarity of the water So what's that in business? It's simply the economy

Right? All of those outside factors influence your ability to grow. Number four is how they, a goldfish does in its first four months of life.

Stan Phelps (56:09.622)

So they're tiny when they're born. have 80 to a hundred brothers and sisters. You imagine that they're the size of a top of a pin. and so how they do in that critical period will also be a factor of their growth. And so we say in business, what do you call your first four months of life in business? You're a startup, right? And how you get started.

Stan Phelps (56:37.862)

is a big factor in how well you ultimately do. Number five is genetic makeup. Right? So what is that goldfish born with that kind of separates it from all the other goldfish and the stronger their genes are and the more that they're separated, the bigger they typically grow. Conversely, if their genes are weak,

and they're like everyone else, the less they typically grow. So what do you think genetic makeup is if you're in business? How you're, what makes you different? Yeah, it's your differentiation. And we're gonna come right back to what we've talked about today. You don't differentiate by what you do.

Stan Phelps (57:31.806)

Right? If we're being honest, we live in the day of the internet. There's a ton of other people that do what we do. Right? How do you differentiate? You differentiate by how you do it. And maybe more importantly, why you do it, the warmth and the competence, right? And so I tell people, right? If you've already been in business for more than four months,

Stan Phelps (58:00.598)

You and I've been both doing this for more than 10 years. We're out of the remaining four things. What do you control? Okay. Do you control the market? No. How about your competition?

Stan Phelps (58:16.928)

How about the economy? know, please, I tell people I joke, go, please see me afterwards, right? The only thing you control is how you differentiate.

Stan Phelps (58:32.68)

and stand out. And again, it's not by what you do. It's why you do it. And I think is equally important. It's how you do it. What's the experience that you provide as you deliver that what? And so that's the metaphor of the goldfish is that if you think about it, it's just a metaphor for growth via differentiation.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (59:04.428)

Yeah. I love it, Stan. Well, if folks want to keep in touch with you and what you've got going on, where's the best place for them to find you?

Stan Phelps (59:13.856)

So I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. Reach out to me or follow me on LinkedIn. You can also look me up at stanfelps .com.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (59:23.276)

You got it. I'll drop those those links in the in the notes. So open up the notes in the show in this episode and check him out. So thanks again, Stan. This is great. And for you tuning in right now, can I give you something? Do you have a friend or colleague who you've talked about purpose with? You've had these conversations like, why are we doing this or should I make a change or that kind of thing? Would you share the link to this episode specifically?

with them right now, because Stan and I would love to know that our conversation actually touched people that are facing purpose and productivity and leveling up their productivity. The purpose question, a few texts back and forth directly with you, not post on social media, but like a direct text to a friend that because you thought about them, that would that's going to fill up their cup in your cup way more than any sort of posting on.

So that's my request is if you could text somebody the link to this episode, if you thought about them, please do that for your friendship with them. That'd be amazing. Yes, more hell yes. Please find that. Yes. And and hell yes, that's I love it. And and whether you've joined my membership and you've taken or you've taken the first step of joining the email list or this is just your very first episode, I love sharing productivity gladiator with you because together

Stan Phelps (01:00:28.478)

More hell yeses, right, Brian? Yes And…

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:00:49.57)

these productivity skills are going to change your life. That's a wrap.

5 Productivity Hacks We Disagree On - With Eric Girard

This episode features a debate between Brian and Eric Girard. There are 5 productivity hacks that these two disagree on. The discussion includes: tasks written on calendar vs to-do list, planning out every minute of the day on your calendar, wake-up times (early vs. late), meditation, and the use of Amazon Subscribe & Save. Throughout the episode, both participants present their opposing viewpoints. Which side do you agree with? What did they miss or not consider?

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The Audio/Podcast

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References In This Episode

• The 10 day meditation course and challenge Brian referred to from Headspace.

• Amazon’s Subscribe & Save program information.

• Chewy’s Autoship program.

• Eric’s Girard Training Solutions organization, and podcast: Management Development Unlocked

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Episode Digest

5 Hacks That Divide These Two Experts

In a recent episode of the Productivity Gladiator podcast, host Brian squares off against guest Eric Girard on five contentious productivity hacks. Their lively debate highlights how even seasoned professionals can disagree on best practices. Let's break down their arguments:

1. Tasks: On The Calendar vs. On A To-Do List

• Brian advocates for keeping tasks on a separate to-do list, arguing that calendars should be reserved for time-specific commitments.

• Eric prefers putting tasks directly on his calendar, a habit he's maintained since school.

Key Debate Points: Scalability, handling timeless tasks, and the risk of losing track of items when they're not completed on schedule.

2. Daily Planning: Structured vs. Flexible

• Eric plans out every hour of his day for maximum efficiency.

• Brian leaves open space in his schedule, valuing flexibility to handle unexpected tasks or opportunities.

The Crux: Does rigid planning boost productivity, or does it create more work through constant rescheduling?

3. Wake-Up Times: Early Bird vs. Night Owl

• Eric champions the 5 AM wake-up, embracing the "early bird gets the worm" philosophy.

• Brian prefers a later start, arguing for the benefits of evening productivity and social life in the evenings.

Discussion Point: How do these choices impact work-life balance and overall productivity?

4. Meditation: Essential or “Meh”

• Eric swears by morning meditation to sharpen his mind for the day ahead.

• Brian finds meditation puts him to sleep, reserving it for those 4 AM can't-sleep moments.

The Question: Is meditation a productivity booster or just another task on the to-do list?

5. Amazon Subscribe & Save: Convenience or Hassle

• Brian is all-in on Subscribe & Save, praising its convenience and cost savings.

• Eric prefers on-demand purchasing, wary of accumulating unnecessary items.

Core Issue: Does automating purchases save time and money, or lead to waste and clutter?

The Takeaway

This debate showcases how personal productivity can be. What works for one expert might be counterproductive for another. As you listen to the episode, consider:

• Which side do you lean towards on each topic?

• What factors in your life influence these preferences?

• Are there additional perspectives or nuances the hosts might have overlooked?

Remember, you have to TRY both sides in order to truly have an informed opinion. The hosts are coming at these perspectives having tried both sides and developed their opinion. The best productivity system is the one that works for you.

Don't be afraid to experiment and adapt these strategies to fit your unique needs and lifestyle.

Chapters

— Introduction

— The Calendar vs. To-Do List Debate

— Planning Every Hour vs. Leaving Open Space

— Early Riser vs. Late Riser: Workout Preferences

— Meditation: A Tool for Focus or Sleep?

— Amazon Subscribe and Save: Convenience or Clutter?

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Today’s Guest

ERIC GIRARD
CEO, GIRARD TRAINING SOLUTIONS

Eric Girard has over 30 years of experience helping improve the performance of managers and employees. He specializes in the development of new managers, focusing on their successful transition to their new role and on their team management skills. He has a high-energy and engaging facilitation style.

Eric is a passionate, lifelong learner. As a PADI Open Water Scuba Instructor, he is pursuing the rating of Master Scuba Diver Trainer. When not designing or delivering training, he enjoys spending time outdoors with his wife and twin 14-year-old daughters.

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/ericpgirard

Instagram: instagram.com/eric.p.girard

Website: girardtrainingsolutions.com

Podcast: girardtrainingsolutions.com/podcast

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. Graduates wield time management & life balance superpowers, activate a laser-guided ability to focus & prioritize, and implement a sniper-precise approach to task & email management. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!

Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. And on this show, I share personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, it's a debate. I want to pull you into a disagreement I've been having with Eric Gerard. We disagree about five productivity hacks. And we decided to record that disagreement and each of us making the case for our side and bring it to you because we wanted to see what you thought. See, I first met Eric

A while back, we did an episode called 10 time management hacks for new managers and I disagreed with them then. And I'm glad life has come back around so that I can share that disagreement with you now. So who's side are you on? Am I right? Is he right? Let me know what you think.

Hello, my name is Eric Girard and I'm the CEO of Girard Training Solutions. My focus is all about helping new managers transform from being great individual contributors to outstanding people managers. And with me today is Brian Nelson -Palmer. Brian, who are you?

Thank you so much, Eric. And I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. I am the founder of Predictivity Gladiator. And similar to you, I teach personal practical productivity skills and my target audience is recently promoted office people managers. So if you're managing a team, how do we get you more productive to get all of the things done and not be overwhelmed? And so I've been doing this for years and years. I've got a whole training school and session and curriculum that we follow. And I'm so passionate about this thing. And today,

The whole reason for that is because today, Eric, what are we doing, man? Let's debate. We are going to have a slap down. So the whole idea, we are going to have, we are going to have a productivity slap down. you listen, if you listen to me for any length of time at all, you know that I am passionate about productivity. addition to making new managers successful, I also think that new managers and everybody ought to be productive and effective and efficient. So I have strong opinions about certain things like calendaring and so on.

Brian also has strong opinions. And so we are going to surface those strong opinions in a duel. And we will have this conversation and we will see what you think in the comments and in the forums that we post these sessions in. Absolutely. Want to hear your thoughts because Eric and I straight up disagree. Like we were talking the other day and it's like, you know what?

I totally disagree with you, dude. No, it shouldn't be that way. It should be this way. And we found five topics that are exactly things that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. So now we want to get you in on this. What do you think? And I'm to share my side. He's going to share his side. So let's debate these things. So Eric, what do we got, man? What's first? I'll tell you what, why don't you run down the list of topics and then we will, we will cruise through this from top to bottom. Top top. That's very organized. All right. Five things we're going to talk about first.

Do you put your tasks on your calendar or do you put it somewhere else like on a to do list? We've got different thoughts. Second, do you plan out every hour of the day or do you leave open space in your calendar? Are you more is it all about planning more of the day? Third, are you an early riser and an early gym person or a late riser? A later gym person. Fourth one, meditation. Do you meditate? Do you not meditate? Is it good? Is it not good?

Eric and I disagree. And the last one, the fifth one, let's talk about Amazon, subscribe and save because subscriptions and getting your stuff delivered automatically. I think one thing he thinks another. So game on, let's talk about those. All right. Game on. What's our first prompt again, please, sir. You put your tasks on a calendar or do you, do you put everything on the calendar? So Eric, I know you're a calendar guy and I totally disagree. I do not think you put tasks on a calendar.

I am absolutely a calendar guy. My motto is if it's on the calendar, it gets done. And so if you were to look at my calendar today, actually today is Friday, so it's a pretty light day. But for example, looking at any other day this week, you will see a reminder to get into social media, to meditate, to go to a class and teach a class, to call a friend for his birthday, to study for an event that's coming up. it's

all in my calendar. My calendar is my task list. That doesn't mean that it's incredibly rigid, though. So, you know, in case you think that my life is, is, you know, like a like a military marching band. It's not like that. There's definitely room for things to move. I think the military marching band guys out there, but yes, well, I'm just saying I was just I was I was reaching I was grasping. Yeah.

But I'm just trying to think of something that was really, really strictly organized in military and marching bands are very strictly organized. So anyway, if something's going to move, something can move. But otherwise, at the end of the day, I'm done with that task list. I've accomplished everything there. And that means that at the end of the day, at five o 'clock, I can switch gears, go upstairs to my family and hang out and not worry about work. Brian, what do you think? Nice. I totally disagree, Eric. I think.

You do not put your tasks on your calendar. Here's what I think. I think you're wrong. I know. I think you're wrong. I already think you're wrong. You haven't started speaking and I'm telling you you're wrong. I think your tasks go on a to -do list and your calendar is for where you need to be. So I teach the calendar is where you put the thing, the places you need to be like physically, virtually your presence is required at this location could be virtual. It could be this team meeting or whatever it is, where you need to be is your calendar. And what you need to do is your to -do list.

And here's why I think that because like I started out as a calendar guy like you. And I know where it came from. If you think back, I don't know for you, Eric, for me, elementary school, I had a day planner. And so they give you that little agenda day planner thing when you're in elementary school and you write down your tasks and your to do's and your assignments and it's a little calendar thing. But then there's never really a course that talks about what happens when things get more bigger. They don't there's not really a process for that. So when I started my work career, I was still in that mode.

And there's three issues with that. First one, what happens if there's not a date for the item that you have to do? So Eric, I'm going to ask you these three questions because this is my, have three issues with putting tasks on a calendar. So the first one is first issue. What happens if there's not a date for the item for me in the to -do list? I have a someday maybe or a waiting follow -up list.

where if I have to come back to it, goes to waiting follow up. If it's a something that I don't want to lose track of, but it does, there's not a date associated with when it comes back someday. Maybe I'll get back to it. Then it goes on that list. So I have my three to do lists and I'm either doing it or waiting to do it or someday maybe. And so that's what works. But for you, if you're putting it on calendar, what happens if there's not a date or a time for that thing? There is always a date. There's always a day and a time for a thing to get done. Okay.

Everything has its place. And so, for example, there's a note here where I need to update my referral partners in my CRM. That's not an urgent task, but it's on the calendar to take care of and it's going to get done. Whereas if I had it on a a to do list to do someday, someday would never come for me. It would just never come. I'm ADD enough that it just it just wouldn't happen. And so having it on the calendar is like, I need to do this thing. I get it done. It's checked off the list and I move on.

But Eric, how big is that? There's got to be a huge thing. I don't know about you. For me, I've got a whole bunch of things that are someday maybe kind of things that are just I don't need to get to them right now. But at some point, it's going to be important or I'm going to come back to it. So my I mean, my actual to do to do list that I could do right now is.

reasonable size. My sum, my waiting follow up list on things I have to come back to that I can't do right now is a pretty significant list, but I can't touch it right now. So it's fine. And my someday maybe list is also pretty reasonable size. So like I, I don't know that, that it seems to me like you would have just a whole bunch of stuff on your calendar. That's not, that's a, that's a big maybe. You know, I think what's happening here is we're coming at this from two completely different paradigms. All right.

So, so, you know, my paradigm is a place for everything and everything in its place, including tasks. So I've become a master guessing how long something will take. So, for example, this, this whole idea where I'm going to update the referral partners on my CRM, that's going to take me half an hour. It's only half an hour. So I walk through life going, how long will this thing really take me? Is it really going to take me a whole lot of time? Or for example, distilling water for my CPAP, how long is that actually going to take?

It's going to take me three minutes to set up the distiller. It's no big deal. I can take care of it in any time and it gets done because often I build these things up in my head of, geez, I have to do this and then I have to do that and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. When I actually map it onto a calendar, it's like, this is only going take me 15 minutes. I can knock that out any time. And if it's a someday maybe thing, it just goes later in the month. It gets handled later on after the more urgent things get handled closer in. Got it. So but then.

Eric, you're going to be moving these things around all the time. Like if updating your CRM is something you need to do, but then another task comes in that is more important or more urgent than that, then you're going to have to move. You're like constantly moving things around. Do you have tasks that just go from day to day? You've punted them and then punted them again and punted them again because other stuff comes up. No, actually it, it, doesn't happen.

And the system has flexibility in it. So if something's gotta move, it moves. It's not like it's locked in stone. But if it's on the calendar, it gets done, and other things get moved in around it. And then if there is a time -sensitive thing or an important meeting, then I move the someday maybe thing. I just move it out of the way and make room. And so people will often come to me, and I use Calendly to set up meetings, because I'm an external, right?

So I give people my Calendly link and I usually send out my 25 minute link, something I learned from you. So I do the 25 minute link, I send it out. Folks say, hey, you're not available until May. Could we do something about that? And I'm like, yeah, sure. Let me move something out of the way and I'll make room for you. So there's flexibility as well. If I don't like the person, then no, I'm sorry. You gotta wait till May.

It's your it's like your own door guy. It's like, no, there's no time on my calendar. Sorry. Yeah. OK. So then what about hold on. So that's issue number one was that what happens if there's not a date for that item? And I have things in my world that don't necessarily have a date or a time that they have to be done. And so I'm able to constantly be reprioritizing. But it just happens all on the list and I don't have to move things around. So that's that's issue number one for me. But issue number two is it doesn't scale. And here's what I mean by that.

I used to put tasks on my to -do list and I've seen some people, you listening might be this person who puts a list of tasks at the top of your day. So you've got one day item that has all of the things you're trying to do that day or something. And I tried that for a little while too. And the problem was that doesn't scale. Meaning if I get more and more to -do lists, more things on my to -do list or that list gets pretty long, then it starts to cover up.

the rest of your calendar. And so there's actually this, it happened to me where I missed a morning meeting. I had like an eight 30 meeting with my boss's boss way back in the beginning of my career. And I missed that meeting because my to -do list was so long that it had covered up the eight 30 time slot on my calendar. And I totally missed that meeting and I got in trouble for it. And I realized, you know, I can't like this, this whole putting tasks on the calendar isn't going to work because the calendar needs to be where I need to be like meeting.

my boss. So I had to get those things off off of there. So I don't know. What do you think about that? Cause that the scaling thing is it doesn't scale. I, there's only us like what happens when the list gets too long. You know, I, I haven't had issues with it. You know, at this point in my career, I'm a CEO. I run my own business. actually run three businesses and the color coding system I've got for the different calendars and the ability to guess how long something's going to take.

you know, in rather than saying that a thing is going to take me two hours. It's like, no, that'll take me 15 minutes. It seems to work out. Okay. You know, I haven't had an issue, again, I think it might be a paradigm thing. It might be, you know, where, you know, what, what qualifies as a to -do item on your list may not qualify for mine. Right. That seems like a whole nother. Well, I'm to leave that alone because we can debate that too. But so here, and here was my third one that I wanted to ask you about Eric. This is lose track of things. So what happens is

There was one day, and this is this, I lost track of a few tasks and got in trouble at work for them. And what happened is I had them on my calendar for a certain date and then I was unexpectedly sick and I did not get on. It was like a Thursday and I ended up being unexpectedly sick on the Friday. And when I came in on Monday, the day started off immediately and I did not have the chance to go back and move.

the things from Friday that were left over onto Monday. So now my day's over. My day was overloaded. I missed those items and I ended up losing track of a couple of things that my supervisor was counting on me for. So I ended up missing those items because I didn't move them. And so for me, that was the third. That was sort of the nail in the coffin for me at OK, I'm going to become a to do list guy because if it's on the to do list, I never have to move it. It's there. It's always there. The only thing I have to do is know what order I need to do all these things.

and start at the top and work your way down. But what about losing track of things? I don't lose track of things because I'm constantly in my calendar. So, you know, constantly checking up to make sure that I haven't missed anything, that something hasn't gotten past me. And then at the end of the day, in the end of the week, I go through and look ahead in my calendar. And if I was out or something happened during the previous day, I'll look back and say, OK, that thing that I was supposed to do Thursday, I didn't get to it. So I'll move it over to Monday morning and I'll take care of it then. So it's just drag drop.

put it where it belongs and we're all back. So I very rarely drop things because my calendar is my Bible. And so I'm in it all the time. And sometimes during downtime with the family, we're sitting on the couch hanging out. I'm in my calendar, just double checking, making sure that I know what's happening for the week coming up. And that sets me at ease. So five or 10 minutes on the couch with the family, they're reading, I've been scrolling the New York Times or something. I take a few minutes.

check the calendar, make sure everything's up to date, and then I can put the phone down and hang out with my family and relax. Yeah. So I think I know that you and I could probably continue to debate this. So we shouldn't debate this for too long. We want to hear what you listening and watching or thinking about this. But what I can say is that I love we are on totally separate sides of the fence here because I think you it seems like everything goes in the calendar. And I do agree that if there is time on the calendar, if you set aside time, it will get done.

So I totally agree with you there. However, for me, calendar is where you need to be. Task is where you need to do, what you need to do. It's a totally separate thing. So this is just a fascinating discussion, because ultimately it's all about getting stuff done. But man, two very separate systems. Absolutely. And I will say, pounding on the table, I will say, you're wrong, you're wrong. I totally disagree, Eric. No, man, it doesn't scale. I have problems. I have problems with it, but.

Well, you're allowed. It's OK. You know, is this isn't here's the beauty. The beauty of the world in our country today is that you don't have to agree. Yeah, this is this is not an autocracy. This this this space is a democracy and you're allowed to dissent. It's OK. Right. So I would never vote for his system. He wouldn't vote for my system. And we still both get stuff done. So it's an amazing thing. Yes. Moving on. Item number two. Item number two.

Do you plan out every hour of the day or do you leave open space in the last discussion, Eric, you talked about it sounds like you have a lot of your day plan. You said it's flexible and there's still a little time, but like you said, the first time available is May and you're Cal and Lee Lake. like, okay, what's the, so I don't plan out every hour of every day and we're on different sides of the fence. So you go first. What's this about? So plan and being so planned, talked about that. Yeah. So.

I literally block out time for lunch and dinner so that people can't book meetings when I need to eat. I've got a stomach clock that goes off at noon and six. And if you haven't fed me by then, there's going to be a problem. So there is lunchtime, there is dinner time. And then otherwise I book time for everything. So meetings where I need to be, people I need to meet, and things I need to get done all wind up in the calendar.

And there is white space and there is time to get up and walk around and do things. But at the end of the day, here's when my method pays off. At the end of the day, my time is mine. So I block off dinner at 6 p so nobody blocks me when I want to be with my family. And then after 6 p like for example, there's a calendar item here to call my friend Dan. So that's personal stuff. So sometimes if I want to make sure I remember to call somebody or do something personally, it also winds up in the calendar, but that's my time.

So it gets done and there's plenty of time to just chill out with the fam and read or watch TV or go for a walk or whatever. So, Eric, you're looking at the let's let's put some perspective on this. You're looking at the screen right now. How much if you were to add up the amount of white space on your calendar right now for the day, what are we what for your awake hours? Basically, what are we talking about? How much is there for today? Yeah, today is today's Friday. Today, Fridays are no meeting days for me. OK.

so this is pretty light. Let's go to a let's go to like a Monday through Thursday, like a normal sort of work kind of day. What are we talking about? OK, look at something that's fairly typical. OK, so looking at looking at Monday, the 23rd, there's there's now and a half. There's a half hour. There's 15 minutes and then at three o 'clock, I'm going to work out. That's me time. Then I come back and there's room for work and then there's dinner and then there's nothing. So there's still plenty of time to do stuff.

and to be relaxed and unstructured. Got it. So most of the rest of the day is that you kind of know what you're doing next and next and next going for for most of the day. And there's a little bit of white space in there to flex. Yeah, it sounds like a couple hours, two to three hours of wiggle. Yeah. Now, here's the thing. If I was working in corporate.

this may not work so well. I used to do this in corporate as well and I used to get flack from my manager because I would block off time to work on projects. Like my boss would assign me a project and I would say, okay, that project is due in two weeks. I better block off two hours a day to get it done. I would block off the two hours a day. I would have my time set aside so I could get it done. And then my boss would say, I need you in a meeting at that time. So then my boss would sabotage my system. So that didn't work all the time.

in corporate, but remember I'm my own boss. My, my bosses now are my clients and I can accommodate and make room for client meetings. It's no problem. Yeah. See for me, I am on, I'm on the other end of the spectrum here, Eric, which is if I don't have, it's where I need to be. Right. So there are, there is lots of time during my day where there's nowhere I need to be. And

for and you're right, some days are busier than others. And I do have like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday are generally meeting days and there's a lot going on and it's back to back. And so there are days where from the morning through the evening, there's probably not a lot of white space because there's a lot of places I need to be. But for the most part, in my calendar, there is a lot of white space and the white space is still productive time. That's where our difference. I have mine on the to do list.

So if it's not a meeting time, then I am working on these things and here's where here's what I'm working on next. But if I am able to physically, if my presence needs to be there, then I can do those things. And so that's for me, that's where I, I believe that you, the calendar should only be where you need to be so that you can, you know, where your brain needs to be, where your presence needs to be.

And I think that there should be plenty of time where there's not anything on the calendar for that reason. So for me personally, I totally disagree, Eric. I think there should be lots of white space because that's when you get to function and you get to flow and you get to to be you and do your thing. So I don't know. That's I struggle with that one. I think we're on a different page here. Yeah, this is very much related to the to the first thing we talked about. So I don't think we're going to solve this.

But I would be interested to hear what our listeners think about this whole idea of to calendar or not to calendar. Yes. So please weigh in on the weigh in in the comments. Let us know what you think. Yes. Is Brian crazy or am I crazy? I really want to know because I feel like I think Eric's crazy. Eric thinks I'm crazy. So what do you think? That's fine. Let's see. Let's see what we got. Well, at least we've got the same haircut. There is that.

Your taste in barbers is on point, Eric. I like it. And if you're listening, we're both bald. So, you know, there's that we got that in common, right? We do have a lot of things in common, but on these topics that we disagree on, let's go to the third one, Eric, because the third one is early riser, early to the gym, early workout or late riser, later gym. Talk about that. Cause I think you're an early and I'm a late person. So what do you got? Okay. I'm a hybrid. So

I'm an early riser. So on a typical morning, I'm up at 530. I take my time in the morning. I make myself breakfast. I meditate, which we'll get to. And then I come in and I go and do outreach and networking and all the building, the business stuff. So that's the first thing that's blocked out of my calendar is two hours. Wait, wait, wait. What time did you say you start at 530? I'm up at 530 at my desk at seven. Okay, yeah. And before that means you did the

Work out in the meditation and stuff before too? No. So I get up and meditate according to the calendar, Brian, I meditate at 6 45. Yes. Breakdown. Yes. Yes. At 6 45 I meditate and then I come and get the outreach and the networking done. And then the rest of the day is tasks and what have you. And then because, because I'm up so early and because my, my energy naturally drops off in the afternoon at three o 'clock, I carve out

two hours to go to the gym and workout. And then recharged, I either come back and do something personal or I may duck back into the office for another hour and do a little bit more work. Yeah. All right. Come on, let's go. I was going to say for me, I am not an early person, meaning I like to get up later. So, so point of reference, I'm a group fitness instructor.

I teach an 8 a class. 8 a is the earliest that I want to be working out. And I wake up just in enough time to get to the gym to teach the 8 a class. That's my sort of my my way of doing it. And if it were up to me, my work schedule doesn't allow it right now. But I my sweet spot, I love the middle of the day.

I love a noon workout because then you got your morning, then you go to the gym, you work out, you got that exercise, you get totally breathless. You get like that, that wonderful feeling of I'm physically exhausted. It resets everything. You take a shower, you sit back down and then you work the afternoon and it's like restarting your day. So I love noon workouts. I tolerate 8 a workouts and I will not work out.

Before 8 a at 730 would be like the earliest that I would ever dream about doing a class or something like that. And I don't work out after work because then that interferes with my family time and my social time. And there's like that. That doesn't work. So I can't do after work. So I am a late late riser. But also one other point on that, Eric, is that I am some of my creativity and my life functions a little bit later. So in order to get up that early, you'd have to go to bed early because sleep is important. So whichever camp you're in.

You got to get your sleep, your seven hours, your eight hours. So you can't just be both. You have to pick one or the other in order to really get your sleep, too. And so for me, there's some social stuff and some evening stuff and some of my creativity happens later, just naturally. So I would rather stay up till 10, 11 and then get up at seven, six, 37 rather than the opposite. But I don't know what you think. No, no, no, no.

No, no, no, no, no, no. So I'm up at 530, six o 'clock. I do the whole breakfast thing. I'm at my desk at seven. The workout happens at three because I am brain brain dead by the afternoon. And so I go I go do something that doesn't require a lot of thought. That energizes me enough to do something else in the afternoon. And then I am also an early to bed person. So to me, a late night is nine thirty.

So I'm usually in bed at night. And so so again, you know, using the CPAP analogy, my CPAP usually tells me that I'm sleeping eight hours, nine hours a night. Right. So, yeah, I mean, I'm I'm 54. I'm middle aged. This is what happens to you folks. I'm sorry. This is it. I well, I'm in my 40s, so I'm not quite there yet. But at the same time, don't know, Eric, I feel like you got and you got kids.

Your kids do not go to are they are they doing that thing where they're like sitting on the couch and they're like, dad's going to bed and then they're still up doing their thing. They they stay up a little bit after us, but I hear them thumping around and goofing off and they're usually in bed by nine thirty. So it's not that they're going to bed really late. I have no idea if they're awake in their room, you know, reading or something. Yeah. But but they are out of the living room usually by nine thirty or so. Got it. And is it that way on the weekends, too?

for you guys. Yeah, pretty much. Because, you know, we're up and about doing stuff, but we usually sleep in on weekends unless I'm teaching scuba, in which case I'm up at five thirty again. Right. Yeah. Yeah. God see. Now, five thirty is ridiculous, Eric. No way. There is nothing about five thirty that I want any part of, seven, six thirty at the absolute earliest. Only if I have to get to an eight o 'clock class and there's like, man, no way. Well, then then you'll love this. You'll absolutely love this. My

best client, my biggest and best client likes to have me teach classes at 6 a because they're based in Iowa. So that's 8 a for the... 8 a their time. That's 8 a their time. And then they have a lot of folks who are East Coast or Europe. So 8 a is a good time. 8 a Central time is a good time for them to start. So I'm up at 4 30 to work. Ooh.

Well, that's painful that you're going at seven 30 on those nights. That's painful. That that means a coffee IV for me. Yeah. Do what you got to do for the clients, man. I like it, man. I respect it, Eric, but hell no. I will not go that early in the morning. like, no, not if I can help it. I will say if I had a client and it was a work thing that needed me up that early, you bet your keister that I would figure it out. But naturally, no way.

in my regular life. No way. I, you know, I do it because I really, I really, really like and respect this client. I'm happy to do it for them. If there wasn't so much what the, what the Chinese call Guangxi, if there wasn't so much good feelings between us, I might push back a little bit, but I'm happy to do it. Got it. There you go. Well then next, let's talk about the next one, which is we talked about meditating. So I'm not a big meditator. Let me take first on this one.

Meditation is not my thing. I tried it. Let me just say first off before I before I say that I'm not. I did try it. I took a 10 day meditation thing. What's that? Man, there was an app that came out that gives you like a 10 day intro or something. So I meditated for 10 day headspace. Exactly. I tried headspace. I did the 10 day meditation. I got every morning and I sat there and I meditated and by the sixth or seventh day,

What happened is I fell asleep meditating. And what meditating taught me is that, is that meditation is excellent for me going back to sleep. So I will tell you right now that at 4 a when I wake up and I can't go back to sleep because you use the bathroom or something and you go back to bed and you're trying to go to sleep and you can't go to sleep. I meditate and it works like a charm. I am out. It is like a superpower. If I meditate, I go to sleep and

That's not to say I understand the benefits of having nothing going on in your like quieting your mind. I think that's super important. But I, to me, my creativity and my flow is letting my brain just go with all of the thoughts that I'm having. And so I don't, I don't meditate during my conscious day when I'm during the regular times. don't.

I don't dig it. It's not for me. It's not my thing. And I know it's not for everybody. Maybe you listening aren't a meditator either, but I tried it. It's not my bag. Like it's, it's great for going to sleep. What do you got? I think you're missing out. I use headspace. I've been kind of in and out on and off with the whole meditation thing. And it took some experimenting. I actually was going to a live person where we were doing the single resume and she was walking me through this thing and she had tapes and CDs and things like that, that

You know, like the practice was like half an hour long. That was too much. But I've been, I've been experimenting with headspace and I found this one where it's just simply this very nice lady guiding you through taking 10 deep breaths, clearing your mind and taking 10 deep breaths in through your nose, out through your mouth. The whole thing takes five minutes. I've got my, the way my office is set up is I can dim all the lights and do all this cool stuff in here. And I've got a really nice rocking chair behind me.

So I come down to the office after breakfast, I'm ready to go. I dim the lights. I do the 10 breaths. Five minutes, I'm done. I'm centered. I'm ready to go to work. So for me, the trick is it can't be too long. So like a half hour practice is just too much. But I would be interested someday in like going to a meditation retreat and learning how the yogis do it. That's not on the list. It's not on my calendar. It's not on the list.

If it ain't on his calendar, it ain't getting done. heard it. It's not going to get done, but someday, someday, maybe, you know, and if it's important enough, it'll get on the calendar. But in the meantime, I find headspace to be useful. It's not very expensive. And there's so many options, so many options in terms of guides, know, male, female, young and old, very short meditations like just do five breaths, you know, it takes two and a half minutes all the way through to a week long thing you can do. So I like it. I dig it. It helps me sort of get

organized. And my big thing is you've probably heard my big thing these days is empathy, empathy and management. And one of the things that I teach in the empathy module is mindfulness and meditation. So I better practice what I preach. This is true, Eric. No way, man. It's not. Here's the here's the the thing that I now headspace. The one thing that I did, I think I discovered with headspace and you're a regular user. So you can correct me if I'm wrong here.

but I think I remember there were meditations you could do while you were washing the dishes or while you were doing chores around the house or something like that. Is that true? Am I misremembering that? don't know. There probably is. There's a lot to it I haven't seen. Okay. So the thing that I'll say is clearing your mind or letting your mind just roam and wonder. One of the things that was really helpful when I learned meditation,

was the concept of a thought coming in and then you letting it go and not and going back to center and where you were. And one of the things that happens for me is that some of my most creative thoughts you ever been in the shower and you have all these great ideas in the shower. yeah. Mine is just wandering. It's just doing its thing. That's almost like it's it's similar to meditation, but it's not in that meditating in meditation. You're trying to know thoughts, trying to quiet your mind.

Whereas for me, I like to let it roam, let it play, let it whatever. So the time, the only time I want it to quiet is 4 a when I'm trying to get back to sleep. that's now man, meditation is just a helpful sleep tool for me. I am not a meditator. I respect your decision, but I feel, I feel bad for you. I think you're missing out. I I will take your pity and I will give it right back to you for, these things. Fine.

Moving on, where are we at? All right. Last one. Amazon subscribe and save. my God. This is my love. Talk to me. What are your thoughts? Freaking hate it. my God. So what are you talking about? OK, you got me on this whole subscribe and save, right? Like you, I talked to you or I listen to one of your episodes and I'm like, subscribe and save. It'll save you a bunch of time. Cool. So I put the spa chemicals on subscribe and save the vitamins, some other household stuff I put on subscribe and save.

And pretty soon I wound up with this stuff stacked around the house. The timing was all off. I've got I've got cleaning products that are six months old that I haven't gotten to yet because the subscriber and saved timing was wrong. So I find that I'm intelligent enough to order my own stuff when I need it. And Amazon is fast enough to get it to me when it needs to be there. So when when the spa shock needs to needs to be refilled, I just order it when I need it.

It's very limited. It's not that I don't use it, but I don't use it for everything because my perception is that you are like a devotee of this stuff and like do it for everything. So let's hear your side. Eric, I want you to subscribe and save everything that you can. Everything that is practical. So let me qualify that statement by saying, Hey Brian? Yeah. No.

I'm telling you, if you're listening, I want you to try it. If you haven't tried it already, because I did not understand the magic of subscribing. So, by the way, let's explain for the if you're listening, you don't know what this is. Subscribe and Save is a program in Amazon where you can go on Amazon and you can subscribe to a product. And what that means is the product will you can put it on whatever interval you want and the product will show up at that interval. So perfect example of this would be vitamins. I take my vitamin one a day.

Every day, there are 120 pills in that bottle, which is exactly four months. So I know that about two or three weeks before the four month mark, I'm going to be ready for another one of those pillbox, another one of those containers of vitamins. So I have it on a subscription where it shows up every four months so that it's ready to go. And I never have to think about it. I don't have to reorder it. So the two reasons that I don't want you to listen to Eric and I want you to try subscribing, say is because

You don't have to think about it. And the amount of stuff that you have to think about all the time is astronomical. So if you can subscribe to things that are very regular, I don't subscribe to everything like I don't subscribe to toothpaste because I haven't been able to figure out that interval. I don't subscribe to deodorant because I don't know the interval. I don't subscribe to some of the food things. But let me tell you the things that I do subscribe to that have been a game changer. Every single one of the pet things. We have a cat and

every one of the pet products is on a subscription because it's used the same interval like clockwork. They eat the same amount of food, the same amount of waste, the same amount of litter, change the litter same. So it's to the point like that's one or another one would be batteries for your smoke detectors in your house. You know, well, I hope you know that you should change those every six months or a year or whatever the interval is for your for your smoke detectors.

So what I love about this is if you subscribe to it, then when the batteries show up, you don't even have to think about it. You don't have to remember that a year ago I changed it and it needs to be August. You don't put it on your calendar like Eric probably does. Absolutely. Are you kidding? That's absolutely on the calendar. No, I don't even want it to be a calendar thing. I want it to show up at my door and I'm like,

That's right. It's been a year already. Okay. Let me change these batteries and they're right there ready for you to change the batteries. So no, Eric, I think you should subscribe to the things that you can that are regular so that you don't have to think about it either. It just shows up when you need it. It is magic. And you get five to 15 % off. If you subscribe to as much as I do, you get 15 % off all this stuff. So you save money and you don't have to think about it. What's not to love? I'll tell you what's not to love clutter. I hate clutter.

I hate having too much stuff around the house. Every month, like clockwork, I take a trunkload of stuff to Goodwill, because we go through the house and clean up all the clutter and we give it away to somebody who needs it, okay? So, subscribe and save, all right? I did Mrs. Murphy's cleaning products, right? It was a three pack. I said, great, send that to me every three months. Guess how many Mrs. Murphy's bottles I have now? Like 12 hanging around the house, they're cluttering up my...

So what, you don't clean the house? What? Why aren't you using it? up. Hold on, hold on. Before now, let me just share for you. If you haven't done subscribe and save, the other thing you should know is that Amazon sends you an email a week and half ahead with an interval that says these are the subscriptions coming up. And if you want to change them, you can't. So I don't want you to think that if you subscribe that you are forced to take the product because you said you would a year ago or whatever it was.

No, it's in the app. You can easily adjust. I don't need it yet. So if something does start stacking up, like Eric says, you can easily punt it, skip it, change the interval and it notifies you ahead of time. So you're not like, I don't want you to think that you're forced, which is why I still think you should try it. have vitamins in my, in my downstairs bathroom on the shelf. have vitamins lined up. That's going to last us probably three months because subscribe and save.

keeps sending it. They won't stop. So I just I hate clutter. If it was me, we wouldn't go to Costco. mean, Costco is really important, you know, for things like toilet paper and paper towel and and dishwasher detergent and things like that. But it means that there's a shelf in my garage dedicated to the big box and all that stuff. And all this stuff is just hanging around because you have to buy it in bulk. You to buy it in quantity. I just wish there was a way to get.

just the roll of paper towel you need when you need it without having to buy 11 of its friends. Totally tracking with you on that. And I'll just say that if you want to subscribe to a smaller set of paper towels, you certainly could. And then you just would have to figure out the interval over time. So the other thing I'll say is, wait a minute, you don't have to think about it. You did. You said you don't have to think about it. And now you're telling me everything. If you notice that you're starting to build up a backstock of these things like you're talking about,

then you can look at, when was the last time I ordered? And you can actually figure out, okay, what my interval was wrong. So one example of thing that I did subscribe and save wrong was the cat food. And so the cat food came in and I got, was like a, I don't know, it was like a five pound bag or something. And I said, all right, let's order it. And then I ended up, I think it was like a month or something and the cat didn't eat five pounds. is example.

numbers, and then they discontinued that quantity. And so I had to change it to a 10 pound bag and I didn't change the the interval. So I ended up with three 10 pound bags of cat food. And by the way, I have a very, very small cat. So this that amount of food is like a long, long interval of food. So I got that one wrong. However, when when you get it, you adjust it. So there is a tweak that can happen.

If you need to over time, if you start ending up with 10 things of Mrs. Murphy's like Eric does, you either need to clean your house more. I'm just saying. Or you should change the interval, bump it out a little bit, because now you know you only need it every four months or five months or whatever that is. So. Basically, Brian, I think you've just made my point. Thank you. Fair enough. Well, listen, I I think.

that it is a game changer and you should totally try subscription stuff. If you're a cat person or a pet person, it's not just Amazon. Chewy has this now. Walmart has the ability to subscribe to things. So that beauty of subscription is you don't even have to think about it. It will just show up for you. And for me, that little amount of time that you save not having to think about it, pull out your phone and order your spa chemicals like Eric does. I think that's a win. So I think you should do it. But

At the same time, I do agree that it's not for everything because most of our food, none of our food is subscribe and save. It is for supplies, not food, because I haven't. The food thing is not a there's not a good interval for that. Yeah, I would eat way too much if food was unsubscribed and say if they put if they put &Ms unsubscribe and save. I was just going to say, right, if it was whatever your guilty pleasure is. And so it starts showing up every week. And I look at my wife.

Well, there's another one coming, so I better eat this one. And then I just keep eating all these bad things for you because it's Amazon's fault, right? Like, yeah, I'm good. I'm guiltless. I'm guiltless. that's all right. Well, I appreciate it for you listening, please. I want to know what you think because I am totally on a different page from Eric about this stuff. And so I'm curious where you land on this spectrum of things, because, man, I just strongly, strongly disagree.

with his approach. So and for the record, I just want to say that I feel like in our country today, if you strongly disagree, you have to be like enemies or something. And I just want to clarify that I strongly disagree with Eric and I still love this guy. Like, man, he's he's a he's a great dude. He gets all the stuff done. So like we're allowed to disagree. And that's cool, too. So you're allowed to disagree with us. So come disagree with us and tell us what you think. Yes. And in order to disagree.

on a subscribe and save basis, please subscribe to both of our shows. So you can do that in an Apple podcast. You can subscribe to the shows and that way you get the goodness from both of us. Brian, thank you so much. This has been hilarious and I hope that our listeners find it equally interesting and fun and thought provoking. Right back at you, Eric. Thanks for a spirited discussion and thanks for having different thoughts. Because I will say that having a different approach or different opinions only

helps me evolve in my thoughts or it's helpful when you have a thought and somebody pokes holes in it and you're able to go back and say, no, I think this even more now or it might change your mind and God, who would have thought? So I love that we don't have the same perspective on this and it only sets me in my ways even more on these things. So I appreciate you for that. Thanks, Eric. Yep. Thank you. And we'll see you all on the next one. Bye bye.

Beat Interruption Overload, Your Hidden Productivity Killer - With Joel MacCharles

Joel MacCharles joins Brian to discuss discuss managing your interruption overload and staying focused. They share their personal strategies for staying organized and productive, including using to-do lists, calendars, and focus music. They emphasize the need to prioritize tasks and eliminate unnecessary meetings and emails. Joel expresses his frustration with the amount of time wasted on interruptions and emphasizes the importance of making a change.

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The Audio/Podcast

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References In This Episode

• Brian’s tip to cut down your inbox - 2 Email Rules To Cut Your Inbox Down By More Than Half

• Brian’s tip on eliminating your newsfeed - app called #blockit - Addiction to Social Media: Fix It With Apps & Tech Hacks

• Brian’s focus music with the free playlists - Turbocharge Your Focus & Productivity Through Music

• Joel MacCharles on LinkedIn

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Episode Digest

In this episode, Brian Nelson-Palmer and Joel Mack Charles discuss conquering interruption overload and improving productivity. They share their personal experiences and practical tips for managing interruptions and regaining focus. They emphasize the importance of recognizing and minimizing interruptions, taking proactive measures to regain control, and using tools like focus mode and smart folders. They also discuss the limitations of traditional time management techniques in the face of modern interruptions.

In this conversation, Brian and Joel discuss the importance of managing interruptions and staying focused. They share their personal strategies for staying organized and productive, including using to-do lists, calendars, and focus music.

They emphasize the need to prioritize tasks and eliminate unnecessary meetings and emails. Joel expresses his frustration with the amount of time wasted on interruptions and emphasizes the importance of making a change.

Overall, the conversation provides valuable insights and strategies for overcoming interruption overload and improving productivity.

Takeaways

• Recognize the volume and impact of interruptions in your life

• Take proactive measures to minimize interruptions and regain control

• Use tools like focus mode and smart folders to manage interruptions

• Reconsider traditional time management techniques in the face of modern interruptions

• Create a curated and controlled environment for social media use Create a to-do list and prioritize tasks to stay organized and focused.

• Use calendars and time blocking to schedule tasks and eliminate interruptions.

• Consider using focus music to enhance concentration and productivity.

• Eliminate unnecessary meetings and emails to save time and increase productivity.

• Shift to purpose or outcome-based meetings to focus on decision-making and reduce wasted meeting time.

Sound Bites

"I have lived in the trenches of the nightmare of interruptions and lack of focus"

"I’m really angry…Interruption overload is a massive problem"

"I'm curious your thoughts on that…it’s a huge power move to work from a to-do list."

"When it's time to crank it out, I hit the focus mode on my computer so that there's no interruptions. And then I have the focus music playlist.”

Chapters

02:30 Understanding Interruption Overload

05:04 The Impact of Interruption Overload on Productivity

07:07 The Limitations of Traditional Time Management Techniques

10:43 Strategies for Managing Interruption Overload

13:36 Managing Social Media Distractions

21:29 Different Approaches to Managing Different Types Of Interruptions

25:18 Using Tools and Techniques to Manage Interruptions

28:01 The Power of a To-Do List in Managing Interruptions

38:36 Harnessing the Power of Focus Music

45:36 Outcome-Based Meetings for Better Decision-Making

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Today’s Guest

Joel MacCharles
Focus Architect

Joel MacCharles is a renowned TEDx speaker and four-time best-selling author recognized for his expertise in combating interruption overload. With a career that spans executive leadership across multiple continents, Joel has firsthand experience managing teams amidst the challenges of modern work environments. His journey from overseeing thousands of team members to becoming a 'Focus Architect' is fueled by a mission to help organizations reclaim their focus and productivity.

Joel's insights are grounded in practical solutions to common workplace challenges such as overwhelming inboxes, incessant meetings, and disruptive technologies.

As a speaker and consultant, Joel partners with organizations globally, offering strategic frameworks that empower teams to cut through the chaos of interruption overload and prioritize impactful work. His work resonates with leaders and professionals seeking innovative solutions to enhance focus, energy, and overall effectiveness in today's fast-paced business landscape.

joel@wellpreserved.ca

Linkedin.com/in/joelmaccharles/

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. Graduates wield time management & life balance superpowers, activate a laser-guided ability to focus & prioritize, and implement a sniper-precise approach to task & email management. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!

Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:04.928)

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer On this show, I share personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, we're talking about conquering your hidden productivity killer. It's the ways to beat interruption overload. And with me on the show today is Joel MacCharles, who's a focus architect. Now I haven't heard of a thing called a focus architect. So talk about that Joel. What's your role with this topic?

Joel (00:29.659)

I'm deeply passionate about helping people find time, energy and focus on the things that are most important to them. I won't talk a whole lot about that, but we are wasting anywhere from 10 to 50 % of our lives and I'd like to claim some of that back to do the really things that are important to us.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:46.978)

God, we overlap there, because I mean, I did a whole Ted talk on the value of your time. So like reclaiming that time. Yes, Joel, preach brother. Let's do it. I love it. That's that's great. Now, so there are people who talk about being focused architects or productivity people. So I always love to ask, too, what's what's one? What do you think makes you a little different from others who maybe do talk about stuff like we're talking about?

Joel (01:11.611)

think one of the focus areas that are one of the experience things that makes me different is a lot of people will speak from a base of theory and I think theory is really important and I have a lot of respect for theory but my background also is one of experience and and really dealing with the problem of interruptions. At the peak of my really interruption overload time of my life I was an executive at an organization. We had 4 ,500 people. I team members in four continents.

I was running training, was running marketing, was running communications and innovation, all of those teams across the globe. And my life was a constant interruption, three, 400 emails a day. It was running into generally every half hour, having three meetings, triple booked from nine to five, or generally it was often five in the morning till six or seven o 'clock at night. and I would get to my most important work along with my peers after everybody else was done their day. And so.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:08.92)

Meh.

Joel (02:09.399)

I have lived in the trenches of the nightmare of interruptions and lack of focus.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:15.128)

Gosh, well, I'm excited to talk with this about you. So let's jump into our topic today. So we're talking about interruption overload. help us talk about that. What is interruption overload and why is it such a problem for productivity?

Joel (02:30.875)

think three things are happening that we've never seen happen before. When I started in a professional office environment, was 1995. I was a secretary and my boss was a CEO of a $20 million company and my desk was in front of his door. You couldn't get to the CEO without coming through me. I would get in trouble if I let a sales call get through to the CEO. I downloaded all of the email for the entire company, which was 12 or 15 a day.

And then I printed them out and handed them out to people. I went from there to 29 years later to being severely interrupted throughout my day and demands on my time. I recognized that, but after 18 years, you kind of get numb to it. You don't really realize what's happening. And to be candid, my job of 18 years ended unexpectedly. And suddenly I had a lot of time on my hands and I spent almost a year looking back at what did I learn?

over 18 years, over 20 years, that I could really see what was happening. And when I reflected, it came back to these three things that weren't clear when I was in the middle of that battle. One is we do not recognize the amount of interruptions that we have. You we think of email as a single interruption. Meanwhile, if you get 300 emails, it's 300 requests for your attention in a day, right? We confuse text messages with how many people send us versus how many messages we get. I got six messages yesterday.

Well, actually you got 30, but it was from six different people, but our brain doesn't separate those things. So we don't recognize the interruptions. Number two, we're misplacing the blame of interruptions. I will ask groups of people that are so tired and fed up of email. I get too many emails they'll say, I'm frustrated by the amount of email that I receive and I've been there, but an email never sent an email. Like we're blaming a technology for the people behind it and not looking at

What can we actually do about that? Which brings us to the third piece of interruption overload, which is we have a perceived powerlessness. Brian, this is kind of embarrassing to admit, but it's something I have to talk about every week. I was the head of training. I was the head of innovation. I was the head of communication. And I didn't think there was anything I could do to reduce the amount of email coming to my inbox.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:47.732)

That's a feeling.

Joel (04:49.369)

Yeah, my whole executive team felt the same. so when we look at that is how do we regain the power? How do we look at the actual root causes of this? And part of that is recognizing the interruptions so that we can minimize them and gain some of our time and focus.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:04.938)

Well, think it's great that you're talking. I mean, I love that we're having this conversation because in my training with productivity gladiator, I teach people focus and prioritization and it is a huge part of it. And not only is it all of the stuff that's coming in, but it's also some of the habits that people have ingrained that they might not even realize. Like it's talking about all of that. It is a personal thing. If you're overwhelmed, the only person who can help you with overwhelmed is you.

Realistically, you can ask others for help, but I mean, a lot of this is learning what to do, how to do it, how does it work? So I guess I wanted to ask you, so how much you talk about this, you speak about this professionally, how much of a problem is it, do you see?

Joel (05:50.779)

So I think we've got a massive problem with this. Microsoft studies say that over 60 % of our email are currently unneeded. And we're spending anywhere from two to four hours per day in our email. If I could turn to any person who's a new manager, even a CEO, and say, hey, listen, you're spending 60 % of four hours a day on something that isn't needed, what would that mean to your life if you could gain that back?

And I think part of this problem, if we look at the measurements of it terms of scale, cybercrime in the US in 2023 was a $288 billion problem. And we talk a lot about cybercrime in business. In 2004, unneeded interruptions was measured as a $560 billion problem. And I would estimate that we have more interruptions than we've ever had today. And frankly, most of the training that even I did, I led.

is failing people. I love the Eisenhower matrix. think the Eisenhower matrix is a brilliant thing for those of you who may have run into it, urgent versus important. But it was invented in the 1940s. It was invented before a fax machine existed in a business. It was invented before we had email. It was invented before we were interrupted 1 ,000 times a day.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:07.284)

Interesting. You know, I, I totally disagree with you on the Eisenhower matrix only because I think that is, I will say that, well, what I'm trying to say is I think it's an excellent tool to help you be able to figure out where to start. And it's not the end all be all. And I add a lot to it. It's the Eisenhower matrix plus you can't, it's not just the Eisenhower matrix.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:36.588)

However, I do think that still to this day, it is a great tool at simplifying because when people get overwhelmed, if there's too much going on, to be able to look at a task and think, is it urgent and is it important and where am I starting? And to be able to kind of divide the mass of all the things coming at you into this, know, into a subdivide those into important and urgent. I think it's super helpful. I don't know, but say more on that. Is it just because it's

It's old and so there's more going on than there was in the 1920s, 30s or say more on that.

Joel (08:11.835)

Yeah, so there's two factors. When Stephen Covey popularized it in 1989, when you read the reading in Seven Habits about the Eisenhower Matrix, he says that they were entering the fourth generation of time management. Time management needs to change over time. And if we think about how much business has changed since 1989, I would think that, smokes, maybe he was onto something back then when he said that. Here's the problem. Imagine that in 1995, when I was a secretary, my boss had 30 things come his direction in a week.

He could put all of those in important interruption boxes. And in fact, I actually had four file folders that I put his emails in because I printed them physically. He didn't have a computer on his desk, right? So his inbox had his emails into urgent important. I sorted them physically. Now as an executive, can you imagine if I received 400 emails a day, including Saturday and Sunday, by the way, right? Because we're on a global team here. So I'm receiving 2 ,800 emails in a week. The truth is,

Joel (09:10.075)

There would be over 1500 emails that I wouldn't even get to read to know what was urgent and important. The volume of incoming tasks is so much bigger. It's like we use this source of urgent and important to serve, to, to service us when we had 30 or 40 tasks in a week, when we have thousands and thousands of interruptions coming in any given week, we need to do something more proactive before we can use the Eisenhower matrix. So the Eisenhower matrix,

I think can be effective, but it's not effective like it was in the past on its own because the torrent of information coming at us. I now have voicemail, SMS, text messages, WhatsApp, and not only do I have it from colleagues, my clients have my cell phone number, my friends can text me in the middle of the day, my friends can, my family can text me in the middle of the day, nevermind my social media inbox. All of these things didn't exist before.

And if we spent, if we really use the Eisenhower matrix as it was written, the only thing we'd be doing is stacking things up into those boxes because we didn't have time for anything else.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:18.06)

Yeah. What do you do? How do you unload all that stuff? Well, that's, I love that we're having this conversation because this is like the entire focus of one of my productivity gladiator trainings is on this exact topic and what, what do you do? And so for this episode, let's, let's, let's circle back and focus then specifically on interruption overload. So what do you do with interruption overload? So Joel, what I'd love to do is just kind of

Go back and forth. I've got some ideas that I've shared with people. I'm into hacks and stuff. So I want to share a couple of those that I have on focus and interruption overload. But what about you? You want to kick us off? What's one that you, when you're talking about this, what's one that you give for how, what are the ways to beat interruption overload?

Joel (11:00.613)

So let me go broad and then I'll get specific and I'll get specific after you give one. But broad and the kind of mindset I use is I think about an air traffic controller. So an air traffic controller doesn't wait for the planes to crash to figure out which ones are important, doesn't even wait to see which ones are coming close to each other, is hopefully handling them more proactively further up the chain. So when I think about interruption overload, I think about three volumes of interruptions.

And we often think about the big one, the macro interruption, the loud interruption, the client yelling, the team members saying, hey, I need a minute. Those are things that you have to pay attention to. And we're programmed to pay attention to fire alarms and big interruptions. What we often miss is we miss the mid -level interruptions, things that pop up on our screen that we have to press okay to, or an alarm clock that we have to stop before we can continue our day. That's called a meso interruption, a mid -level interruption.

and a micro -interruption, which we don't even recognize anymore, a blip on your watch, a blip saying you just walked 10 ,000 steps, or, boy, my mother just text messaged me, I don't know what the message is, but I'm sitting there going, is everything okay? And it's sitting there haunting on me at that volume. So when I speak to people about interruption overload, what I find is what we try to solve for is the big ones. But the real secret to mastering focus, the real secret to getting to the Eisenhower Matrix.

Joel (12:25.467)

is coming up with solutions proactively to eliminate the ones that happen the most often, the Pareto principle. What's the thing that interrupts you 200 times a day that you're not paying attention to? to? Are you getting 50 newsletters that you don't read and that's just filling your inbox?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:40.302)

True story, gosh. And being able to flag those interruptions and or avoid them for even a period of time, because you can't put them off forever, but being able to quiet those while you can do the important stuff in your life, God, that's such a win. that, know, that one of the things that I wanted to share was it's such a simple thing that people don't use. And that's Every one of our computers and every one of our phones has a focus mode.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:09.922)

And so the question I want to ask, I want you to ask yourself right now, is, do you have a system? when do you use the focus mode on your device? Because it's not as much as you would think. Everyone would use it all the time for the important times in their life. But for most people, the only time that it comes on is at night because the iPhone is set to do it automatically or the Android does it automatically during your sleep hours.

That's probably the only time that many people use it. So it's this amazing tool that shuts off the noise and the interruptions. So you can do the important things and whether those important things to your point, Joel, for me, it's about life and life balance. It's not just about work. So I use it at work consistently if I'm trying to be productive and get stuff done. Cause the reality is our job descriptions don't say respond to email.

Our job descriptions are to do important work, to help, to train, to sales, whatever it is, management stuff. And so if you're using focus mode and you're focused there, you're doing good work there. And also, if you don't already do this during date night or when you're at dinner with your family, please put focus mode on because don't be that guy who's checking your phone or that girl who's checking your phone in the middle of this amazing

you know, memory that you'll have forever with this time with your family or your friends or whatever it is. So that's just man. Focus mode. Please use focus mode intentionally more than just when the phone does it on its own.

Joel (14:44.219)

And I'd riff on that too and say when you're talking to your teams or you're talking to the people you're working with, change the automatic queue that says everybody put their phone on silent. Because that's the one that we share with everybody. But actually putting your phone on silent is more likely to create an interruption. Geez, it just beeped in my pocket. What's it saying? I got to know what's it saying. We've all checked our phone and found out that it wasn't even vibrating, but we thought it was. Right? I love that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:08.706)

Yep, absolutely. man. Yep, me too. All right, Joel, what else you got?

Joel (15:16.549)

So one of the hacks that I think, the irony of what I'm, part of my message is, is I actually want you to be more available to be interrupted. Interruptions aren't bad, but I want you to be interrupted by good things, by important things, by things that you value, by your purpose, not by just something else. So one of the things that we talked about earlier was newsletters. So I'm talking about one of the easiest ways to clean up your newsletter list on your inbox to the ones that you don't subscribe to.

If you open up your inbox and you search the word unsubscribe, you will get a list mostly just of all the newsletters you subscribe to. Then you can take the next half hour and just hit unsubscribe, unsubscribe. I like that one. I'm going to keep that one. Now I have time to read it because I'm not getting interrupted by 50 other emails. The important plane is coming to the airport and I got rid of the 49 others that are robbing my time to not read that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:09.346)

Yes, man Joel, I want a yes and you on this one big time because this is one of my, I did an article about the two Outlook for those, for you listening, if you use Microsoft Outlook, Outlook has, Gmail's pretty good about filtering things to promotions and things, but Outlook has been terrible and continues to be pretty terrible for me. And one of the things you can do in Outlook is set a rule.

that is basically for anything that says that has the keyword unsubscribe in it, just like you said, send it to a different folder, have it skip your inbox completely and send it to a folder. call mine the news and FYI folder because if it's got unsubscribed in it, chances are it doesn't really need my attention right now. And it's like you said, it might not be, it might be a newsletter that I really do want to read or a subscription that I was intentional about. So I can either unsubscribe from those or

I can get to them when I'm ready to get to them, not just because it hit my inbox right then. So that's your unsubscribe keyword. Man, that's clutch. Not only unsubscribe, but man, you can set up rules and filters to automatically handle those emails. And I, cut my inbox down by 60 % just with those two rules that I shared because man, that was a game changer in the work environment. So I'll share the link to that, that blog post that I did specifically for you listening, if that's interesting to you, but man,

I love what you're saying about unsubscribe for sure.

Joel (17:35.963)

Awesome. Let me give a variation of that because in my old work that would have been very dangerous. And here's why. My CEO as an example would forward me newsletters all the time. So if I automatically move something into another folder, generally you stop looking at that folder and it stays out of your view. So what I'm a huge proponent of is keeping one big giant mess in your inbox, which I know sounds scary to many people, right? I've got 30 ,000 emails in my inbox.

Joel (18:05.583)

But using smart folders and you can do this in Outlook really effectively. Basically you set up a search criteria and it looks like a file folder, but when you click on it, it gives you a filtered view. So I could give a filtered view of just my unsubscribes, but the next step and the step that I use a lot with people is actually what I call an interruption inbox. So here's how that works. What I recommend that you do is start to think about who in your life is allowed to interrupt you by email.

Joel (18:35.035)

a weird statement. But my girlfriend, Dana, we've been together for 20 years. We have an agreement that she cannot interrupt me by email. She can send me email, but it's never urgent. If it's urgent, she will call me. My parents, if it's urgent, they will call me. So if an email comes in from Dana, it's not urgent. I just know instantly it's not.

What I then do is I then talk to people in my life. I talk to my team. Team, can't interrupt me by email. If you need me, I will make myself available, but you need to call or you need to text message me, whatever it is within there. But there are certain people in your life, maybe it's your boss who says, I'm going to interrupt you any way I want. And that might include email. So then you're like, okay, now I've got to be able to check my inbox. So what I actually do is create an interruption view where I add those people to a search criteria, a lookup folder that says,

Hey, show me emails only from the following five people. It would be my CEO, the president of the company. Maybe it's a key, a couple of key clients. Then when I sit at my desk and I've just got a couple of minutes between meetings, instead of checking my entire inbox of the 50 messages that came in, I click that view. And if there's nothing there, I keep moving. If there's one or two messages, I can do a quick scan without falling into the black hole of the 50 other messages that are there.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:50.414)

Yeah. man, Joel, this is fun. Cause I want to yes. And you again on that, because why I want to go right back and say, actually, I disagree with the mass inbox thing. I'm one of those inbox to zero guys. And I hovered around 600 ish messages a day. So I feel you on the tons of email, but I'm at zero on the primary inbox. What I do is leverage the other things. And one of the things you can do with the outlook rule that I was talking about is you can have it set up. So there are exceptions to it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:19.882)

So it will implement except and the people that are in my exception are exactly the people you just listed. If it's my boss or my boss's boss or my boss's boss, any of the three, you know, anybody above there, those come right into my inbox. They don't. So it would never get flagged as an unsubscribe if it's from them. And so you can leverage those exceptions so that it still comes to your inbox. But for me, it's funny, you you take this role. It's we're like accomplishing the same thing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:49.558)

in two totally different ways. Because for me, if it comes into my inbox, that means it went past all of my rules and filters that keep it out if it's not important. so I had like those two filters that I talked about. like totally, we're driving at the same thing and it's just funny how you implement it with the special folder and I implement it with a bunch of basic like defense tactics that keep it out. And if it's in my inbox, that means it.

It is to me and it is something that would require my attention. I'm fascinated by this. can we can nerd out on this some more. I want to share more, but that man that's a ooh fascinating. I like this. Joel, let me.

Joel (21:29.199)

Yeah, and I think for you listening, think, don't go ahead.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:32.844)

Well, was just I was gonna go on, go ahead and finish your thought because then I was going go on to the next the next thought I had in line.

Joel (21:38.291)

I was just going to say, think that, yeah, I love that we're jamming back and forth and that we don't always have the same execution, but we have the same approach, which is there is a proactive way to handle it. what we're, think, you I'm not the world, you're not the world, but it's important that as a listener, I would think about what can I do that works for me? Because you don't have to do things the way I do. I feel sorry for you at that point.

But I think it's important that you find what works for you and what is the proactive solution that works for you rather than being reactive. And you talked about inbox zero. One of the things I love to share about inbox zero is the amount of, if you look at Merlin Mann, who came up with that in 2001, you look at his original speech and even what he's done in the last three or four years, he has tried to really show people he never meant to have an empty inbox. He never ever meant inbox zero to mean don't have it or have an empty inbox. He meant.

Don't spend it as a task list. Don't use it as a task list.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:38.914)

Yes, and that is definitely true. And when I teach it, it's not inbox zero like all the time. You should be able to get to it once a day. Inbox zero should be within your grasp if it makes sense, but don't waste your time. Like we're talking about, don't waste your time obsessing about email. Email is just the tool, it's the communication channel. It is not the end all be all. So, ooh, interesting. Well, I wanna take this.

approach with the distractions. We were talking about distractions and email. One of the other ones that I have is social media is a big one. It is a big one for a lot of people. And so what two of the things that come with don't get interrupted by social media. Here are my two tactics that I absolutely love and endorse and hope that you'll do. The first one is if you listening, if you haven't already done this, please turn off all notifications.

for your social media. So no red numbers, no pop -ups on your home screen, no, there is no interruption from social media, because nothing that happens on social media should be important enough to interrupt the amazing things that are happening in your life. Now I'm not saying don't check them, but what I want you to do is when you're ready to check them, if you're ready to go on Instagram or if you're ready to go on Snapchat, then go check it out and then see all those cool things that have come in, but don't.

interrupt to check those. Even if you have a split second between meetings, it's not Instagram. It's not that. So first one is turn off the notifications. But the second one is an app that I found that changed my life. And my gosh, I'm going to have to look it up because it's I'm blanking on it. I should have written it down, but there is an app. I'm going to give it to you in the link. So check the notes. This is the first time that there's ever been a reason.

to check the notes for an episode. But in this, there is an app and what this app does is on my phone, I use the Safari browser. I have an iPhone and I use the Safari browser to check my social media. And what this app does is it eliminates the newsfeed from any of the displays of social media, but it still shows you the notifications. So I treat social media like it's...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:51.822)

an email account almost where I check the messages. So if there are red numbers, if there are notifications, I check them out. They can hit the button. You can absolutely access all that. And I did a write up about this. Actually, I got the link to the app. So I'll share that with you in the notes. You'll see it because it's the tech hacks that you can use to get around social media distractions. So I'll share that with you too, but that's ultimately the bottom line is because I don't have a newsfeed.

I only go on there and check the notifications and any, you know, red numbers or whatever. I check those that come in and then at the end there's nothing else to look at. So I close it without ever getting sucked in. And man, that has saved so many hours. So I just, I'm a huge fan of it just because it's, it saved me from that black hole that social media can be sometimes.

Joel (25:42.137)

Yeah, I lived in an environment where social media, had to check and I had to check it for two reasons. The first one was I ran a social media team. So that was number one. But the second one that was maybe a bit more surprising is that in certain parts of the world where cell phones cost still to use by minute and are expensive, families will share a cell phone and they will use different access to Facebook and send messages over wifi for free. actual official

business ends up sending messages by Facebook. And one of the things that I would ask people to think when they go onto social media is, what are you getting from this? And if you're getting angry a lot or you're getting upset a lot, then consider what you're getting from that. And maybe you want to take Facebook off your phone, but like I did, I left messenger on so I could still get messages that were important, but it didn't mean I needed to have access to the entire app. In the case of something like Twitter, which

Joel (26:41.731)

I'm not on anymore, but was on I had to check that inbox and again I would go on the main page and fall into it We moved on to Hootsuite so that we could just see the inbox from those things So even though my job required me to go on to social I could still protect my amygdala my adrenaline from that that rage baiting for lack

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:02.804)

Absolutely. That's a man. What you're saying is so true with the Hootsuite or Buffer or the they let you schedule and monitor all of them at once. That's also a great way of social media is your job. You certainly want to check notifications because that's something you're monitoring and you certainly want to check and you want to be posting. But you're able if you use Hootsuite and like the the newsfeed eliminator like I talk about, then.

that's a way for you to not get sucked in too. So I love that what you're talking about is so true in that it's controlling your interaction with social media because if you leave the default setting when you first get on and use social media, they want to interrupt you all the time. And it really is up to you as long as you get in there when you want to get in there. That's the power. And whether that's two times a day or four times a day or one time a day, I love that you have power over that. So.

That's one.

Joel (28:01.871)

Yeah, my I no longer have a dog I had a dog and loved my dog my dog has an Instagram account still has an Instagram account and that Instagram account for my dog is a it's the junk food it is the chips of the internet for me and So one of the things that I do is if I do need to check Instagram for some reason during the day I'm not checking that account

Because when I want to be able to focus, I want to make sure that my feed is curated to me. There's no reason why I can't have a daytime account and a rest of the time account. And I don't check my rest of the time account during the daytime.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:37.41)

Gosh, yep. I love all these different approaches and I love that the ultimate goal is yes, get, don't get distracted by social media unless you want to be and it's up to you and you and it's not a never ending thing. Be able to climb out of it if you get sucked into it as well. You know, I want to, I'm curious your thoughts on this. I believe that you should absolutely work from a to -do list. And the reason I believe that I used to think

that you could use your email as a to -do list or like you mentioned, I mean, there's been different tactics, but over time as things have evolved and there's more and more communication channels, I believe now more than ever that a to -do list is a great ticket to not get interrupted. And the reason is because if you're in a to -do list and then you're focused on the task that you're doing on the to -do list, it allows you to focus on that task and complete that task and then move on to the next task.

and actually move forward with the important things that are on your to -do list. And so I'm curious your thoughts on that because for me, that's been a power move, a huge power move to, work from a to -do list. And if things come in, you know, there's so many different channels, right? Like I get emails with tasks, I get teams and Slack messages with tasks, I get text messages from tasks. And I mean, this is both personal and professional too, right? My wife has things that, Brian, can you,

check this for me or can you, we need to change the reservation, something on this or, and so anything that anytime that it comes in, I have a to -do list for personal and a to -do list for work. And when it goes on there, it absolutely gets done with 100 % accountability and certainty. I will get it done. And I'll also get it done in the appropriate order because I'm able to work it in the right order. So for me, it's been a power move. What do you think about that?

Joel (30:31.909)

So I'm going to do a yes, I am. I am a big believer in a to -do list with a caveat. When we were in our busiest of days, my to -do list was six pages long.

Joel (30:46.427)

double -sided, 12 pages of 40 items on it, 480 things that I had to get to at some point. And I tried all sorts of things, highlight the important thing, recreate another mini list with an important thing. What I would say is this, I now live with a paper day timer that limits me to about 25 thing in a week. things in a week. That's what I can get done in addition to other things. It's about 25 things. So my to -do list stays at 25. Anything that is not getting done this week.

does not go on my to -do list. It goes in my calendar in a time block. In some cases, this may sound ridiculous, but again, when I had six pages double -sided of to -do lists, I would write back to somebody and say, hey, listen, I understand what you're looking for. I can help you with that. I want to help you with that, but it's not going to be till next quarter. And I would put it in my calendar for next quarter. I would have an hour on my calendar. I didn't have to look at that again, think about that. The worst thing they can do is come back and say, no, I need it sooner. Okay, well then I've got to...

Maybe it goes on my paper list or I move it. But keep your to -do about the things that you need to do and the things that you can put onto your calendar that can be done later. Put it there so you don't have to think about it and it will come up when you need to.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:58.318)

You know, it's interesting as you put it on your calendar. And for me, I have my to do list separated and there are three to do lists. There's the to do, which is what I can do right now. There's the waiting follow up list, which are things that I need to do, but I can't actually do them right now. Perfect example of that would be they give you a credit and they say, all right, this credit should appear on your account in seven to 10 business days. Let us know if it doesn't. Well, now it's on me.

to do that in seven to 10 days. How do I remember to do that? And so I have a waiting follow -up list that has deadlines for what are the things. And so seven to 10 days later, that will roll right back into my to -do list. So I've got to -do now, I've got waiting follow -up, and then I've got the someday maybe list. And someday maybe means I might get to it. I would like to get to it, maybe someday. But like you said, it's not important. There are not consequences if I don't do it.

And so I'm focusing on what I can do right now. And so it's interesting that you use, sounds like you use the calendar for that. And for me, it's still the to -do list, just the three different lists. And it depends on where it goes.

Joel (33:10.211)

So I have a version of your someday maybe list and what I do with that is I have a standing meeting in my calendar at the last week of every quarter and and I have one hour just me and I look at that someday maybe list and I say in the next 90 days which of the someday maybes am I gonna put on my calendar to attack and Whatever I don't stays on the someday maybe out of sight out of mind unless I need to add something else there

Joel (33:37.435)

because what was happening to me was psychologically, I had a list of 400 things I had to do. I was getting in another 300 emails, and then there was this someday maybe list that was gonna be a never if I didn't ever look at it again, and I just kept adding things and feeling bad about it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (33:52.694)

Yep. God, so true. Yeah. Checking the someday maybe list is something you do have to do regularly at some interval that's right for you. For me, I check it once a week just to see is anything on there worth pulling off? know, oftentimes nothing moves because someday maybe continues to be someday maybe, but sometimes it comes back around. So it's just, I love that we kind of, we, it's the same approach with it's the same end goal and end result.

with two very different executions, which that's interesting. You know, I've got a.

Joel (34:23.759)

Yeah, absolutely. And my teams to that point, my teams all had their own systems. Sometimes they used mine, sometimes they used pieces of it. It's what works for me. I mean, you don't wear my jeans. You probably don't manage your time the same way as I do.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:39.264)

Exactly. I look at them all like tools, right? All of these are tools and like productivity gladiator. I teach people an awesome set of tools and skills and I know they work. They've been battle tested by me and hundreds of other people and I know that they work. However, just like you said, they are not the only one. So I love to describe productivity gladiator as a basic tool set and you need to know how to use this basic tool set. However,

If I teach you how to use a hammer and then for whatever your particular tool, particular task is, you find out that a big rubber mallet is gonna be better, then go get your big rubber mallet. But having a hammer and knowing how to use a hammer for the situations where a hammer is helpful is one of those superpowers that I feel like in school and in college or in high school or for me, they never taught.

the basic set of tools. I think the only thing I ever got was the planner in elementary school. They give you a little planner with like the, you you got a calendar and maybe, you know, a to -do list that's the place for to -do list. That's only like seven lines long. And then you're supposed to track everything. And then they never really teach you anything beyond that little planner. And so this is what happens when you have to scale it up and you have, you know, multiple businesses that you're running and a personal life and all the stuff like

What is it like you said? What does it look like when your to -do list is 120 things long, 20 things long? Well, I got a tool for that. It's called the common chaos process. And like we, yes, here's how it works, but you should know how to use it. That doesn't mean it's always. So I love that point that like, yes, there's different ways to do this. As long as you have a tool and you can describe the tool and you know how the tool works and it works for you. Awesome. I support.

Joel (36:31.739)

And the resilience to change that tool because something I've seen unique and I think as a manager and as somebody who might be new to people management, what you might be seeing is your manager struggling with time management. And we're seeing that today. What you might not have visibility to is that there are people who are at the level, that senior level management who for the first time in 25 years are struggling with time management.

And I think we just think they were always struggling with that. And I think the resilience and capability to adapt to new tools is so essential. And you have none of that built in if you don't know a group of tools.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:10.774)

Right. Adapting to new tools is really helpful if you knew how to use the old tool. that's, you gotta know how to use the hammer before the rubber mallet makes way more sense to you, right? Totally. Yes. Like all these softwares, every one of these softwares that comes out ultimately only makes sense if you knew how to use the other one that it was designed to be better than. You know, like that, then it makes way more sense. man.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (37:38.594)

You know, I've got a I've got a nerd one for you, Joel, that I'm curious if you've ever looked into one of my superpowers with focus when it's really time to focus like when I am behind the eight ball, something's coming down and either I got to get this stuff done or I'm staying late tonight because it can't wait anymore. It's got to be now. My superpower is I use focus music. There's actually I don't know if you heard about this, but there's a special kind of music and I discovered it some years ago.

Joel (37:41.294)

Okay.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:07.222)

And man, when it's time to crank it out, I hit the focus mode on my computer so that there's no interruptions. And then I have the playlist and I've got a blog post that does a write up about this to give you and I'll, it also has the reason I'm sharing it is because it will also give you links to free versions of this playlist. So you can check it out yourself if you've never actually tried focus music, but the methodology behind it is just that if you, if the mute, you have a tendency to get distracted.

roughly every two to four minutes maybe. So if you're doing the same thing and you're trying to focus, you constantly get distracted. Like you've noticed it because you probably noticed that you'll check your phone or you'll work for a little bit. And then after a few minutes, you'll want to look around or see what's going on or something will happen. And so one of the, what focus music does is at that appropriate interval of time where you would start to get distracted, the music changes. And so

That little change allows you to just continuously that satisfies your brain's desire for a little something different because the music changed. It's exactly the same, but then it changes. So anyway, that's one of my superpowers is focused music, man. Like I, I'll tell my wife, she even knows about this. I'm like, babe, I'm in a focused music mode right now. Like I, gotta, I'm going to zone in and that I can, found that I can work for an hour, two hours only getting up.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:31.714)

to go to the bathroom and then get right back in and like superpower. So if you ever mess with that, or have you heard about this?

Joel (39:37.657)

Yeah, so focus flow music is what I use a lot around that type of thing. And I think there's two things that are interesting from my perspective. One is when I first started using it, that's what happened. But eventually I started using it and I just, you know, I wasn't really thinking about it. But once in a while that music would accidentally come on my playlist, like in the rest of my life. And I would actually get kind of like that Pavlov's dog. I'd want to sit down and work.

Joel (40:03.235)

And so that's how powerful that is, right? It's like, holy smokes, I'm ready to focus. Like, it's so funny how it sneaks into your life. That's how geeky I am. But the second thing I would add to it is this, is you can't focus if you don't sleep. And I, for a long time, would be like sitting there with this massive to -do list, weighing on my shoulders and my head and my mind racing. So I actually go to sleep most nights. It's sleep music, but it's a riff on that focus.

Joel (40:32.172)

It's not the same music or I'd want to work, but it will guide me into sleep That will help me keep my brain empty. So I'm not letting my work Ruin my night's sleep because that's not worth it

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:45.292)

Ooh, Joel, I want you to, I'm going to send me the link to that so I can share it with you listening so you can check that out too, because I know sleep is a, is a topic that a lot of people face too. And I've, my gosh, I nerd out on some sleep stuff too. So I'm, I'm interested in it selfishly. Like I'm going to plug that in tonight and see how that goes.

Joel (41:02.509)

I do some guided meditation listening to it to sleep. And then some of the other stuff is just music I really like that doesn't have music in it. Or sorry, it doesn't have words in it. So it's post -rock or it's these types of genres that appeal to me that they tickle my brain, but they don't activate my brain.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:20.204)

Yeah, nice. Well, we've talked about this for a little bit, and I know you and I could probably keep going, but I want to shift gears and ask you. So what is it about this? mean, you hinted at it in the beginning, I think. But talk about what does this mean for you personally? Why? Why are you so passionate about this?

Joel (41:38.587)

I'm angry. I'm really angry. We are wasting anywhere from 30 to 60 % of people's lives on email and bad meetings alone. And not important email, but 60 % of the email we receive, we don't need to receive. And if we're spending three hours a day in email, you're losing 60 % of that three hours, an hour and a half that you will never get back your life. That's one day a week and that's 52 days in a year. We are wasting each other's lives.

and that time could be used to be transformative at work, to spend and invest in the people that we love and fuel us and fill us with passion and meaning. And we could change the world just by doing a little less with zero sacrifice. And companies talk about, want my team to be engaged and I want to excite them. And we're serious about productivity, yet we are willing to waste.

30 or 40 % of payroll, which is the largest cost component in most organizations. And we say that we're serious about this. We're not serious about productivity today. We're serious about being busy.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:48.556)

Man, you know, Joel, I'm, I'm, I'm laughing internally only because like I'm speaking at the upcoming shurm HR Florida conference and the session is on, the title of my session is this meeting could have been an email and it's all about the, do you do meetings better? What's the alternative to a meeting? How do we not have a meeting for exactly the same purpose? And what I love about that is the idea for that session.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:17.24)

came from a client that I was working with who said, I allow people to get electives to go along with their productivity gladiator training and the business can ask for some kind of custom one or so what's a topic that's important to you. Let's get some experts in here or let's do this. And the client asked, Brian, we do a lot of meetings. Can you do a session on meetings and how do we do this better? How do we do that? And so I have.

I developed that session and then tried it out and it's gone really well. And so I just love that you, I am absolutely with you on the angry thing because man, there is nothing more frustrating than looking at your work calendar for the day and knowing that you've got your list of all the things you need to do and you look at your day and it's back to back to back, nothing but meetings. And you can probably look at those meetings and tell.

that one's not really necessary. I'm not gonna contribute to that one much at all. Why am I in that one? And that can just be really frustrating or really feel really defeated when that, when you look at that and see, gosh, I have all this to do that they're counting on me to do. And I gotta sit in these meetings at the same time. Man.

Joel (44:28.891)

So I can give one hack for that that can transform those. And just to kind of put a nail in the coffin on interrupting people's times, a quick stat. SME Horizon did a study and revealed that 26 % of people, one in four, are thinking about leaving their current job because of the amount of emails and instant messages they get.

Joel (44:52.953)

That's mind blowing. And again, we say we want to engage our team members. One out of four are thinking of quitting because we're messaging them too much useless information that's costing us time and money. It's bonkers. My hack for meetings is the following.

Joel (45:09.239)

If you change meetings, we always have the same tips. You've got to have an agenda. You've got to communicate in advance. All those things are good, but meetings aren't getting better. So what gives, right? Like we can keep saying the same message, just not changing. What I would recommend you do to change a meeting is have an outcome -based meeting as opposed to an agenda -based meeting. What that means is at the very start of the meeting, have a roundtable discussion on what decision are we here to make today?

Joel (45:36.443)

If you come up with what decision it is, then you can ask, does everybody still need to be here? No, you don't need to be here, you're not part of this, you can leave. Or are we missing anybody? Because how many times do we get an hour into a meeting and then find out we didn't have the right people and have to repeat the whole thing? So if we focus on why are we here, start with the why, not the what. And if we can determine a why, then that meeting has a focus and an outcome.

that we can then determine if we've got the right resources.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:08.182)

I love that you said a purpose based meeting outcome based outcome based meeting as opposed to an agenda based meeting. I love that.

Joel (46:11.033)

Yeah, purpose -based or outcome -based?

Joel (46:16.731)

Yeah, and I even drive my own calendar that way. When I'm working for myself for an hour, I have an hour to focus on something. Don't focus on I have an hour to prospect. What's the outcome you're trying to focus? I want to talk to two people in the next hour. If I do that in 10 minutes, I can move to my next task. I don't have to spend an hour. Or I feel really good that I succeeded in first 10 minutes and I make four more contacts and I feel really successful versus, I just prospected for an

Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:43.903)

So true. I love that outcome based. That's powerful. Well on this topic, are there any other resources that you recommend on this topic?

Joel (46:52.613)

So I want to give one more tip that especially applies to managers that I think is so important. Because I think interruptions really only come from three categories. They come from people, process, and technology. And when you're a people manager, you have control over some of that. So Here's how I changed the cadence of my team to eliminate hundreds of interruptions a week for myself. plus created availability to be more available when people needed to interrupt me. What we did was we

my team, this worked, My team of managers would meet every morning at 8:30 .30. We started at eight, so this wasn't a new change of hours or anything like that. But every morning at 8:30 we had a huddle. And all we did in that huddle was just say, does anybody need anybody? If the answer was no, we just wished everybody a good day and we were off the phone in sometimes a minute. Sometimes they did need yes. And that wasn't the important part. The important part was for the rest of the day, as you work through your day,

If something came up and you needed to interrupt somebody, you could ask yourself a question. Can this wait till 8:30 tomorrow morning?

If it can wait till 8:30 tomorrow morning, then you can bring it to that meeting. You know people are going to be there. So we have a scheduled half hour of interruptions. And then what we would do on top of that is I would schedule one -to -ones with my managers every Thursday. And on that one -to -one in my calendar, I would have two meeting requests at the same time. One was the recurring meeting with them. The other one was the list of things that I wanted to talk to them about. So when something came to my head and I'm like, hey, I need to talk to Mary about this.

I would add it to the meeting beside Mary. So when we would start the meeting with Mary, would say, Mary, I've got four things to cover today. Mary would say, Joel, I've got 25. We would easily cover 40 things in half an hour to go through for the week that we're able to wait till Thursday. And by doing that process, I would easily save 40 or 50 interruptions from each team member every week by scheduling time to deal with the things that pop up. The irony is I had a lot more time in the week if they needed me for something important.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:55.672)

Man, that's a powerful move, especially with the access to the person, right? That's often the biggest thing. People are so busy. When do you find time on their calendar? That is a power move to know that you're gonna see them and you're gonna be able to, something that you, whatever it is you need, if it's a quick thing or that, that's cool.

Joel (49:17.595)

So imagine I sit with six managers in an afternoon and we go through 40 things each and they all start with what's urgent and important to them. So now we can use the Eisenhower matrix there instead of trying to use the Eisenhower matrix reactively to the 300 emails that would have come from them.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (49:34.19)

true story. Well, Joel, here's what I love. I love that you have taken this lifetime of experience and turned it into a passion for this focus and this ability, the interruption overload and attacking interruption overload. Like, please harness that enthusiasm and that emotion you got for it and keep keep doing this because there is absolutely a need for it and

I will be absolutely shocked if you and I aren't sharing a stage at some point in the future, talking at conferences about this, because it seems like you and I run in the same circle. So you're preaching to the choir with me, but I love that we got to share that with you listening to. So thanks for coming on the show, Joel.

Joel (50:19.067)

Thank you for having me. I love what you're doing and you know as a takeaway one of the things that happens often when I speak is somebody will come up to me afterwards and start talking to me about what we've shared and the last for a hug and I find That is the sign that what you're doing what I'm doing We're on the right track to truly making a difference in the world and if you're listening to this you are too just by listening and trying to try to a difference in your world and

It takes a lot of guts and it takes a lot of effort and it's tiring, but there's hope and we're going to do this. We're going to make this easier and better by doing less.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (50:55.86)

Absolutely. You know, remind this reminds me of and it's a story worth telling real quick. The quick anecdote is there's a story about a little kid and some fish that had walked, washed up or washing up ashore. And the kid is walking along and he's throwing the fish back into the ocean because they got washed up. And but it's a whole beach. There's so many of them. And so this older gentleman, this grandpa comes in and he's like,

You know, kid, why are you going to? Why are you messing with that? You're not going to help those fish. And the kid like kind of looks down at his shoes and he reaches down and he picks up another fish and throws it back and he looks at the grant and he looks at the grandpa and he says, but I helped that one. And like that is exactly what we're talking about, Joel. Yes, it's that one fish. It's not all the other ones. It's the one that we're helping like heck. Yeah. So give those hugs.

And I love that. That is a that is a very cool thing. Now, if people want to keep in touch with you, what's the best way for them to keep in touch with you?

Joel (51:57.317)

I love it.

Joel (52:01.209)

Reach out to me on LinkedIn. I want human connections. I want to connect to people and share messages together and share passion. And you can find me there. I'm the only Joel McCharles in the world.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:12.854)

You got it. Joel Mack Charles. I'll hook you up with that link to in the episode notes. So hit that button and connect with him. I know he would love that. And for you tuning in, do you have a friend or colleague who has been struggling with interruption overload? Have you talked about this with a colleague or somebody? Because would you what I would love my little invitation for you is would you share the link to this episode specifically with them if

the message that comes from, if you send them a text message or if you send them an email with a link to this episode and you say, thought of you when I was listening to this and have that back and forth with them, whether it's that the person you worked with five years ago or whoever it was that you were talking with this about, if this reminds you of somebody and you share it with them, that little interaction I find is very cool. And so I do this.

where I share episodes or books or things like that. Whenever I'm thinking about somebody I do. And it's an amazing way to keep in touch with people that's not just because you need something. It's fun to be able to offer. So if this episode says that, know Joel and I would love, we talked about the fish and giving hugs after presentations. that's a person we can help too, we certainly appreciate you sharing this with them. And also by the way, if you haven't, thanks for liking and subscribing to the show.

And Willie really with me, I do a lot with my email list. So if you want in on that fun, that's a great way to do it. I hope you'll join the email list. The subscribe link is down there for you in the notes. And so if, if I or Joel can help you or your team with these in predict incredibly practical tips to leveling up your productivity, reach out because I love sharing productivity gladiator with you because together we're going to change your life. That's a wrap.

Tactics For Managing People Older Than You - with Ann Kerian

Ann Kerian, an author, executive coach, & consultant joined Brian for a candid discussion on managing older employees. The episode is full of practical tips and personal insights. Brian and Ann explore strategies for building respect across generations, avoiding common pitfalls, and leveraging diverse strengths in the workplace. It's a must-listen for leaders who, whether formally or informally, lead team members that are older than them.

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The Audio/Podcast

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References In This Episode

• The 5 generations in the workforce now:

  • Traditionalists-born 1925 to 1945.

  • Baby Boomers-born 1946 to 1964.

  • Generation X-born 1965 to 1980.

  • Millennials-born 1981 to 2000.

  • Generation Z-born 2001 to 2020.

• The link to the 1st episode where Brian shared the story behind “learning by committee” at the 1-minute mark.

• AnnKerian.com

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Episode Digest

In today's diverse workplace, it's increasingly common for younger professionals to find themselves leading teams that include older, more experienced colleagues. This dynamic can present unique challenges, but also offers valuable opportunities for growth and collaboration. Let's explore some key strategies for effectively managing across generations, with a focus on how younger leaders can navigate these relationships successfully.

Building a Foundation of Respect and Communication

The cornerstone of any successful leadership approach, regardless of age differences, is establishing a foundation of mutual respect and open communication. When stepping into a leadership role where you're managing older team members, it's crucial to start by acknowledging the wealth of experience and knowledge they bring to the table.

One effective approach is to schedule one-on-one meetings with each team member early on. Use these meetings to:

1. Learn about their career goals and aspirations

2. Understand their strengths and preferred working styles

3. Ask about their past experiences and what they've learned

4. Inquire about any concerns or challenges they foresee

By taking this proactive step, you're demonstrating respect for their experience while also setting the stage for open, ongoing communication. Remember, the goal is to create an environment where everyone feels valued and heard.

Leveraging Strengths and Experience

A key insight for younger managers is to recognize and leverage the strengths of older team members. Rather than focusing on potential technology gaps or differences in working styles, look for ways to utilize their deep industry knowledge, refined problem-solving skills, and established professional networks.

Consider implementing a reverse mentoring program, where younger and older employees can learn from each other. This approach not only helps bridge generational gaps but also fosters a culture of continuous learning and mutual respect.

Implement a "strength-spotting" exercise within your team. Have each member identify and share their top skills and areas of expertise. Use this information to inform project assignments and team collaborations. This is especially effective in situations where you’re leading a project but do not have any formal authority over the people you’re leading, such as a project manager.

Navigating Technology and Change

One common challenge in managing older team members is addressing potential technology gaps. It's important to approach this sensitively and avoid making assumptions about an individual's tech skills based on their age.

When introducing new technologies or processes:

1. Provide comprehensive training for all team members, regardless of age

2. Offer multiple learning formats (e.g., written guides, video tutorials, hands-on workshops)

3. Create a supportive environment where questions are encouraged

4. Pair tech-savvy team members with those who may need extra support

Remember, resistance to new technologies often stems from a lack of confidence rather than inability. By providing adequate support and emphasizing the benefits of new tools, you can help all team members embrace change.

"Don't just expect me to go home and read a book and do it because I might learn better if I come in and I hear somebody or I might learn better by watching. So keep in mind that not only are you teaching people who are older, but you're teaching people who are different in learning styles."

Avoiding Age-Based Assumptions

One of the most critical aspects of managing across generations is avoiding age-based stereotypes and assumptions. This applies to both older and younger team members. Resist the urge to categorize individuals based on their generational cohort, and instead focus on each person's unique skills, experiences, and working preferences.

Actionable Takeaway: Create a "working preferences" document for your team. Have each member outline their preferred communication methods, working hours, feedback style, and other relevant preferences. Share this document team-wide to promote understanding and effective collaboration.

Establishing Authority Without Overemphasizing Position

For younger managers, it can be tempting to frequently assert your position to establish authority. However, this approach often backfires, creating resentment rather than respect. Instead, focus on demonstrating your leadership through actions:

1. Be consistent in your decision-making

2. Follow through on commitments

3. Admit when you don't know something and seek input from the team

4. Give credit where it's due and publicly acknowledge team members' contributions

Remember, your team already knows you're the manager. Your goal should be to earn their respect through your actions and decisions, not by constantly reminding them of your title.

Notable Quote: "If you are somebody that has to announce yourself, then you don't have the kind of respect that you probably need to be in that position."

Embracing Continuous Learning

As a younger leader managing older team members, it's essential to maintain a growth mindset and demonstrate your commitment to continuous learning. This not only helps you develop as a leader but also sets a positive example for your team.

Seek out mentorship opportunities, both within and outside your organization. Don't be afraid to ask for advice or guidance from more experienced colleagues, including those you manage. This demonstrates humility and a genuine desire to grow, which can earn you respect from team members of all ages.

Notable Quote: "I'm not coming to you as somebody who knows everything and how to treat people. Because a lot of times it was me who wasn't either treating people well or being treated well."

A Unique Challenge, And A Tremendous Opportunity

Managing across generations presents unique challenges, but it also offers tremendous opportunities for growth, innovation, and collaboration. By focusing on open communication, mutual respect, and leveraging diverse strengths, younger leaders can successfully navigate these dynamics and build high-performing, cohesive teams.

Remember, effective leadership transcends age. It's about creating an environment where all team members feel valued, heard, and empowered to contribute their best work. By implementing the strategies discussed here and maintaining a mindset of continuous learning and adaptability, you can thrive as a leader, regardless of the age dynamics within your team.

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Today’s Guest

Ann Kerian
Author, Executive Coach & Consultant

Ann's 15 years of experience as a television anchor led her on to a career offering consulting, motivational speaking, authoring, fundraising, recruiting, and coaching services. A member of the National Speakers Association and International Coach Federation, Ann provides individual and group coaching as an executive and life coach. She has worked at KWWL-TV in Iowa, WEAR-TV in Florida, and WCTI-TV in North Carolina, handling significant roles such as co-anchoring and covering military affairs and health stories. Ann is recognized as one of Cedar Valley's top 20 under 40 business leaders and has served on multiple advisory boards and committees. She currently consults for Mile Bluff Medical Center, manages talent acquisition for Straight Forward, and produces internal PR videos for John Deere. Ann co-authored “Mastering the Art of Success” with prominent authors.

Website: annkerian.com

Facebook: facebook.com/annkerianllc

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/ann-kerian-0626104

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:03.782)

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer on this show, I share personal practical productivity skills. And In this episode, we're talking about bridging generations and it's the tactics for managing people that are older than you. Man, I've been really interested in this topic for most of my career because I've had, I've managed a lot of people that are older than me and it's a challenge and an interesting new skillset. And with me on the show today is Ann Kerian who's an author, executive coach and a consultant

on this topic. Ann thanks so much for joining me on the show today.

Ann Kerian (00:38.826)

Thanks so much for having me. I do love this topic as well, Especially with so many different generations in the workforce right now. It comes up all the time. It is going to be around for a long time, too.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:51.046)

Say a bit about your background now and how it relates to our topic today. You've talked about this before, I assume?

Ann Kerian (00:59.146)

But you know, When I get people calling me and asking me, you know, I need somebody to come in and do some kind of motivational speech for my association, for my staff, whatever it may be, And usually I'll kind of give them a list of things that I have, but for the most part, I'll say, what do you want them to learn? What do you want them to walk away with? And what are your pain points? And it almost always comes down to just the basic people getting along at work.

And so then I'll talk about how many different generations do you have? Yes, we do have that. now that you say that, yes, we have a lot of different generations and we have people who are retiring and they're supposed to be mentoring people coming in new. So it does come to flows to the top of a lot of topics that are chosen because it's across the board. This is not obviously doesn't isn't particular to any type of industry. It's everybody. We all have to get along at work.

And it's not always easy.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:00.157)

And with this one, so there's a lot of folks that talk about leadership and certainly other people who have talked about the topic of managing people from other generations or people older than you. So what would you say makes you a bit different from other folks who also do this?

Ann Kerian (02:18.026)

Well, I've lived it. I'm on obviously the older end of the workforce now, which is very difficult for me to say, Brian. I can't believe it. So just being honest here, I'm in my mid fifties and you know, I was once the young person that knew everything. I mean, I knew everything. You can even ask the people that worked with me at my first place of employment, which was a television station in Minot, North Dakota.

My general manager at the time Wayne Sanders We had a conversation one time because I was always in his office with new ideas or my news director's office And he said, you know, and I just don't think life is ever going to go as fast as you want it. He's like you just need to slow down and I was I've been told that my my whole life so he was he was spot -on, but I I'm very disclosing about that. I'm not coming to you

as somebody who knows everything and how to treat people. Because a lot of times it was me who wasn't either treating people well or being treated well. And so I think the fact that I can come from all angles probably makes me a little bit more unique. Some people are maybe on the younger end and they're just talking about how hard it is for them, or they're on the older end and they're saying, here's how you should treat us. I can see it both ways. And that's probably why it's such a popular topic for me.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:42.374)

Yeah. And you certainly speak about this too, when you go into businesses and different clients that you've worked with, this is a topic that's come up a lot. Yeah.

Ann Kerian (03:52.106)

All the time. All the time. It's like I said, everybody has issues with this. And a lot of it they'll say is, you know, well, we have some personality problems. Or, you know, somebody will call and say, you know, I have an issue because I have a lot of people who are now in managerial positions who were probably previously they were with their peers and now they're managing them or now they're managing people who are older.

And I'll say, well, you know, give me an example of what happened. And so one of the stories was a woman who was a manager. She had hired how she describes it, a young hotshot, which I'm sure older people do say that always just a young hotshot kid or whatever. But he was he was a young hotshot kid. They knew his stuff. Well, he wanted to have a meeting with her. And so since one of the things millennials are tagged with is that the world doesn't happen.

fast enough for them, much like me when I was that age. They want things fast, fast, fast, right? So he just would walk in her office, like all the time. Whenever he needed anything, he would just walk by, kind of throw a question at her, and then he'd walk away. And so she had talked with her manager and HR saying, you know, I can't deal with this kid. And they're like, he's so bright. He's got so many great ideas. And she's like, don't care. I don't care about any of that.

I care about how he's interrupting me during my work day and I'm trying to focus on things and he thinks I'm just there for him whenever he needs help. And he said, well, I don't think it's that and we do have an open door policy. Well, what it came down to was when I came in to consult that company and that office in particular, I just got them both in the room and we talked about what their wants and needs were as far as that scenario specifically.

So what it came down to, young hot shot kid, experienced manager, she basically said, I just really need you to schedule a time to see me. She's like, send me an email. Now everybody has calendars out there, right? Just find a space on my calendar. I think you did that to me, Brian. I was like, when do you want to get together? Because I'm old school. And you were like, here's my calendar. So that has been new the last five years or so.

Ann Kerian (06:18.41)

So she's like, just find a time on my calendar so I can focus on what you're saying and asking of me. You might think you need to know right now, but I'm not going to be any good to you when you're just bopping in and out and I'm not prepared for our conversation. And he was like, I am so sorry. You know, I didn't know that. That makes a lot of sense to me. I just know that you have the answers, you know, somewhat complimenting her.

Ann Kerian (06:48.33)

I know you have the answers. So I was hoping I could just swing by, not take much of your time. And it's really all about communication, which is the number one problem in the workforce today.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:03.11)

True story across all the generations. And you know, you talked about the story for me. This is a personal story for me as well. I'll never forget when I started my career, I was the young hotshot manager that you're talking about. I got promoted up pretty quickly and I'll never forget that I was transferred to Boca Raton, Florida, which if you're familiar is certainly got its stereotypes for some of the older generation settling there after retirement and

Ann Kerian (07:06.314)

True story. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:31.59)

I I was 22 years old and my whole staff at the store was in their 60s or older. I think maybe a couple were in their 50s. Everybody else was 60s. So many of them had grandkids that were approaching, you know, my generation or my age. And so it was Walking in there. I'll never forget when they said you have to, I want you to sit down and do performance meetings.

with these, it was a sales job. It was at a city furniture, actually furniture store. And so the staff was there and I was a showroom manager and my gosh, you mean I'm going to sit down and tell, I mean, these people are going to laugh me out of the store if I'm going to tell them what to do. or how to do. And so it's that managing people that are older than you, especially people that are a generation or more older than you. That's something that a lot of folks have to face, but until you do it, it's a challenge and it can be intimidating. So I want to give some real

practical answers to that, because I learned the hard way and learned a lot of those things. And I know you've talked about it too. So I can't wait to have this conversation with you to let's, let's talk about some of these things. So I want to, I want to do it from two different lenses. Let's start first from the lens of informally. And what I mean by that is oftentimes you're put in charge of a project or you're put in charge of some kind of effort at work. And some of the people who are on that effort are

Brian Nelson-Palmer (08:53.734)

older than you. And when I say older, let's say five years or more older than you. Oftentimes, you know, there's, there's a lot of ages we can talk about and in terms of what's older than you. But for you coming in, everyone, the person that you're managing or trying to get a performance from, you don't, you are in this situation. Let's start out with the scenario where you are not their boss. You do not have any authority over them. You really are coming to them. You're trying to get something done as the team lead for whatever this effort is.

So, Anne, in that situation, what what do you say to that person who's coming into that situation? and they got people five years or older and it's informal, they don't have any specific granted authority on that?

Ann Kerian (09:39.114)

Okay, they're just leading maybe a single project. They're not their boss at this time, but they're the one that really has to start the communication. And that is the way to do it. I mean, the scenario I just talked about. A lot of people, If you want somebody's full attention and respect, you need to realize that they have, that your rights kind of end where theirs begin. I mean, you have to come.

to a mutual agreement on how to communicate. And that is the basis for really any generation working together. So what I would say to you as somebody who would be doing that is that you would need to just set up time to have a conversation and ask a lot of questions. If you walk away from anything after this podcast, realize that if you ask questions as opposed to making statements,

It comes off a lot softer. It comes off a lot more open -minded rather than you just stating, here's what we need to do. We need to work, you know, we need to meet three times a week. I need it to be between five and seven, you know, and going on and you're just basically telling them what to do. There's no interpersonal communication. So I would tell you, you need to go and talk to that person and say, let's talk about

what's gonna work best. How do you like to be communicated with? I mean, there's only 800 different ways that we can communicate with each other now, right? I mean, some people sit next to each other at work, but still email. You know, I mean, we really need to talk more, but I understand that that's not always feasible, but say, I want, well, I just want you to go to my calendar to set this up. I would prefer you call me and we find a time.

I would prefer you email me several different times that we could have the first meeting for this project, or I prefer you go through my secretary. I prefer to do projects first thing in the morning. I want to make sure I get them in in my day and then I'll do my own work afterwards. There are so many different choices that if you communicate with that other person right from the beginning and find out the foundation of how this is going to work, that is going to be the best for you.

Ann Kerian (12:04.202)

And you have to be open -minded because if you ask a question, you have to be willing to adjust to the answer or else you might as well be making statements. Like if you're thinking, well, I'm only going to work on this Monday night, so I'm going to tell them we're going to work on Monday nights. Well, you can't go into it and say what day works for you because Monday's the only day works for you, right? So if you can be as flexible as possible, as open -minded as possible,

That is the best way to form that foundation for any type of project or anything that is happening in the workplace. So that's step one, for sure.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:40.23)

I think you kind of tie into one of the notes that I made for myself was to build rapport and show respect for that person because the reality is in many of these scenarios we're talking about, they're going to have more experience than you. So trying to come in and be an expert over them is really

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:02.246)

not going to get you anywhere because they know and you know that they've got more experience than you do. Now that doesn't mean that they're better at it than you. You might be better at it than them, but they've got more experience. So acknowledging that experience and saying things like, I really appreciate your thoughts can go a long way and find that the other thing too with this is remember that you're on the same team in this, in this scenario.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:28.486)

It's an informal, you're the lead of the project, but you have no authority over them. So in this case, if you look at it like the two of you are sitting on the same side of the table and you're both looking at the project together side by side next to each other, you can use words like us and we, we need to do this, we need to do that. Maybe this is our, our effort and you're kind of in it together. That will probably go a long way toward that, the sort of underlying tone here, which is build that rapport and show respect.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:57.606)

for them that they're bringing to the table too.

Ann Kerian (14:02.57)

Yeah. So that's it. I love the point about saying us and we. That's great. And I think so we know we're going to establish that foundation at first. And then as we move on, it is so important to involve those people, because whatever you are feeling that this is making you anxious, you have to almost assume they're feeling the same way. Because I know I've said that before. Like if I go and I'm on a committee,

And it's the first meeting and we go in there and I look around and maybe I'm the only woman. Maybe I'm the oldest there. Maybe I'm the only one that doesn't have this side of experience or this type of degree. We all come in with that little bit of anxiety about what is gonna happen. So don't ever assume or be intimidated by somebody who's older because chances are they're feeling the same way. And that's something that we need to remember too.

So we've got to have the open communication. Don't be intimidated by someone. Try and involve different people. If you see, you know, if it's, let's say four people are on your committee and somebody's just not talking, my fault on that, which I've had to learn about myself over the years is that I am a talker, of course. I would think that people who weren't contributing and weren't talking maybe weren't interested or

just wanted to be on this committee to say they were on a committee, but didn't really want to do anything. I had this kind of unconscious bias that I've had to work on to just know and I find myself in meetings, I'll say, you know, Jenny, you haven't said anything yet. What are your thoughts on this? And then it's usually something profound because they've been such a good listener while the rest of the people are just listening to talk. They might be the one that's actually listening.

to have a great opinion about what's happening. And that could be of any age, of course. But again, establish that foundation, don't be intimidated, and make sure if you are the lead, like you said, that you are involving all the people because you're gonna be asked what they're contributing to it. And so for you to say, well, I don't know, they don't say anything, kind of falls on you. You need to keep track.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:18.694)

And I want to yes and you on this one. Yes, that's true. And one of the big mistakes that especially young and outgoing folks or even folks that are just younger than the people they're working with. Sometimes people are a little more introverted and in order to get anything out of an introvert, you have to pause long enough to let them speak and you have to not interrupt them when they're speaking because they will get to the point and they have some really great points.

but as an introvert, they're not gonna compete with you. If you're a little more extroverted, they're not gonna compete with you for the mic. They're gonna let you have it every time. And so if you want from them, you have to give them the space to get in there and they definitely will. So make sure you give them that space. And what that means is after you ask them a question, pause and let them answer without, don't fill the space, just pause, let it happen.

Ann Kerian (17:16.746)

That is a very good point. So I need to tell you this before I forget because my memory is short, right? I'm older. So I have to tell you this. So as part of my executive recruiting and I'm talking to people, I have a little acronym that I have on my computer and it's easy to use now for people because so many meetings are on Zooms. So nobody's going to see it, but it's W -A -I -T.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:21.83)

Go ahead. Yeah.

Ann Kerian (17:46.89)

WAIT right? And I learned this way back when I was studying to become a coach and it stands for Why Am I Talking? Because sometimes I feel like I need to stop because somebody else needs to get a word in here. I might have the best idea but I really need to realize am I talking too much when I'm trying to draw and motivate and energize others?

Ann Kerian (18:15.114)

Like you said, you need to give them the space to talk as well.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:19.334)

Yep. God, that's, I like that WAIT. Remember, why am I talking? my gosh. Ann I might borrow that at some point in the future. That's gold right there. I love that a lot. Put that sign on my laptop. That's a good one. And you know, in that same vein, one of the other notes I made to myself is leverage their strengths.

Ann Kerian (18:27.242)

You can have it free and clear.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:42.47)

And what I mean by that is many of you, you or you might be familiar with the, the, there's a book called strengths, finder 2 .0 or like strengths based leadership, this idea that, you know, meet people where their strengths are. And I think for the older generation, that is definitely true. I don't want to, I feel like when I say you can't teach an old dog new tricks, that's just making excuses for stuff. That's no longer valid. I don't, I don't buy into that phrase. However,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:12.07)

When, as, as you're dealing with a much older generation, finding the things that they are really good at, feel confident at, like to do, especially if you are in a situation where you don't have any formal authority over them, then leveraging your team with their strengths is going to be much easier to get more out of them because you're not asking for them to do something new or something different. So go for those new things. Go for the things that they're good at, leverage their strengths.

and see how have you approached similar challenges in the past, they might have approached some of these things before, but draw on their experience and draw on their strengths when you're in those groups with them.

Ann Kerian (19:57.226)

And one of the problems with that and bringing that out of people is that a lot of times you'll hear, well, that's how we always do it. You know, that's how we've always done it. I mean, how many of us have heard that in the workplace? Like, and we just want to scream when you're younger, you just want to scream because you're like, well, that's dumb. But that doesn't sound obviously very professional. You know, I have a filter now that maybe I didn't have at one point. I would have been, why are we doing that? You know?

But, and it's important though, because people who are oil are older and have been loyal are more likely the ones to say that because they've had success. A story of when, you know, you're trying, you're going through new computers and new computer training and new programs. And everybody who is not, you know, really savvy hates those days at work, right? I mean, if it, I remember it would come so far and everything that we've

changed with computers, but you have to learn the whole new system. Those are horrible days for people who are older and just, you know, are fine with what's in there. Like they just don't, why are we spending all this money on updating the computer? It's fine. Well, I said that 20 years ago, you know, look where we are now. So then you'll have somebody who's young and quick and really understands it and is savvy. And they'll be like, well, let me just show you. And you know, the chicka chicka and it's, it's already done. See, that's a quick way to do it.

Ann Kerian (21:25.866)

And I had a client in that scenario and he said, you know what? You have found a very fast way to do that. And I appreciate how far this has come because you're going to make a real difference in this company. He said, but if something goes wrong, you don't really know all the steps that it takes to get there because you found a shortcut. What I need you to respect and understand is the long way so that if something doesn't work,

you can probably go back and fix it or figure out where to tweak it. Where when you just take your shortcuts, you don't really have any idea. And I think that's a really good point. When you are dealing with somebody older, they probably know the history of things. Whereas you might be saying, well, this is faster. We should do it this way. Then we can meet our deadlines, move on to another project. But the older people are like the ones that are that school teacher.

that needed you to show out your work and you didn't understand why because you got the answer right. You're like, why do I need to show you when I know the answer? And the teacher would say, what? I need to know that you know how to get there. And that's important to older generations. My father, one of them, when he would buy me a bike, I had to know how it was put together. It was always a Schwinn.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:41.862)

I'm sure he's sorry.

Ann Kerian (22:51.403)

when I was little had to end that because they ranked first in consumer reports. I was probably the only five year old on the block that knew my bike ranked first on consumer reports. So it is the same type of thing. Older generations, people who've been around, people who are loyal will have much more respect for you. And hopefully vice versa, if you understood how you got the answer, because that's what they're looking for.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (23:16.134)

Yeah. You know, let's, so that was a lot about the informally. Let's step up to formally now, formal supervision now. And so let's say now you are, you've been promoted. You are the supervisor. You're the first round supervisor, the second round supervisor. You have people underneath you on the org chart that report to you that also are older than you. So what

Ann Kerian (23:24.842)

Sure. OK.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (23:43.334)

How does that change the dynamics? What advice do you have there, Ann?

Ann Kerian (23:49.898)

You know, as I was thinking about this prior to talking with you, I'm looking through and researching again, you know, older generations, things I've talked about probably over the last 10 years as I'm speaking. And there are just a few things we need to tweak just for the older generations. But mostly it's how we should treat anybody. So if you're looking at, well, I got to learn a whole new way to treat somebody. You know, why? Why? Just because they're older?

Not necessarily. If you approach them with the same type of respect that you would one of your peers, you probably aren't going to have issues. So now that it's formal and you're the supervisor, the same thing is finding and having that communication right out of the gate. Because if you just wait and wait until it comes up or wait until there's an issue, which so many managers do, it's a big mistake. You don't want the first time

that you meet somebody, talk to them face to face, maybe share a laugh about something to be when you have to call them in because something is wrong. You'd want to have that foundation, as you said, you know, getting in to getting to know them a little bit, have some kind of communication, some type of respect, just a foundation to talk to them and know where they're coming from, know what their goals are.

I was actually coaching somebody who this is the exact same scenario. And he brought the person in who was older. And he said to them, you know, let's start from the beginning. I mean, first of all, you know, record looks impeccable. Thank you for being so loyal. You know, you're the type of person that I hope we all can be, you know, kind of just, you know, complimented him over and over. And he's like, what are your career goals? And the guy was honest and he said,

I've been here a really long time and everything keeps changing. I really see myself probably retiring. And instead of being like, I don't have to deal with this guy. He was like, what? We want to make sure that we retain all your knowledge, everything you've got before you decide on that time. And whereas maybe somebody else would have said, OK, well, thanks for letting me know. We'll keep want to make this great. Let me know if

Ann Kerian (26:13.578)

HR can help you with that or when you want to leave. That would be just a horrible thing to do when you have this goldmine of information right in front of you and you don't know where that's going until you ask. Going back to asking questions. So for the question, when you are now the supervisor, immediately have that conversation, be open minded to what they are going to say, establish that type of respect. And One thing that I find that really, really works

is ask them if they'd be interested in mentoring someone. Now we have basically said, in not so many words, I value you. I know you know what you're doing. You've been here a long time. You have great experience. You're somebody I trust. Would you mind mentoring somebody who's coming up in the ranks? But all you've had to do is ask, will you mentor? And you've covered all those other compliments.

I do not know one person who would not feel great about being asked that, even if they feel they're overwhelmed and they don't know if they want to do it and that sort of thing. They know they're appreciated. and you get the most out of people by letting them know they are appreciated. So that also should be part of your first conversation. And if you don't have a mentoring program right now, why not? It really helps people. And another hint is that the best mentors skip a generation.

It's almost like it's a grandparent type mentoring rather than somebody who's in the generation right above you, because there can be conflict, right? That's child and parent conflict. Everybody has a conflict sometimes with their parents. But if you skip a generation when you're finding mentors, you will find it to be much more successful. So supervising informal or formal, have those conversations right away.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:03.75)

You know, and I like that one a lot because there's often a, the mentor point is really a good one because that, that sense of Often in the older generations, you are looking back, you're looking down, you're reflecting on your early career and your early days. Many of the folks that are of the older generation can remember the days when they were the younger generation. And oftentimes they have some really good

tips and so for the younger, for if you're managing older folks, one of one of my favorite phrases that I like to say is I look at my career like I am learning by committee. And what I mean by that is I look at it like you have something to learn from each of those people.

each of those mentors. So don't just have one, go find six grandparent age people that are way older than you or mentor much older mentors and learn from them. And in the very first, it's funny, in the first episode of this podcast ever, if you've never heard it, I actually tell the story about where Learning by Committee comes from. And it's a quick five minute story, but it's just such a profound thing about how you can learn from different folks. So.

that leveraging the mentors in a way of getting knowledge from multiple people helps you level up so much faster by gaining from that experience. And honestly, they're probably going to enjoy it. They wouldn't agree to kind of mentor you even formally or informally, even if you don't have a mentor program, they wouldn't agree to do it if they didn't want to do it. So that's a, that's a really good point. I like that one, Ann.

Ann Kerian (29:47.466)

Yeah, and a lot of times people will come, well, how do we retain our employees? I do recruiting as well. And well, how do we keep people? And so many people are having a hard time in the workforce right now with people retiring, especially health care, nurses retiring. And one of the things I'll ask is, do you have mentor program? Do you have people connecting with each other and feeling a sense of community? And I know some corporations are like, that's just nothing.

I do, we don't really do that, but I will tell you it makes a huge difference. And you're not wasting money on training and then they're leaving. I mean, you are keeping people there who want to be there. And once you have that respect between generations, I mean, that is just a huge hurdle to everybody getting along. And the only way to do that, like you said, is to have a lot of different members or mentors. You might learn something great from hopefully most, if not all of them, but you might also learn.

how not to treat people because I have been in those environments as well where I'm like, if I was a manager, I would never talk to somebody like that or I would never, you know, close the door on them or whatever the scenario was. And I have to tell you that's helped me just as much as the good bosses and managers have for sure.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:05.062)

You know, and that leads right into one of my thoughts that I had on this topic when you're formally in there. One of the mistakes that I watched a lot of other young managers make is they asserted their position during the day to day. Even if it was informally or offhanded, they would remind people that I'm your boss. I'm your whatever, your supervisor. Here's the deal. They know that you're their boss.

So there's no reason to rub their face in it or, and like you, you never have to say it ever because they know it and you know it. And so it actually, they know that you're the boss technically, but the reality is we talked about, you know, earning their respect and stuff. You're not going to tell them by tell by starting something with, well, because I'm your boss, I'm going to do something that's never going to get you any further.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:00.646)

than it would have otherwise. That doesn't help. It actually hurts in a lot of scenarios. So instead, earlier we talked about using the terms us and we, talk about how you work with them. If you ever meet their family or you meet their friends or you meet their somebody, if they introduce you as their boss, that's cool. But if you meet them, all you say is, hey, I work with such and such and they're so good or they're great at their job or whatever, you work with them. We never need to talk about the fact that you're the boss.

Ann Kerian (32:06.442)

Great.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:28.454)

because if it ever comes up in a situation where it needs to be there, it's already understood.

Ann Kerian (32:35.146)

Right. And those, quite honestly, are some ugly conversations. You know, if it has to be started, if it has to be started with because I'm your boss or because I make the big bucks or whatever they want to say, they're demeaning you right away to start that. Who wants to start a conversation like that? I say the same thing. If you are somebody that has to announce yourself, then you don't have the kind of respect that you probably need to be in that position. And unfortunately,

people who are really, really good at their job, like physically doing whatever their job may be, does not mean that they're gonna be a good manager. Because they don't take classes in college called, you know, dealing with difficult people 101, or dealing with older people who I don't agree with, you know, at the 200 level. I mean, there's nothing like that. And that's where you're gonna have the most problems. I know you're great at your job and you got promoted.

good for you, but if you don't treat me like a human being, I am not gonna wanna work here. And what you need to realize is that the number one reason that people leave their jobs is not because of money, it's not because they haven't been promoted, it is because of their immediate supervisor. So when you take over that position and you are now,

the immediate supervisor of people who are older than you and you are saying that's a problem. You are having a direct impact on their career, on their life. And as we talked about, we're looking for mentors, we're looking for ways. I mentioned the gentleman who said, well, I'm just gonna retire. So now you have somebody who's under you, you know where their mind is. They wanna know the company solid. They wanna know they're getting their 401k. I mean, they are coming to work for a whole different reason.

than the 20 year old who's under you, who's like, I'm probably just gonna be here for three years and then I wanna move on to bigger and better. If we're lucky, if the company is even lucky, people switch so often now. So you've got loyalty and you have to know how to manage that at the same time as you have new people who want the best and wanna move on. And that's difficult for you. You have to learn how to do that.

Ann Kerian (34:54.41)

because that's what makes a really good manager and being empathetic for both ends of that spectrum is at the top of that list for sure.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:04.39)

Yep. Such a good point. And along those lines, one of the

Ann Kerian (35:07.818)

Did I answer your question? I'm trying to, did I answer your question?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:14.246)

I mean, I think so. Yeah, we're talking about the formal things. Yeah, I think we're there. And as long as, and while we're on this topic, one of the things that came to mind for me was your authority in their eyes is a job function and job description, not because you're better than them. And that's, I...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (35:39.494)

I mean, I flashback on in my scenario where I was the showroom manager and I was in this in this store with folks that were had been doing it much longer than I do and were older than I was. And the reality was by the numbers, according to those metrics, I was better than them. However, even though the numbers might say that people of the older generation will still not believe it, they will still not think it in many cases. And

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:08.582)

It's not your job. I mean, they can look at the numbers. They can see that you're better than them too. But you telling them that, Hey, I'm better than you at this. Like your, your authority is going to come from that, that position that you have, but it's your job. Once you become the supervisor, it's your job to set the direction of the team and make team decisions, even if they're hard and do that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:36.486)

and then communicate them with these people and let them know what they're part of these decisions are. But here's the key. Don't you are no longer doing their job with them. Your job is to be the supervisor now. So your job changed. So just because you were at one point better than them and got promoted.

potentially if that's why you got promoted, who knows? There's a lot of reasons people get promoted, but if you're in that position above them and you are very good at doing their job now, now you've got a different job. So don't go back and do their job. I think that's a huge mistake is people try to be better at the job than the people that they supervise when the reality is everybody wins if you're better at being the supervisor and getting your goals met from the team,

instead of just because you could do it better than they could.

Ann Kerian (37:34.73)

Right. And let's be honest, being a manager or a supervisor of older people, not easy. Of younger people, not easy. Of people the same age, not easy. None of it is easy. So this cannot, you cannot blame this on, well, they're older and they don't listen to me and, you know, they don't respect me because I'm younger, because it's not easy no matter what. And you know what, people who are older, who are upset that you got promoted because maybe they're on their way out, who knows why? That wasn't their decision. So shame on them, seriously. That is nothing you need to worry about because I'll hear that a lot too. Well, they're all upset because I got this job and they didn't and they wanted it and stuff. That's their issue and you can't do anything about it.

If they want to take that up with the hiring people, the HR people, they can do that. And if it gets to the point where you have to have a conversation about it, so be it. Because I even said there, I was in a scenario where somebody else wanted the job and I came in and I got it. And when I arrived there, everybody was mad because they all wanted this other person to get the job. So they were less than friendly because, you know, they wanted to obviously make this other person feel good.

And I had to get to the point where I was like, I can't take that on. I'm not going to turn down a job or turn down a promotion to better my family because somebody else wanted it who was older or more experienced. They didn't get it. So you cannot do anything about that type of criticism. So you know what? Do not even try. That's their problem. It's not your problem. And you would be better to just ignore it all for sure and move forward with what you believe were the reasons you got that job. Because everybody's told, right? They probably told you, I am giving you this promotion because I believe that you have great ideas for our future. I think you have the educational background with new technology that others don't have. I need you to share that. You need to remember the reason you were hired and focus on those things. Just like you said earlier, Brian, people need to remember what they bring to the table.

so they can focus on those things. People stay in their lanes and everybody is a lot happier. And if they want to improve, great. But to take things out on each other because of politics, it's a bad idea.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:15.462)

Totally agree. Now, Ann we've been talking a lot about many of these points. And you know, if you go back and listen and I didn't tell you what the topic was today, many of the bits of advice that we gave would probably apply to older people managing younger people too. So let's hone in specifically kind of in a rapid fire way. I had a few ideas that I was thinking about that are very specific to younger people managing.

older generations. And I think you started it off great with the make an appointment versus just drop in older, older generation likes you to make an appointment and the younger generation is fine with you just dropping in. And my counter to that is I think that's true of the younger generation, unless it's a formal or a very important discussion, then they're probably going to appreciate the appointment as well. So they can prepare for it. But for anything that's not a need, preparation is not needed. I think they would.

So I think that's a good starting point. What else comes to mind for you on specifically for younger folks managing the older generation?

Ann Kerian (41:23.146)

Well, I think it is really important that, yes, we did say that these are tangibles that you can take away, okay? You need to obviously make those appointments. You need to be open -minded about talking to them. You need to find out what their strengths are, what their career goals are. You might think they are gonna retire in a year or two and that they have no intention of doing that. You can then obviously ask them if they want to mentor as we talked about as well.

That makes it feel inclusive. That makes them feel valued. That might not be, that is something different. You probably wouldn't ask a really young person to do that. Make sure then that that mentorship even skips a generation as we talked about. And at the very end of the day, give them the respect that you would want in return. It's more important probably with the older generation because you are.

sort of bucking all the things they've learned and you might want them to race it all and start over. So you're asking a lot of people. And I've had a lot of people who are hiring position, they'll want to hire someone younger. And they'll say, because then I can teach them how to do it right. They don't want to hire somebody older because they're going to have to teach them over again. But then you're losing out on so much by looking at it that way. So be open -minded, be respectful, do the appointments, do the mentorship.

I'm trying to think of other things for sure, but please reach out if you have any more questions because it can work. It's not just the older generation that makes it difficult. It's just human beings and generation. We can be difficult.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:57.574)

Absolutely. And you know, I've got, I've got three ideas that I want to bounce off you Ann as I was thinking about this one, three things came to mind for me. One, as the younger generation, one of the things you need to avoid is any of the latest trends segregation that can happen. And what I mean by that is

Let them opt out of whatever that conversation is, but don't opt them out. So what I mean by that is like, Let's say you're talking about Snapchat or BeReal or one of these brand new apps that all the young kids are using these days. Instead of sometimes I've heard younger folks say, well, this is, you know, this is what the young folks are doing these days. And you say it in a way that kind of, but wants to verbally wants to butt these people out because they're older. So they're not going to be interested. Instead.

start to explain it to them and be like, they said, what's BeReal? And you can be like, instead of, you wouldn't know younger, you could say, well, it's a new app where you take photos, you know, and be real about what's happening right then. Have you ever used it before and ask them and then let them be the one to say, I'm not into that stuff or I don't believe in social media. And they're probably going to get on the negative train and tell you all the reasons why they don't like it and whatever. But what's important is that you as the young person didn't tell them that they're too old. Don't do that.

That's the mistake, I think, for them. And so that was one. My next one was Start out addressing them with the Mr. or Ms. or Mrs. title when you first meet them and first work with them. And that's a respect thing. So if you're working with Ben Smith, if the guy's name is Ben Smith, you start out calling him Mr. Ben or Mr. Smith, and you stick with that until they say,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:43.59)

You can call me Ben or you can call me, you know, until they change it from you, just use that as your default mode is use that Mr or Miss title because that's let them be the one to kind of make that selection. And that seems like such an insignificant thing, but that that establishes that respect we were talking about when we earlier we said build rapport and show respect that starts out showing the respect right up front. Even if what you're going to say isn't nice or isn't good news.

you still give them that that respect of Mr. Or Ms. Or Mrs. Any thoughts on that one? And have you come across that at all? Or do you think that makes

Ann Kerian (45:19.402)

Well, you know what you'll get on that, though. You know what you'll get when you do that. You'll say and I, you know, you'll get this because people have heard it before. They'll say, OK, Mr. Smith. And They'll say, I'm not Mr. Smith. My dad was Mr. Smith. You know, like they find it almost like you're already saying you're old because you wouldn't say Mr. Smith to the 20 year old.

Ann Kerian (45:47.114)

You know, so they're I mean, because I even when I go somewhere and they'll say, ma 'am, I'm like, ma 'am, really? Do I look like ma 'am? Because my grandma was ma 'am, you know, and I know it's trying to be nice. And I appreciate you saying it, Brian, but I think you should be consistent with that. Like if you're not going to say it to somebody younger, you probably don't need to say it to somebody older, because by segregating that just to older people, you're basically telling them they're older. Something to think about.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (46:15.622)

You know, that's a really good point. That's true. And I would say that, and then my thought is, okay, well then it makes sense to ask them what they would prefer to be called. Should I, what would you like me to call you? Is it, I mean, cause sometimes it's a name pronunciation. You need to pronounce their name right anyway. So, hey, what's Benj? Is it Benj? Should I call you Ben? And that's to everybody. Yeah, that's a good point.

Ann Kerian (46:44.554)

And that's where we go with asking questions. At the beginning of this, I say, if you learn nothing else from this whole conversation is to just ask questions. Don't assume, don't assume what they want to be called. Don't assume what their goals are at work. Don't assume that they're on their way out. Don't assume that they don't want to know what be real is. Ask questions. And it's so much more engaging than just making those statements. My dad was a judge and it was John Kearian.

Ann Kerian (47:14.698)

And you would, you know, people would say, well, I call you John, do I call you Mr. Curian? And you'd be like, no, call me Judge. I mean, you just never know. So you might as well ask.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:23.526)

Yep, that's a good point. And my last little thought was about tech gaps. And you mentioned new technology earlier, Anne. And this is one where I personally feel like it's no longer acceptable to say, I don't like computers, or I'm not good with technology, because the reality is it's not going anywhere. So saying that is kind of a defeatist thing. I don't think that's good. However,

respecting the fact that people need training and time to learn these new skills, you can't look down at your nose at somebody just because they don't immediately pick up the app or whatever the latest software is that you're bringing in or they don't get it. So start with the training and give people a chance to do the training and really try it first and save that assumption of, you know, they're older.

Ann Kerian (48:13.13)

Thank you.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (48:20.006)

they're not gonna get it. Save that until they prove you right by having the training and then they still aren't able to get it. What do you think about the tech gap thing?

Ann Kerian (48:32.17)

Yeah, I mean, it is a quick way to insult somebody, you know, honestly. I have two kids, my older boys are in their 20s, and they'll be like, Mom, just don't touch it. Just let me show you. You know, and they'll get really aggravated with me if I ask certain questions or they'll say, well, I've told you, I've told you how to do this before. And I was like, you know, stop. I taught you how to use a spoon. So you, you know, give me some little relief here that I don't quite understand this as quickly as you do.

Ann Kerian (48:59.242)

And so, and that's a meme by the way, I can't take credit for that one. But it's just very important because it is somewhat insulting because you're again, you're basically saying that they're old because you're like, well, you know, I'm sure you haven't heard of this or I bet you don't know how to do this. And I don't know, maybe I'm naive, but I think new things and new programs are hard for a lot of different people. And I hear I'm not tech savvy from a lot of people. And I think I even say it myself.

But when I'm doing it, I know I just want what I'm saying is I'm not tech savvy, meaning don't don't skip steps. Like don't say, OK, well, you know, when you get to that place, you just click on whatever you click on. See, well, what you didn't tell me is that I should obviously know that when I get there, there's a drop down menu that then leads to my name that leads. You know, there's you skip a lot of steps when you think somebody understands and that.

I guess that goes back to what we're talking about is that we're the old teachers that want to know how you got to where you got. And if you have to look at older generations, does anybody think of that? Would your teacher just be okay with you saying, yeah, well, here's your laptop, good luck? No, and the best places for learning training than the best things that I've had is they provide you with a template.

If we've learned nothing about society, it's that we're all so different and that neurodiversity is, you know, talked about all the time. We all learn differently. Don't just expect me to go home and read a book and do it because I might learn better if I come in and I hear somebody or I might learn better by watching. So keep in mind that not only are you teaching people who are older, but you're teaching people who are different in learning styles.

And to be a good manager, to have a good company, you have to realize what the differences there are too. Like I said, not easy. You've got a lot of different people and a lot of different learning abilities and ages that you're responsible for.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (51:05.478)

Yeah. You know, and let's let's switch gears here because you've shared a lot of these really good stories and I'm curious, what does this mean? This topic area, what does this mean for you personally? Is there a story there on that?

Ann Kerian (51:19.882)

Well, personally, I see people who are not keeping their jobs or they're not getting a job because now they feel they are too old. Now, there is an example. I was consulting for a bank and one of the women that they found out after a while, she was transposing the numbers. Okay. I do that every once in a while, scares me to death when it happens. You know, I'm like,

my gosh, I wrote the phone number down wrong or whatever it is. Never had those thoughts when I was younger. So it's very scary. But obviously somebody like that, that's not going to work. But to be in a work environment and ignore those who have that type of knowledge that they can bring and share with others, it is so self satisfying to help somebody else. When I was living in Florida and I worked at the television station there, I was probably six years into my career.

And on the weekends, I anchored the weekends and I got to, I had the opportunity to, I didn't have to. I raised my bar to this. I would take care of the interns from the University of West Florida. We're in Pensacola. And I loved it. And those interns now, I mean, one of them is this accomplished author. She's on national TV doing crime stories. She's amazing. Some of the others are still in television.

others went on and became lawyers. I mean, there's a part of them that will always, part of me that will always cheer for them. And so if you're young and you think you're just going in to battle people that are older and they don't want you there, that is not true. And maybe they're a little jealous, right? Life goes too fast. I had an opportunity where I worked with a law firm and this is a good story. I'll make it short. I know we're getting long, but.

I had an opportunity where I worked with a law firm and the woman that I coached, they thought she was miserable there. But after coaching her and getting down to the bottom of it and the crux of it, she was just jealous. She was like the oldest one there. She couldn't go out with everybody. She'd always hear them talking. And she did not feel part of that community. She didn't feel part of that work family, which we spent more time with our work family than we do our own family. And she didn't feel part of it.

Ann Kerian (53:39.754)

So then we did somewhat of a mentoring program where she would have coffee once a week with one of the younger staff, kind of fill them in on how things have worked over the years, listen to their opinions. And it was a beautiful relationship. So I guess I feel strongly about this conversation because I know it can work. I know people can work together and I would never want somebody to lose a job or not get a job just because of their age, despite what laws say, you can get around those, it still happens.

At least I think it does. And so I just would never really want that to be the case. I don't want people to give up on people.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (54:18.182)

You know, and on this topic, are there any other resources that you would recommend when it comes to, you know, managing people that are older than you?

Ann Kerian (54:30.698)

Well, I certainly would talk to your HR and use that human resources person as a huge resource. They are being updated on the most statistics about people in the workforce, what we can do to help them, what we can do to help all different kinds of people. I mean, just, you know, we have everything at our fingertips. Go in and Google and say, how do I work with an older person? You can type, how do I work with an older person who drives me crazy? And you'll probably get like.

10 pages of stuff, you know? It's out there. Don't think that you can't do it or that you don't want to do it. Like you don't, for heaven forbid, don't not accept a position because you don't, you think it'll be difficult. There are tons of resources out there. You just have to look and it certainly doesn't take long in this day and age as you well know, because you all know, you know, technology better than we do.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (55:20.742)

Yeah. And what's well, I agree with that. And I'll drop any resources that I have. I'll drop those in the show notes and some of the things. And, you know, and you mentioned one of the things I am going to put in the show notes that I think is helpful is the different generations. Sometimes we assume that everybody knows what year everybody is. But what is Generation X? What is the millennials? What is the

Brian Nelson-Palmer (55:45.606)

You know, these things, I think that's really important to actually specify that. So please open up your show notes and take a look at that too, so that you're clear on this. And the yes and I want to do for you, and I love what you said is find those resources and my yes and is yes, do that and find the resources that are in the format that you're going to like. Because for example, I'm an audio guy. So if I can find podcasts or audio books that are on this topic, I am more likely to pick those up.

than I am blogs or especially books that you would have to read a physical copy of. So whatever your flavor is, find the resources that are your flavor because they're going to be much more likely to actually use those. And like I said, it's learning by committee. So you're not looking for the one gold nugget to rule them all. You're looking to learn a little bit from this episode and maybe there's other podcast episodes. Like use those resources, but learn by committee and get something from all of those resources.

Ann Kerian (56:50.89)

I 100 % agree. I could tell you it's in this book and that book, but if you're not a reader, it's not going to be interesting to you. 100%.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (57:01.369)

Well, so, Ann here's what I love. I love that you have spent so much time working with folks and coaching people on this topic and really, clearly it comes from a personal experience and a personal love and you've managed to transpose that into business and working with your clients. And so,

I love the personal stories that you bring to this thing. And I really appreciate you sharing some of those little nuggets with us here today. Because I think that's it's even if you many of the things that we talked about today, people you're you listening probably might have heard that once before, but sometimes you got to hear it a few times, even even though you already knew it. And so this this was great. So Ann thanks so much for for joining us today and talking about that.

Ann Kerian (57:52.97)

Thank you, it was my pleasure. I am honored to be on your podcast. So I wish you out there all the best and I really thank you, Brian, for the opportunity.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (58:04.518)

Yeah, and where's the, if they want to find you or keep in touch with you online somewhere, where should they go?

Ann Kerian (58:12.362)

They should go to my website is probably the easiest, which is just AnnKerian .com, A -N -N -K -E -R -I -A -N .com. I will be very attentive and responsive and I would love to hear from you.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (58:27.686)

Absolutely. And for you tuning in, do you have a friend or a colleague who manages people older than them? If so, would you share this link to this episode specifically with them? Because I know Anne and I would love to know that our conversation touched people that are actually facing this exact scenario. And I know there are a lot of folks who are facing this scenario. So it would be

Thank you.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (58:56.422)

such a wonderful thought that, and not to mention the interesting conversation you can have with them, because everybody who's managed people older than them, some of the best stories I've had with coworkers have been about this topic right here. my gosh, that I shared with you, that showroom and those, the folks that were significantly older than me and managing those folks, man, some of those conversations are really good ones, whether it's funny or tearful or whatever it is.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (59:22.246)

the conversation you can have from sharing this episode with them might be really fun. So I hope you'll do that and share this episode and thanks for liking and subscribing. And I do a lot with my email list. So join in on that fun. If you want to get on, get in on some of the best of what I send out and if I can help you or your team with incredibly practical tips, leveling up your productivity, please reach out because I love sharing productivity gladiator with you.

Because together, we're going to change your life. That's a wrap.

Life Balance: The Blueprint You've Been Missing

In this episode, Brian unveils the Gladiator Life Balance Blueprint, the piece of the puzzle you’ve been missing. The 5-Pointed Star represents your balance, and you’ll want to plan how brightly your star GLOWS - Growth, Love and relationships, Others, Work, and Self (GLOWS). Brian provides a full collection of practical tips advice on implementing this blueprint as well. You’ll want to dive into these, whether you're deeply struggling with life balance or simply looking for a few ways to tune yours up.

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The Audio/Podcast

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Links to References In This Episode

• Author: Victor Frankl. — Title: Man’s Search For Meaning

• Training for yourself individually that you can begin right now through the Productivity Gladiator Signature Membership

• Training for your team at work:

  • The full curriculum as a part of The Productivity Gladiator Masterclass

  • One-off workshops to level up the team’s productivity in one area.

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Episode Digest

The Gladiator Life Balance Blueprint: Architecting Your Best Work-Life Balance

In today's fast-paced world, achieving a healthy work-life balance can seem like an elusive goal. Many of us find ourselves constantly juggling various responsibilities, often feeling overwhelmed and unfulfilled. However, there's a powerful tool that can help you take control of your life and create the balance you've been seeking: the Gladiator Life Balance Blueprint.

This comprehensive approach is built on the shape of a star. Your job is to remember that balance is based on how brightly your life GLOWS:

1. Growth

2. Love and relationships

3. Others (something bigger than you)

4. Work

5. Self

““This is a game changer for you. It is the blueprint that you’ve needed for your life balance.””

— Brian Nelson-Palmer

By focusing on these five areas, you can create a well-rounded, fulfilling life that aligns with your values and goals.

Let's break down each category and explore how you can implement them in your life:

Growth

This category encompasses all the ways you're trying to grow and evolve as a person, both personally and professionally. Challenge yourself to have an equal number of personal and professional growth goals. Examples might include learning a new language, taking dance classes, or exploring new places in your town.

Love and Relationships

This category covers three main areas: love life, friends, and family. It's crucial to nurture these relationships regularly. A key insight is that at least two of these areas should involve in-person interactions each week. Virtual connections are valuable but should be supplemented with occasional face-to-face meetings.

Others (Something Bigger Than You)

This category focuses on activities where the primary beneficiary is someone other than yourself, AND you're not doing it for money. Examples include volunteering, coaching a community sports team, or contributing to a cause you care about. These activities help you connect with your community and give your life a sense of purpose beyond yourself, which is a huge leveling agent in your feelings of balance.

Work

While work is an important part of life, it's just one piece of the puzzle. In this category, focus on two to three significant career goals you're working towards, rather than day-to-day tasks. These should be ways you're growing and evolving in your professional life, and should not be things that already appear in your job description.

““Most of life balance isn’t about the goals, it’s about the journey.””

— Brian Nelson-Palmer

Self

This category is all about taking care of of YOU, personally. It includes physical aspects (sleep, fitness, diet), mental well-being (meditation, journaling, downtime), spiritual needs, and fun activities or hobbies that bring you joy.

Implementing Your Blueprint

Creating your blueprint is just the first step. The real magic happens when you put it into action. Here's how to implement your Gladiator Life Balance Blueprint:

1. Plan your week in advance. Aim to do this on Thursday afternoons, looking ahead at the next 10 days.

2. For each item in your categories, identify the "one next thing" you can do this week to move forward.

3. Block time on your calendar for at least one item from each category every week.

4. Review and adjust your blueprint regularly. It's a living document that should evolve with you.

5. Focus on progress, not perfection. Celebrate your accomplishments along the way.

6. If you're feeling overwhelmed, look for ways to combine activities that fulfill multiple categories.

Remember, this blueprint is about importance, not the number of hours spent on each category. It's about making your journey fulfilling, not just reaching end goals.

Key Takeaways and Notable Quotes

1. "90% of your life is the journey. This exercise sets you up to enjoy the journey along the way."

2. "Mental health is based on a certain degree of tension... the gap between what one is and what one should become." - Viktor Frankl

3. Compete with yourself, not others. Focus on your own growth and progress. Social Media WILL NOT provide a fair comparison.

4. Don't overbook yourself. If necessary, look for activities that fulfill multiple categories simultaneously.

5. "Everyone's got a plan until they get punched in the mouth." - Mike Tyson. Life will throw curveballs, but the key is to keep planning and getting back on track.

6. This blueprint works for all stages of life, with minor modifications for students or retirees.

7. Having a demanding job is not an excuse to neglect other areas of your life. Start each week with a plan to hit all categories.

8. If a category feels empty, do some soul-searching to find ways to fulfill it.

9. Your blueprint should have contain enough across all categories to feel pushed each week, but still be achievable.

10. Your categories and goals can evolve over time. Don't be afraid to adjust your blueprint as your life changes.

““Compete with yourself, not others. You need to love yourself and the progress you’re making.””

— Brian Nelson-Palmer

Remember, the goal is not to achieve perfect balance every day or week, but to ensure that you're nurturing all important aspects of your life regularly. This approach allows for flexibility while keeping you accountable to your overall life goals.

As you implement this blueprint, be patient with yourself. It may take time to find the right balance for you, and that balance may shift as your life circumstances change. The key is to stay conscious of all five areas and make consistent efforts to nurture each one.

So, are you ready to become the architect of your best work-life balance? Start creating your Gladiator Life Balance Blueprint today, and take the first step towards a more fulfilling, well-rounded life.

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About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. Graduates of Productivity Gladiator training wield time management & life balance superpowers, activate a laser-guided ability to focus & prioritize, and implement a sniper-precise approach to task & email management. If what you’ve seen or heard here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:41.134)

I'm Brian Nelson-Palmer Palmer. On this show, I talk about personal, practical, productivity skills. And This is a Knowledge Drop episode. I'm actually revealing the Gladiator Life Balance Blueprint. This is the outline that you've been missing to architect your best work -life balance. Here's the outline of how it's gonna go. I'm gonna talk about the background. We'll talk about what is good life balance.

Then I have an exercise we're going to do together where you're going to get started right now building your plan, your blueprint. Then we'll talk about the implementation plan of how you implement this. And I'll talk about important notes and lessons learned for you, for your journey with using this tool. So let's jump back. Jumping right in, This is the background on where this comes from. I started working on this back in 2014.

And COVID happened in 2020, and this topic really went bananas. So I was actually really honored and happy to have an answer to help the folks who needed it during COVID. And All those lessons still apply to this day, and it's only gotten better and better. and the advice and the tips and the thoughts and the tool itself, the blueprint, has only gotten better and better. So I'm about solutions, right? This isn't about the research.

It used to drive me crazy during COVID when everybody presented research that said that work -life balance was struggling. or that kind of thing. Like If you're having an issue with this, Chances are if you're listening to this, you already know that your own work -life balance is a challenge. You don't need me to tell you how big of an issue this is. Let's fix it for you. So my question was, how can I make this actionable? And that is this plan. That's why I'm calling it a blueprint, because This is...

a game changer for you. It is the blueprint that you've needed for your life balance. Also on that topic, we're going to call this life balance. I don't just call this work life balance because there's actually five categories that make up your blueprint. Work is just one of those. So if any of those categories are missing, you're going to feel out of balance a little bit. And it's

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:02.062)

not just balance between work and life, though work is certainly part of it. So here's a quick story. I remember a woman, Diane, she came to my training and basically her life, she just worked, then went home, made some dinner, watched some TV and went to bed. The next day was rinse and repeat. And she was basically just lived weekend to weekend. And even the weekends were short and tough because she was always playing catch up.

from the work week. So three months after taking my training, I ran into her and she was a whole new woman. It was amazing. She started getting together with friends every Wednesday night after the training and this blueprint. And she ended up joining a trivia league. Turns out she's a trivia person and she found out a way to work in time to start exercising and lost some weight too.

She had more energy than she ever did before. She even met somebody at trivia night a couple of weeks before I ran into her and she'd actually been dating for the first time in a while, which is something that she'd never had time for in the past. So guys, Diane had a whole new glow about her and it's your turn to start that transformation. So let's get you started right now, right here today. So What is good life balance? There are five points to it.

I want you to picture your life as a five -pointed star. And now, picture your star as a five -legged star -shaped table. That's how I want to describe balance. And Each of the points of the star represents a critical and necessary part of your life in good life balance. Now, why is it a star? Picture...

a star -shaped table. Close your eyes, picture a star -shaped table in your head. Now, imagine if one leg would fall over, if one leg would fall off or get damaged or somehow have a bad week or a bad month, that table would still stand up because that is what good work -life balance looks like.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:15.79)

If your table only had one or maybe two legs, like Diane, I mentioned she only did some stuff for herself and went to work and that was pretty much it. That was more like a two legged table. And of course a two legged table isn't going to stand up or balance very well. So when we talk about balance, five legs is how we achieve that balance. That's why it's five points. And.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:41.774)

I want you how brightly your star glows. G -L -O -W -S is the acronym. for what those five stars are. So here you go. It's G for growth. How are you growing and evolving each week? Then there's L for love and relationships. This is family, friends, your love life. O is for others. This is something bigger than you.

Others are the primary beneficiary of these things. So you don't do these things for money in the "O" category. And then S is for self. This is for your personal needs and your personal benefits. Sleep, diet, fitness, spiritual, me time. Those are the types of things in self. So we're going to go more into those in the actual exercise. That's your overview. Now let's make it actionable. And I want you.

to try this. If you're like me, you just listen to podcasts or you watch YouTube videos passively. Yeah, what's going on? You hear what they say. But now I actually want you to be active and participate while I go over this. So writing things down helps set them in your memory. And sometimes you have to see and hear things seven different ways before it actually registers in your brain and you'll make a change.

So I'm asking you to do this, not just listen to this. So pause this episode if you need, while either you pull up a note in your phone, you can do this in your phone, or find a pen and a piece of paper right now. But I want you to write down these five headings. Call it the Gladiator Life Balance Blueprint. And I want you to write down these five categories as I talk about them and fill them in. So the first category, write down Growth.

And then underneath it, I want you to write down all the ways that come to mind that you're trying to grow or evolve as a person. Challenge yourself to have just as many ways that you're trying to grow personally as you do professionally. What are you learning? How are you growing? How are you trying to evolve currently? So here's some examples. Are you interested in learning Spanish? Do you want to learn to dance?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (08:04.206)

Are you going somewhere new around town that you've been wanting to try? Are you stepping outside your comfort zone? Like maybe you're going to an improv class or something. So feel free to pause this episode, pause this while you're listening to it or watching it and continue marking down your notes for this category. And once you're done, look down at that list. And I want you to make sure you have as many bullets that are for your personal growth.

as well as you do for your professional growth. So many times people who start to feel unbalanced are only growing at work. That is the only place that they grow. Everything else is static and nowhere else. So that's why you need to grow personally too. So I want you to have challenge yourself, put as many bullets down of ways that you wanna grow personally and professionally.

Pause if you need to, and then we'll keep going. Next up, I want you to write down love and relationships. That's your next category. And underneath that heading, I want you to write down love. And what goes under your love life? Maybe this is date night. So for an example, if you're single, maybe this means leaving a night open for a date. If you're single and would like to date or be involved with someone, for your love life.

If you're in a relationship, maybe that means you write down date night. Maybe you schedule a date with your partner and you write down anything else that you would want to do with your partner and for your love life and write that down. Anything to feed your love life. Next, write down friends under love and relationships. And I want you to keep it on your radar that you need time with your friends. And then last up, I want you to write down.

family. When will you see yours? That's what we're talking about. And last up, write down anything else that generally comes to mind under the topic of love and relationships. Those three are the three main ones, but if there's anything else that comes up for you, this is where you'll put it. Now the next category is, I want you to write down others bigger than you. That's the name of the category. Now,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:21.806)

This is something that you support with your own time and effort. What are you doing to contribute toward your community? Something for others bigger than you. Do you do volunteer work? Is it a good cause that you work for? There's two keys to the things that go in this category. First, the primary benefactor of your work is someone other than you. That's why we call it others.

This is why we started the category with that name. So it benefits someone other than you, and it's not for money. If you make money doing this thing, it's not for others. So examples, for me personally, I volunteer with Big Brother Big Sister. So I spend time with my little brother two to three times per month. I volunteer doing that. Also, I volunteer with the Wammies, which is the Washington DC area Grammys. I contribute toward that program. So,

for you, this could be volunteering with your church or it could even be creating and coaching, creating and coaching a social sports team, like maybe a softball team or a trivia team or something. As long as the other people are the clear primary beneficiary of your actions and that's what you're getting and that's what you're driving at with this effort. That's the things that go under others, something bigger than you.

Feel free to pause if you need to while you're writing notes down. And then next up, we're moving on. Next category, write down Work.

Then write down two to three things that you're working toward in your career. Think about big goals. Nothing in your day -to -day work gets written in here. So whatever it is should be a way you're growing and evolving. This should not be anything that's a normal job function or something that's listed on your job description wouldn't be in here. So examples, this could be a new certification you're working toward or a goal that you're you're leaning.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:27.406)

leading your leading your team toward, we're not gonna spend too much time here because like I said before, people interested in this topic, this life balance topic, If you saw this episode title and you were interested, it's likely because you don't, it's not because you life too much, it's because you probably work too much. So that's how you end up stuck in this area and why you seek out things like this. So we're not gonna talk too much about work, but there is a category for work and jot down.

two to three things that you're trying to achieve. Goals, bigger picture things.

Next up in your last category, we talked about GLOWS, right? G for growth, L for love and relationships, O for others, W for work, and the last one is self. Write down SELF as your fifth category. And underneath, I want you to write down the word physical. And under here, you can put sleep, fitness, diet, and anything else that's for your physical self.

That helps your physical self. So examples, maybe do you need your bedtime on the calendar? Do you need more sleep? I do. That's actually how I get my sleep is I put my bedtime on my calendar. That sounds crazy, but that's the way if I know that I'm shooting for seven hours, I need to look ahead and think, when am I going to bed and when am I getting up? How many hours do you need of the sleep? Write that down. Also write down diet and fitness. Where are you trying to get to with those?

Because for most people, sleep, fitness, and diet are the three things that fall off the fastest whenever they're working towards something or they're caught up. Next up, write down mental. Meditation, Meditation, wellness stuff, this could be journaling, this could be definitely write down. Under mental, write me time and downtime. For me, for this one, after doing this drill over time, I now know that I need one weekday night.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:29.262)

and one portion of morning and afternoon or an evening, one portion of a weekend day as me time. And when I say that, that means no talking. That means no computers, no phones. Sometimes I watch TV or read a good book, but it is me time. And I didn't know that starting out when I started this drill, but now that I've been paying attention to it, I now know that on a weekly basis, if I get those, that's the me time that I need. So you're tracking it now. Next, write down spiritual.

And anything that goes with that, maybe this is religious needs or going to church. If spiritual is important to you, put it under self and jot down what you're looking for there. And then last up, write down fun and interests. These are things that are not for money again, right? These are for yourself. Maybe these are hobbies like I've got a buddy that builds those big, massive Lego kits. And my wife works puzzles for me. This is boat time.

I am a boat guy. I love being out on the water. So I want you to write down under your fun and interests, what goes under self? What do you need for yourself?

Those are your five categories. That's the beginning of your blueprint. Feel free to pause if you're still jotting notes down. And now let's talk about implementation. So next up is the implementation. How do you implement your plan? And what you do is you plan your next week in advance. And here's the way that this works. I want you to go back and look at your categories. And I want you to identify your one next thing for each of the items you wrote down under each of the categories.

Most of the things you wrote down will likely be big things. So look at your list and break each one down to just the one next thing that you could accomplish this week that would move you one step forward to this thing. Even if it's a super small step toward that goal, what would it be? Like, for example, if learn Spanish is the growth item that I mentioned earlier, maybe I write down, take one Duolingo lesson per day.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:35.694)

or whatever your app is, Babbel, or one of the learning lessons. Now next, so you've, pause if you need to, you're writing down the one next thing for each of the items. And next, you're gonna plan your upcoming week in advance. You're gonna look at the upcoming week and you're gonna block time for each one that you can and write at least one on your calendar from each category. That's your goal initially.

So for the first week, just make sure you have one from each of your categories. That's your five stars, your five legged table that we talked about that star. I want one leg on the ground for each of those in your.

life balance blueprint and in your calendar one from each category then over time now that's just one and the goal for if you're new to this maybe it's just making sure you check each of those categories make sure you've got one for each of those things in in the upcoming week and then continue to adapt in the future weeks so for example my quadrants have changed

over time. time. What I wrote down years ago is not the same one that it lives that happens today. My blueprint is a living document and it keeps living and I want yours to be too. So what you wrote down right now, this isn't final. I want you to learn and evolve each week. So I hope you wrote it in a place where you'll be able to refer back to it and change it if needed. If you wrote it in pen, maybe a pencil or something or transfer it to a computer, but I want you to be able to change it because life is unpredictable.

and plans may need to change. Your quadrants may evolve with you. Also, just a note, there's no technology needed here under the list that you all you need is the list you made, the blueprint that you wrote down. You need that and you need your calendar, whatever that is. There are no special apps, no tracking sheets. This is you sitting down looking at your calendar for the next week in advance.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:44.302)

checking the sheet that you just created, check your blueprint and look at the calendar and see if you're getting each of your five quadrants in a way that feels good for you and figure out whether when and how these things can happen.

Now let's talk about important notes and lessons learned along the way, because That was the basics. I just told you how to do it. Now let me refine it a little bit with some tips and some helpful things. First of all, when, when do you plan your week in advance? Thursday at 2 PM That's my vote. If I could just tell you do Thursday at 2 PM from experience, that's my favorite time. That's the best time. To this day, it's marked on my calendar at work Thursday at 2 PM

I am planning my work week in advance and I'm planning my personal week in advance. Both personal and professional, you need to plan them both. And I like Thursday because then I can coast it. I look at the upcoming 10 days. So I go from Thursday all the way through the following Sunday. I'm looking at that time, checking my quadrants, my blueprint. I'm checking my blueprint to see what those five categories are and am I doing something for each of those contributing at there's something for each category in there. there.

And if Thursdays don't work for you though, that's fine. But I like going into Friday and the weekend already being ready for the next week. So Thursday at 2 PM is my main, but Just know if your week starts on Mondays, Mondays, like mine does, mine starts on Mondays, Monday morning is too late. You have to plan your week in advance by Sunday evening. You have to do it in advance. Next tip, these categories are about importance.

not about the number of hours. I had a guy once who came to one of my workshops and he raised his hand and he pointed out, hey, Brian, you know, I work 50 hours a week. There is no way that I can possibly get 50 hours for self and 50 hours for others and 50 hours for, and of course that's so true. And guys, that's no big deal. This is about importance, not about the number of hours. So you're gonna work way more hours than you'll do for any of these other categories.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:55.47)

And that's OK. Each of these categories is important and you should pay attention to each of them each week, but it's not about the amount of hours you spend on them. Each of them has the same level of importance, though, so you are fighting for each one. You are putting a sense of importance, the same level of importance on each one. Next tip, most of life balance isn't about the goals, it's about the journey. Here's what I mean. This exercise

is focused on making your journey fulfilling. Think about it. You likely worked for months or even years to get your most recent certification or your college degree. And if you don't enjoy your life along the way to those goals, you lose. you lose. 90 % of your life is the journey. This exercise sets you up to enjoy the journey along the way. Here's a...

This is my favorite quote that kind of speaks to this. Victor Frankl Frankl is an author. I'll put the link to this book in the notes. The book is called Man's Search for Meaning. And It's a first -person account of, he was a psychologist who was sent to concentration camps in World War II. So it's interesting to hear his account from a psychologist's perspective studying people's brains on what that was like. And he said in his book, this is the quote, mental health is based on a certain degree of tension.

It's the tension between what one already has achieved and what one still ought to accomplish, or it's the gap between what one is and what one should become. He saw that when people were no longer making, were no longer on the journey of life in the camps, that's when they died. So making sure your life balance GLOWS like we talk about.

That's how you can live that fulfilled life. You stay on your journey. That's the piece. And this is how you do it with these quadrants or with these, these, this blueprint aim for progress, not perfection. That's the next tip. How do you feel at the end of the week, looking back? Focus on getting a little better each week and celebrating your accomplishments along the way. Adjust what you have written.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (23:15.918)

under your categories as needed. Now here's a special one for love and relationships in love and relationships that category I talked about love, family and friends. Here's a fine I want to fine tune that I found that at least two of those need to be in person regularly each week if at all possible to get the best amount of fulfillment. anything virtually and Anything that's virtual must be in person occasionally.

What I've seen over the years is that you can do one of these virtually, like maybe it's a phone call, you don't see them in person and that's fine, but to really get the fulfillment from the love and relationships category, two of them are in person. So for example, for me, I have a date night with my wife that's in person and I hang with my friends in person. And for me, my family quadrant, I call my family regularly each week. So that one is the virtual one for me.

And then every few months I actually see my family in person too. And those are great. And on those weeks, it might be my wife and my family that I see in person and my friends are the virtual one. So if it's always virtual, if all I ever did was see my family virtually and I never had the opportunity to look forward to seeing them in person, that's where you'll start to feel the weight of that connection. It'll feel like a weight on your shoulders. And also let me say here guys,

seeing someone on social media, you cannot count seeing your friends on social media. That doesn't count. This is about the interaction in person. That's where the fulfillment is. Now, next tip, don't beat yourself up if one week doesn't go as planned. The next week, you'll plan your upcoming week in advance and you'll get right back on track. My favorite quote is by Mike Tyson. He said, everyone's got to plan until they get punched in the mouth.

Right. You probably heard that quote. And sometimes life is going to punch you in the mouth. It happens somewhat regularly, kind of scarily sometimes. And that's OK. The week that you're in might go off track, but you look ahead, you plan your next week in advance, you get up and you get back on track again. Keep focusing on that next week and then the next one and then the next one. You're looking ahead. And this is what keeps you on track. Next tip.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:41.006)

Compete with yourself, not others. You need to love yourself and the progress you're making. That's what's important. You'll have ups and downs on some weeks, but ultimately you are moving through your journey and you're progressing. So don't compare yourself to others. It's your race. It's your life focused on your growth and progress.

Social media is the worst for this because it isn't real. It's like you're comparing your life to any other persons on their best day because that's what they post on social media. And that's not fair. You'll just get discouraged. It's not going to help you grow. This is about your journey. It's not about theirs or competing with theirs. And I know that's hard, but don't compete with others. Just watch yourself and your progress. It's awesome. Next tip.

Do not overbook yourself. I know you're probably thinking, well, Brian, you just told us to put everything on the calendar. I know, I know, I know I did. And when life gets hectic, it's going to be tempting to add more activities and more activities to an already packed schedule. And then you're just going to be overwhelmed. And you're going to be mad at me because there's too much on your calendar and you can't. And I understand instead. Here's what I want you to do. If you're overwhelmed, if there's.

If you're already overbooked, I want you to focus on trying to combine activities that can give you credit in more than one category. So here's an example. Jim was a guy who took my workshop and he was terrible about exercising, but he was really good at getting together and drinking with friends. He did that all the time. So Here's what Jim did. He made some of his social events with friends into activities like like going for a walk.

walking around a park or playing frisbee golf or playing sports, maybe play softball, play soccer or going to play golf and not using a golf cart, by the way, actually walking all 18 holes with your friends. That's a great way to get friend time and have an activity or some sort of exercise to go with it. That's a way that he can take his already packed schedule and add more diversity to it. So see if you can come up with Activities that give you credit in

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:02.094)

more than one of these categories at the same time. Next up, next tip, if you feel guilty taking time for yourself, it's important that you need to work through it. Your life balance depends on you getting some time to yourself and knowing how much of that you need and how you're gonna get it. So you know how on the plane they say like put your own life jacket on before you assist others? That is this situation.

So here's one example that I have. Imagine you're a single mom. You might struggle taking time for yourself. You might feel guilty because, well, if you take time for yourself, that means it's going to be an extra expense because now you got to pay the babysitter and then that's going to put you in a bad spot. And it's like dominoes and it just all falls down. So after taking this course, maybe you start looking for creative solutions to this. Maybe you have a neighbor with kids as well and you could set up a barter system. Maybe the neighbor takes the kids one night.

and that gives you your me time. And then you take the kids another night. And you know, better yet, because the kids have someone else to play with when they're all at your house, you actually might be able to start dabbling in Spanish lessons on your phone and do a free app like Duolingo on the night when you have the kids, because you're supervising them, but you can maybe while you're supervising them also get into some Spanish lessons. So look for these kinds of opportunities. You need to stand up for the needs and time to yourself.

that you need. That's important over time. Next tip. This works in all stages of life with a couple of minor modifications. Here's the two most common ones I get. I just talked about GLOWS. GLOWS is the acronym which includes work, right? Well, what if you don't work? What if you're a student? Well, students, the category of work simply changes to school. So instead of GLOWS, it's GLOSS, G -L -O -S -S for them, right? It's the same process though.

It's the same thing. They just put in their goals in the school area. Or the other one that comes up for me a lot is what if they're retired and you don't work anymore? The other four categories are so important. That's G, L, O, and S, right? So I've actually, I've been asked to share this training with retired folks in a retirement homes because everything in growth, love, others, and self, everything in those four categories,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:24.654)

still applies to you all the way up to the day you die. Every one of them. So you need to stay on your journey. Don't stop because that's the end. Next tip. Demanding jobs are not an excuse to get out of this. I've worked with everyone on this from attorneys to teachers to work workers at nonprofits and everywhere else in between in all the different careers. Even if your hours are unpredictable or crazy,

You start your week with a plan to hit all of these categories. You're still planning your week in advance every week, even if it's job is demanding. Now, what if I have one category that's empty? This is a, you know, this is a gap for you that you may have been missing in your life balance up to now, and you didn't know you were missing it. So do some soul searching, see if you can find one, try to achieve one thing.

from each of the categories each week when you start this drill. The categories I shared comes from, it comes from years of research, hundreds of weeks of practice, experience, and evaluation with myself and with others. I still use my categories. If you take the workshop, I show you my current, my current blueprint. I have it and I share it with you because this is something that's still true for me to this day. So some categories might have more written in them than others. And,

That's fine. That's actually normal. Just know that each category is important. So work toward having something in each category. The other, the flip side to that is what if there's way too much in my categories and I can't do it all? I get this one a lot. A lot of you type A folks might've written down about a hundred goals and some of these things. I've seen some amazing blueprints as people have done this and

Some people that I've worked with have filled their categories with so much stuff that they can't possibly do everything in that list. You should have enough across all your categories to feel pushed each week. That's the right amount. It might be a little bit of a stretch. It might be a little bit uncomfortable, but it should be achievable while feeling a little pushed. That would be perfect. So remember the goal of this whole thing is to feel your life is

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:48.622)

balanced to feel good about your life. Your life is full. If you feel overwhelmed or like a failure because you didn't get all of the things on your on your blueprint, you have too much on your plate. Remember, I told you the story about me and I had the four jobs and then I was able to transition that one when it rolled off. So you may need to take some things off of a category for now. That doesn't mean it's forgotten.

That just means you can always bring it back later. You can shift the time around later, but this is what starts tracking you toward, are you hitting the five quadrants or are you hitting the quadrants? Are you hitting the five categories in this?

So that is what's important.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:10.606)

Here's an example. I used to have four jobs. I had my day job. I had my passion career, which is this business, Productivity Gladiator. I was also doing some part -time work with a nonprofit, helping them with a program that they were running. And then I also teach group fitness classes. I was able to handle it all and still get meaningful activity from each of my categories each week. But the growth category...

in that growth category, I'd been wanting to finish learning Spanish. I studied Spanish in my early adult life after college, but I never finished becoming fluent. And it always frustrated me that I didn't finish that because it would be so handy. I live in Florida for most of the year and that would be so handy. So with all this work that I was doing, I just didn't have time to fit in learning Spanish. So I took that off my life balance blueprint because at the time I was beating myself up.

because I never had time to do it. I never took the lessons. And it was still in my head though, something that I wanted to do. So a year later, the program at the nonprofit had kind of run its course. So I rolled off that and I was back down to three jobs, which you can laugh at me for, but that rolling off that one job freed up a few hours each week. And I added learn Spanish.

back to my categories. And I spend one to two hours per week studying Spanish right now. And that's for no one other than me. That is my growth thing for me personally, and I enjoy it. So remember the five categories guide your balance and they're going to evolve just like you do. But what you're doing in for each category isn't set in stone. You can change or you can update your categories.

whenever you wanna shift your balance, update your blueprint, because it's gonna change. Wow, that was a lot. So I've got two quick things to close this out. I hope that that was helpful and I hope that you tried the exercise and that you actually have stuff written down for your five categories. And two things to close it out. First, if you have a friend or a colleague who you've talked about the struggle for life balance with.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:31.374)

would you send them the link to this episode specifically? I'd love to know that this info is getting to the people who it can help. And it certainly would be fulfilling for me to know that that meaningful connection with that friend would go toward that love and relationships thing for you, where you can have that conversation with that friend. Maybe you can call them and talk about some of this stuff afterwards. I would love for that connection to happen for you. And then the second thing is,

There's more to this, of course. This episode is an excellent start and it will get you started. If you want the full education on this, go to productivitygladiator .com, click on get the training and choose the option for the individual. There is so much more you'll get in the online course, like demos of what successfully planning your week in advance looks like in practice, scheduling tactics, hacks. You'll see my blueprint that I use. It's more...

If it's more than just you, the individual as well, maybe you're thinking about this for your team. I teach this to teams like yours all the time. So reach out to me too. I'd love to help. Thanks for liking and subscribing. And I do a lot with my email list. So join in on that fun if you want the best of what I send out. I love sharing Productivity Gladiator with you because together we're going to change your life. That's a wrap.

Tips You Missed On Successfully Starting Something New - with Dr. Amanda Crowell

Dr. Amanda Crowell, a cognitive psychologist and author of "Great Work", shares powerful insights on successfully starting something new. From overcoming mental blocks to having honest conversations about bandwidth, she provides a refreshing perspective on thriving at work without sacrificing everything else. Her relatable personal journey adds depth to this conversation.

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The Audio/Podcast

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Links to References In This Episode

• Amanda’s Website & Podcast

• Amanda’s Book: “Great Work”

• Amanda’s TEDx Talk: Three reasons you aren’t doing what you say you will do

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Episode Digest

Whether it's taking on a new project at work, learning a language, or starting a passion career on the side, embarking on something new can be both exciting and daunting. Our minds can play tricks on us, creating mental blocks that prevent us from even trying. In this insightful conversation, we explore strategies for successfully navigating those roadblocks and setting yourself up for a smoother journey.

One of the biggest obstacles to starting something new is the fixed mindset of "people like me don't do things like this."

We tell ourselves stories about how others will judge us or that we'll somehow be rejected if we step out of our current roles. As Dr. Crowell shares, "The stories we tell each other and ourselves about what people will say about us when we change keep us locked in our current situation more than almost anything else."

“The stories we tell each other and ourselves about what people will say about us when we change keep us locked in our current situation more than almost anything else.”

— Dr. Amanda Crowell

To overcome this belonging block, she recommends having open conversations - both with yourself and others. If you find yourself hiding your intentions, that's a red flag that you're worried about potential backlash. Getting it out in the open can reveal that most people don't actually care that much about your personal endeavors.

Another common mindset trap is the belief that "I can't do this."

We imagine scenarios where everything would have to perfectly align for us to succeed at this new thing. The reality is that this fixed mindset of inability becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy - why would you persevere if you've already decided it's impossible? Acknowledging self-limiting beliefs is key.

The antidote? As Dr. Crowell puts it, "Start much smaller than people think is reasonable." Rather than attempting your "magnum opus" out of the gate, begin with bite-sized, manageable actions. Don’t start by writing a book. Write a blog post first, then another one, then another one. Take one small step, observe that it wasn't as difficult as anticipated, and then ask "what do I do now?" Focusing on the emergent, Next Smart Step prevents you from becoming paralyzed by the enormity of the overall goal.

Don’t start by writing a book. Write a blog post first, then another one, then another one. Take one small step…

Of course, starting something new extends beyond just your own mental game. In a work context, organizations and managers play a vital role in setting you up for success. Wise leaders are “humanitarian managers” that recognize that their employees are human beings with complicated emotions, not just output machines. They create an environment of psychological safety by framing new initiative as a "beta" and explicitly stating that mistakes will happen. As Dr. Crowell notes, "If a manager can hold that and protect their people so that when their boss looks down, they look like rock stars - that's the magic."

They also facilitate team-level mental contrasting by proactively discussing potential roadblocks and establishing protocols for dealing with them. This normalizes the inevitable learning curves and prevents surprises from derailing progress.

“We can do this new thing, but not at the current level of work. What existing priorities should we let go of?”

However, even the most supportive environment can still breed burnout if boundaries aren't established. A critical conversation that often gets missed: "We can do this new thing, but not at the current level of work. What existing priorities should we let go of?" As Dr. Crowell emphasizes, trying to operate at a 100% workload is unsustainable - you must preserve bandwidth for unplanned emergencies. When managers and employees lack the courage to have this dialogue, the result is overwork, mistakes, and potential health crises.

““Let that feeling of ‘I can’t do this anymore’ be your breaking point. Don’t go to the hospital to realize that was it, that was the breaking point.””

— Dr. Amanda Crowell

Ultimately, successfully starting something new requires developing particular skills beyond just gathering information. You must learn to identify mental roadblocks, ask purposeful questions, assemble an emerging knowledge base, and proactively communicate boundaries.

By reframing our self-talk, setting reasonable expectations, and fostering open conversations, we can overcome procrastination and self-sabotage. So whether your "new thing" is personal or professional, approach it with self-compassion, start small, and surround yourself with supportive voices. As Dr. Crowell advises:

"Let that feeling of 'I can't do this anymore' be your breaking point. Don’t go to the hospital to realize that was it, that was the breaking point."

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Today’s Guest

Dr. Amanda Crowell
Coach & Author on Productivity and Great Work

Dr. Amanda Crowell is a cognitive psychologist, speaker, podcaster, author of Great Work, and the creator of the Great Work Journals. Amanda's TEDx talk: Three Reasons You Aren’t Doing What You Say You Will Do has received more than a million views and has been featured on TED's Ideas blog and TED Shorts. Her ideas have also been featured on NPR, Al Jazeera, The Wall Street Journal, Quartz, and Thrive Global. Amanda lives in New Jersey with her husband, two adorable kids, and a remarkable newfiepoo named Ruthie. She spends her days educating future teachers, coaching accidental entrepreneurs, and speaking about how to make progress on Great Work to colleges and corporate teams.

Website & Podcast: amandacrowell.com

Book: amazon.com/Great-Work-Amanda-J-Crowell/dp/1737374196

IG: @aj_crowell

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dr-amanda-crowell-51188130/

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. These Gladiators wield email management superpowers, a laser-guided ability to focus, samurai-grade prioritization skills, a sniper-precise task tracking approach, Jedi time management skills, and a secret sauce for maximizing their personal life balance. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:04.153)

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. On this show, I share personal, practical productivity skills. And In this episode, we're digging into the tips you may have missed on how to successfully start something new. With me on the show today is Amanda Crowell, who is an author, a coach on productivity and an author.

I'm so excited about her being here. I did. I can't even say it right. She's the coach. She's a coach and author on productivity and great work. work. Amanda, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (00:36.93)

Thank you for having me. I'm super excited.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:39.685)

Now for those people who might not be familiar with you and on this topic, share a little bit about your background and how you're into starting something new successfully.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (00:50.09)

Yeah, so I am a cognitive psychologist. That's the kind of doctor I am. So I focus a lot on the individuals, sort of the individual and their mind and how specifically that our mind creates our reality and how it impacts how we're able to do things. So start something new in one mindset is completely different from starting something else in a different mindset. So so much, a lot of the work can happen just internally to have a different experience starting something new.

So I'm excited about this topic. Great work. The topic of my book and sort of the area that I focus on most is the work that matters most to you. So the stuff that I want people to start anew is whatever it is that's calling to them from the inside. But honestly, these same strategies and skills can be the difference between being able to do what your boss is asking you to do or really struggling to do that and not meeting expectations. So it can work on either end.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:46.817)

Yeah, We're really kind of running the gamut of We can apply these things to if you're currently have a day job and hoping to quit that and start a new job, or if you just want to learn Spanish, or if you've been given a new assignment at work and you've never done this particular assignment at work before and now it's going to be a new thing. It's kind of like that whole approach to trying something new, right?

Dr. Amanda Crowell (02:06.878)

Right, exactly. Well, and that's because you're a human in all of those environments. You're the same human when you're at work. You're the same human when you're trying to learn Spanish. You're the same human when you're in a relationship with your husband or kids or dog. And we think like, oh, I'm this, you know, I'm just now I'm being my worker self for now. But really there's a you in there that's a pure, honest, like the Amanda-ness, the Brian-ness, like that carries with you in every environment. So if you can really understand that person.

then every environment can be informed by the best strategies for you, which is what we're looking for.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:41.617)

Man, preach Amanda. Absolutely. I mean, everything with productivity gladiator is about the person as a whole, right? The skills that we learn is about this. This applies at work and this applies at home. And that totally love it. Now, one thing I'm curious about, there's plenty of folks. I mean, I talk about productivity, you talk about productivity, great work. There's a lot of people who work in this space. So what is it that you would say makes you a little different from those who might do the similar things?

Dr. Amanda Crowell (03:10.11)

Yeah, so my background, like I said, I'm a cognitive psychologist. I have a PhD in that. I've worked in schools and organizations to help focus on like, what are the people in the system? How can they work together? Like what do they need to change? And it's a particular kind of change management system that I bring to all of my coaching and it's all through the book and it's all everything that I do is really honoring of human beings and the way they struggle to make change and the kinds of things that unlock

flexibility and ability to make change. And so one of the interesting things, and it's called improvement science, that's the particular kind of change management system that I've been trained in. And the thing that I love about it is that it really changes the conversation. Often when we talk about productivity, it's about like information. Can you tell me exactly how to time block or use the Pomodoro method or have a morning routine? What should I do in the morning?

But The thing that you learn from improvement science and from working with people, and I know for sure that you've had this experience is that information's free on the internet. All the information's already available. So it can't be about the information. It has to be about the implementation, about the person in the system, and what beliefs are they bringing to it? And how do they, The same exact tip, whatever it is, set strong boundaries by turning off your email when you leave for the day.

Like that's like a tip, that's a piece of information. But then it's like, nobody does it. Or they do it and it makes them deeply stressed and it really worked for their best friend but it didn't work for them and they're very confused. I thought this was the key to productivity. It's like, well, no, it's just a starting point. There's so much more, it's all in the doing of it that changes it completely. And I think as a cognitive psychologist and a sustainable change management expert, that sort of approach to it takes it out of

here's some good ideas, don't you think I have good ideas? And into who are you? What are you hoping to accomplish? accomplish? How does this idea fit into your prior life, what you're currently doing, the stresses you're feeling, the relationships you have, like your self-expertise is what we call it in the book, well, what I call it in the book. That directs completely what works and what doesn't. And so it's that skillset that makes all the difference.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:35.281)

Absolutely. Well, I mean, With that as an intro, then let's talk about our topic for today, successfully starting something new. So when I gave, when I said, hey, let's, this is the, I was really interested in having this episode with you. What were the things that came to mind right off the bat for you on successfully starting something new?

Dr. Amanda Crowell (05:54.846)

Yeah, well, okay. So the first thing that I think people misunderstand about themselves is that we are very particular, right? So it depends on what you're starting. So the classic example of starting something new, especially this time of year, we're recording this in January, it's like, I'm gonna lose weight or I'm gonna start exercising, right? So we know what it is that we're trying to do. And we've probably read a lot about it. We've probably, you know,

watched a lot of people's transformation stories, and then we go try to do it. And at time and time and time again, we struggled to do it. And then it's a question of like, well, we already have the information, right? We need to move our bodies and get sweaty and increase our heartbeat. Maybe we have a lot of information, maybe we've done a ton of research. And it seems like the more information we have, it doesn't actually change our experience of it. So one of the...

One of the things I think I'm most known for is this TEDx talk I did back in like 2018. It was called three reasons that you're not doing what you say you want to do. And it's about the mindsets or the beliefs that we're bringing into what it is we're doing. So we're trying to prepare to exercise. And we're like, well, what do I like? Well, I like yoga and I should run. We have all these beliefs and we continue to get the same result. But if we actually ask a different question,

which isn't about the tips and the tricks and the strategies, but is instead about what beliefs are you bringing into what it is you're trying to do, then you can start to actually move the needle. My personal experience that's conveyed in this TED talk, but also like everywhere I've ever been, it was like a viral article and is that I never ever exercised at all period. I was totally against it. I didn't want to ever like sweat, sweating. I was against it. I was like, some people sweat and some people don't. I don't sweat.

kind of worked for me. And then I had two kids and I couldn't like carry them around and had really bad back pain. So I taught myself how to be first, how to run, then how to swim, then how to bike. And then I did a triathlon and became somebody who it should have like never been my story. Like it should never have been my story. And in that transformation and that experience of going from somebody who like was categorically against it to being somebody who did it.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (08:18.798)

regularly for years informed a lot about how I understand change sort of writ large, whether it's in an organization or with a person. So sometimes, and what it came down to wasn't like how to run, although I did need to fix my running because I was like messing up my plantar fasciitis, I had to learn Chi running, but that was just like a very easy shift. Chi running was not the

Dr. Amanda Crowell (08:47.886)

I can't, I just cannot. Some people can, I can not. Not that I don't want to, I didn't want to. But it wasn't that, it was that I felt like something about me made it impossible. And we think when you say that to people, they're like, no, I know it's possible. Like in your mind, you're like, I see a world where all the stars align and I could exercise. But we don't think that in the regular world as we currently are, we can do what we wanna do. That's a huge block. If you believe...

that secretly it's not possible, then why would you persevere? Because that's really what we're talking about, right? It's about persevering when it gets hard. Then there's like people will, people like me don't do things like this. People will hate me if I start to do it. People will judge me. People will misunderstand me. If I start exercising, people are gonna think that I'm like on my high horse or whatever. The stories we tell each other and ourselves about what people will say about us when we change, keep us locked in our current situation.

more than almost anything else. You don't wanna change because you don't want the people to turn their back on you. And because we don't say it out loud, we don't discover that nobody really cares whether we exercise or not, you know? Or whatever it is we're trying to do.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:57.321)

Yeah. What kinds of indicators do you, cause that, well, What you're saying really resonates with me on many of the, you, you like, you are the type of person who does this or I don't normally do this and, but then what will people think about me if, I mean, my gosh, make a change in a relationship, make a change in a work, I used to be the drummer in a rock band and now I do productivity stuff. And like, well, what will people say because I used to be in a rock band? band. Like, I mean, so what are the, What do you notice are the indicators that might be what's holding you back?

Dr. Amanda Crowell (10:39.742)

It is what's holding you back first of all. Like it just is. We are all actually, all three of these are at play at some part. Like, Well, so the three are, I don't think I can, people like me don't, and I don't want to. So those are three sort of different things. And when you struggled with something your whole life, all three of them are actively at play. The one that you're talking about, the belonging one, is sort of the header of it, is holding most people back from any change.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (11:06.486)

Like when you just think about the basics of human beings and change, our mind does not want to do something different because we know for sure that the things we've already done didn't kill us last time. So If it didn't kill us last time, it's probably not gonna kill us this time. It's a lot safer and easier just to do what we've already done. And so any little change sometimes, like Let's say that you were like a huge fan of Sex and the City. And then you were like, this new Sex and the City show came out, it's called

and just like that or something like that. And maybe you don't like it, but you don't tell anyone because you are a person who likes Sex and the City. And you've built these bridges with people, you've talked about it, you've worn the t-shirt, you've gone to see the movies, wearing the outfits, right? Like you're a person who likes Sex and the City. You're gonna keep it to yourself if you don't like it just like that. But the truth is like the indicator that it's holding you back a lot.

is if you think, if you're hiding it. if you're like, I'm gonna exercise, but I'm not gonna tell anyone, or I'm thinking about changing my job, but I'm not telling anyone, or I'm telling the one person that I have like in my mind gone through all the things they could say, and they're not gonna say it yet. And if that's happening, right? If you find yourself trying to like change, But not letting anybody see you change, so you can make sure it's safe first? that's just a red flag. It's not a problem. It doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means like,

you're nervous that somebody's gonna, and our feelings, the most vulnerable feelings are the ones that feel uncertain like that, like vulnerability or disappointment or hurt, like those are the hardest feelings to feel, right? If you're angry, you can feel it. You're like, ah, that's good. I don't know how to say it without cursing. Darn you. You know, that we can say anger, we can say, but I'm uncertain that you're gonna still like me,

Dr. Amanda Crowell (13:00.786)

if we don't like the same shows, like is our relationship strong enough for us to talk about Big Bang Theory instead? Like it all sounds so ridiculous. But really, We don't ever want to be rejected by other people. Like that is a real hard thing to face. It's at the core of like so many productivity tips, too. Right. Like how many times I was looking at your program, like how many times have you told people like turn off your email? Don't check your email in the middle of the night. Don't.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (13:28.574)

like check your email in the morning and at night. Like we have all these email rules, like our suggestions for prioritizing email. I don't know what your suggestions are. Those are usually mine. And then people are like, I know that the reason that they're not doing it is because they don't want somebody to say, why didn't you get right back to me? Don't I matter to you? But that's not what comes into our minds, but that is how we feel. Like we don't want people to interpret our behavior as rejecting of them because we don't want them to reject.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (13:56.542)

us, we want to stay in connection, it just matters so much to us. And so we need to just face it and then maybe have a conversation. And usually these things resolve themselves and the blocks no longer there. Now we can walk right through that door. And that's the difference of like, is it really about the tip? Or is it about the way that we are showing up in our lives trying to make change? When we're when we don't know who we are, or what we're worried about, then we're sort of

Dr. Amanda Crowell (14:26.114)

We're locked, but we don't know why? you know?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:28.637)

Yeah. So, and all of these are these seems These are incredibly helpful as far as what's holding you back. And when we were talking about today's episode, we're talking about successfully starting something new. So once you get past the things that are holding you back, what what's next? Amanda, what's the how do you.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (14:50.038)

Well, I like that you think you get past the things that are holding you back. Because you know, yeah, I'm here to crush your dreams. Because actually, always have you ever heard the analogy that we're all going around and around the same mountain, just seeing it from different perspectives, but we're all but we're always still you are still whatever it is that's got you locked up. You're just going to.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:56.159)

It's my dream world. Don't ruin my dream, Amanda. Come on.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (15:17.41)

perceive it at a different level, you're gonna be right back there again. So, but I am gonna answer your question. I'm gonna change shift a little just so that we can see it from a different perspective. So When we think about what it means to do something new, "do something new," we have to start that something new, we have to keep doing that something new when it gets hard and then we have to finish that something new, okay? So it doesn't really matter. Do you wanna pick what it is? Because you have to have an example. We're very particular. We have problems with some things and not others. So what feels like a good example to use?

with these three.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:47.937)

Let's do, you got a good, you got a new assignment at work. Your boss needs you to do something you haven't done before. Hey, I want you, hey Brian, or hey Amanda, I want you to go do this new project initiative that we're taking on.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (16:02.794)

Okay, so like you, we want you to manage the social media for our company or something.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:07.413)

That could work. Yeah, let's run with that.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (16:09.514)

Okay, it has to be something I know something enough about. I mean, it could be like, I want you to be a scrum master, right? I want you to run this Agile project management team. Is that better? Yeah, okay.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:17.961)

That works too. I like both of those. Let's go with the project management example. Yeah.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (16:24.522)

Okay, right, because those are your peeps, right? Okay.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:27.621)

Yeah, little more. There's more project managers listening and project manager and aspiring leaders are generally the many of the folks that are tuning in. So yeah, that's, that's good.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (16:35.838)

Okay, so that's an interesting one because it has to be done at the organizational level, right? Like everyone has to agree to be on a Scrum team as opposed to have somebody managing it from the outside doing like giving them reminders and following up and trying to push the program from the outside, right? So Agile Project Management is like, come to me and I will help you manage your 90-day year or whatever, however you think about it. Ask you what your blockers are, coach you through the process of not falling behind in the first place.

Right? All right, so let's say you have like, all you've ever done is regular project management, pushing from the outside, you're just the reminders guy, send a million emails, you're trying to facilitate communication, you're setting up meetings, whatever. So you have to first feel like you know what it is you're doing. So if you find yourself, this is like the starting, like beginning to do the project, you have to, if you're having a block against it, you might not be.

It might be that you've already taken a program and now you're gonna implement it, you're very excited about it. There is not really a block. But if you are feeling a block, you may ask yourself, like, what is it, like, who were you before? Did you, do you feel like, I could imagine you having like a belonging block around, like, I feel like an outsider and now I'm joining this team, but like, they don't even really want me there. It's a bunch of software designer people and they like, do not care whether I understand their blocks, you know?

So as if that's a belonging block and you have to talk yourself through it, have a conversation with them. You can't have the right conversation till you know what the block is. Hey guys, I know I'm joining your team. I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to tell you what to do. We're gonna try this in a new way. It might feel awkward. Can you tell me if it feels awkward? You have to have that belonging conversation to unlock it so that you can begin the work. You might have other blocks, but let's just stick with that one for now because that's where we started. Then you begin the work.

And now like you're doing something you've never done before. And so We have this bizarre expectation in the West, at least in the U.S., that you can do something perfectly when you've never done it before. But the truth is that you can't do anything perfectly if you haven't done it before. It's just not possible.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:49.553)

I mean, it's so many like A quote the other day about actually somebody about podcasts, and like, if you're just because your hundredth episode is going to be amazing doesn't mean your first one's going to suck any less. And like, so true. Like yes, absolutely.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (19:06.307)

Yeah. Right. So some of this is about the organizational level. Like you have to have an organization that says, hey, this is a beta. This is your first time or they have to give you like a coach or something who can be there to visit co-facilitate with you your first scrum or something like that. But let's either one of those is fine organizationally. But once you're in there, you also have to you have to live in the world. You're actually in when you're starting something new.

In the future, you may be able to like spin up a bunch of like fairy dust and make it look easy and effortless. But When it's the first time you're doing something, it's a whole lot better for everyone on the team if you say like, okay, friends, here we are. We've never done this before. You haven't done it before. I haven't done it before. I've been trained. I'm gonna do my best, but we need to talk about it. And we might stumble. And if you ever feel awkward, I just need you to tell me. That kind of, that's a psychological.

at the core of it, right? Some of it's just communication, but at the core of it, it's a psychological principle called mental contrasting. which is whether you're an individual or a group, If you admit at the outset that things are gonna go wrong, then you are not surprised or shook or worried or upset with each other when those things go wrong. So doing a little mental contrasting from the beginning, I might use the wrong words or I might not understand your process. And if that happens,

What are we going to do about it? That's what you do. You say, what's going to go wrong and how are we going to get around it? So do that as a group. When I misunderstand how quickly something's going to happen for you, because I haven't done your work before and you haven't done mine, how are you going to tell me that so we can stop and actually have the necessary conversation so we can get back on the same page? Now, when I say, well, you can do that in two days. So could you come back with your completed code in two days? The software designers don't go off and burn you in Effigy.

and then work around the clock to get it done and then come back and they're really mad at you, but they never told you that there was a problem with doing it. So some of that mental contrasting is helpful. And then when something does go down, because you can't catch everything ahead of time, otherwise, like things would be a whole lot better, then it's about having the skills. And again, sort of some of the same stuff, but it's about...

Dr. Amanda Crowell (21:27.286)

recognizing and talking about and trying to always ask the question like, what's really happening here? What are we, instead of getting caught up in how it's supposed to be, because you've never done before, so you don't really know how it's supposed to be. All you know is the like fairy tales people spin for you. From there, like, I've done it 100 times, let me give you some advice. And the advice is like so bad because they don't remember at all what it was like the first three times they did it, you know?

Dr. Amanda Crowell (21:55.03)

So I think it's like having those skills and like always bringing it back down to like, what are we hoping to accomplish? What do we, we really just want to get this piece of code launched into the system by this day. So if that's what we're really here to do, then all the rest of this that we're doing so badly, we can just kind of fumble through it and not take it so personally.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (22:19.573)

You know, as I was talking about, or thinking about this, this topic, the, the concept of beginning with the end in mind, right? Like what, what is ultimately where we're trying to, to go, if you focus on the path to get there might not be the path you thought it was at all. But as long as the path is still taking you to the place you wanted to get to, then you will ultimately be successful, even though you're taking a total right turn sometimes and some of the some of the things you're talking about.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (22:51.47)

What's, I think what's hard about that. And I think that like the reason why that isn't a panacea, right, begin with the end in mind, is that so much else is at play when people are working together, you know? So people want to look good while they're doing things. They want this guy, our fictional friend who got this big break to run the Scrum team, like he wants to look like a rock star. He wants these guys to like him. He wants his boss to think he did like a good,

by putting him in this role and he wants it to be the easiest rollout that any piece of software has ever had. And so like that expectation and then these guys brought in on this beta team they have expectations too. Maybe they're mad, maybe they think it worked fine how they were doing it before with their waterfall project management. They were totally fine with that. So what's the problem dude? So like sometimes like it's in that layer.

where starting something new, especially if you're doing it, when you're doing it with just yourself, you can do it with a notebook and like affirmations. When you're doing it with other people, you have to bring some, you have to make, in what an education we call making learning visible, we have to make the conflict, make the situation, we have to make it visible. And then we all have to agree that what we want more than anything is to get to the other side of this with our relationships and our sanity intact.

then let go of some of these other things that we don't even know are driving our behavior. The guy who's on the team and thought waterfall management was fine has been doing it for 50 years. And can we all just stop jumping on trends? That guy, you know, the veteran, we all know that guy. Like saying to him, I know that you hate every minute of this and I'm sorry, but we're doing it. So can we like, can we just pretend for a while? Like, can we be friends long enough to pretend? That kind of stuff is remarkably

Dr. Amanda Crowell (24:50.018)

helpful when a group of people is trying to do something for the first time. Maybe you're right. Maybe it will be bad, but we will not know that until three months from now when we've done our sprint. So can we, can we put our swords down for a minute? And now we're capable of beginning with the end in mind.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:09.181)

Yeah. You know, while you're talking about this, I'm also reminded that one of the biggest holdups that I hear about sometimes is people think, well, I haven't been trained in this thing or haven't had education is this thing that holds people back because they haven't been trained in it. And so there's this, there's this one train of thought that like, just do it, just try it. You won't know until you try like just start, just start. That's the theme.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:39.485)

make sure you get the training and education. And so there are people who do both. There's the people who are like, well, I'm gonna go back and get my master's first before I do this. Or they almost hide behind education. And then there's somewhere in the middle. How do you know what's the right level of education? education? Or is it really just start every time and get the education as you go? What do you say to that?

Dr. Amanda Crowell (26:03.746)

So I'm in an interesting position because I have the terminal degree. I have a PhD. I have a, you know, two bachelor's, two master's and a PhD. All of it. I'm like, oh yeah. But what's interesting is like I took it to its logical conclusion. I got all the possible education and I was still suffering through starting something new. And what I, where I land on that, because you know,

Dr. Amanda Crowell (26:30.294)

But the exact thing I was studying was cognitive psychology. Like how do we actually create our minds and change our minds is actually my area of expertise. How do we change our minds? And so what I've, here's what I, Here's the answer to your question as far as I'm concerned. If people's lives are at stake and it could go horribly wrong, get the education that you need period. I see a lot of like life coaches, no judgment. I'm just saying life coaches.

saying that they're qualified to help people with their trauma and they're not. And you can hurt people with that. OK, so like first and foremost, do not pretend to be a doctor and go and like give people surgery because you're like, I'll just figure it out. No, don't do that. OK, so now we've like we've named that. So Outside of that, out of like in the world that most of us actually live in. Right. Should I go and try Agile project management? Should I write a book?

Dr. Amanda Crowell (27:30.218)

Should I start a blog? Should I exercise? Should I like all the things? I think that you should, for your own sake, depending on the kind of person that you are, you should go learn a little something about it so you see how people talk about it. It's good to know the conversations that you're walking into. I find. That's helpful for me. But after that, instead, the real knowledge that you need is not knowledge, it's not facts, it's skills. right?

You need the ability to recognize you don't know something, ask the right questions, build up enough body of knowledge, move forward, recognize you're now on the edge of what you don't know, ask the right questions, move forward. That's the skillset. Can you develop expertise through conversation and know when you've reached the end? It's like an emergent thing. If you try to know everything before you start it, you can't.

But if you try to do it without knowing nothing, but did I say that right? If you try to do it while knowing nothing, you're also gonna waste a ton of time and people aren't gonna like that. So I think it's that space in the middle that you have to learn how to navigate, which if you have a degree of any kind, you probably have enough skill to read a few books, watch some YouTube videos, and then give something a try. If, you know, especially if that works, someone saw you and thought they could do that. Believe them and give it a shot.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:00.625)

Yeah. I think the, you know, I really like what you said also about the consequences or if somebody's going to get hurt or somebody's lives are at stake, then yes, but otherwise, try it. And I think that's really true is a lot of trying something new is the learning of going through it the first time. And if nobody's lives are at stake or no one's going to get hurt, and there's not a huge financial hardship that would come from,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:29.777)

you're not quite doing it right the first time. I think 90% of the trying something new that people are exposed to are things where there are not consequences. So give it a try. And like you said, you've got now there's AI, you can ask AI, you can look up YouTube videos, you can all the knowledge is out there on the internet. And if you're smart and you've got a college degree, you could probably go learn it. But you don't really know exactly what you need to learn until you start anyway. So it would start to take. Yeah. The wrong course completely.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (29:54.424)

No, you've wasted a lot of time.

Yeah, right. And you're like, I am fully informed about this thing that I will now never use. Well, and let me just say this, the other thing about improvement science that has been hugely helpful for me and all the people that I coach and, you know, it's built into the book is never one of the things that people do that sabotages their success when they're trying something new is they're like, okay, they're like, I would like to write an, and their dream is I would like to write a New York Times bestselling book, but they've never written anything. Right. So they're going

Dr. Amanda Crowell (30:27.15)

their magnum opus? That doesn't sound like a good idea. Why not instead start a blog? Write one blog. It's also about one of the things that is really getting at the right level of something that you, when you think about doing it, you know what to do today. You know what to do this week. You know what you can accomplish in 90 days. Then you're at the space where you can really

Like I would not recommend that somebody go off and fully implement getting things done, the full system of getting things done. Because it's huge, it's enormous, it's massive, it touches every aspect of your life. But you can pick a little part of it and get started on it and discover what there is to know about that piece and then add another piece and then add another piece. So starting much smaller than people think is reasonable is also a sort of magic trick to get a lot further.

a lot faster. You think it's gonna slow you down, but it speeds you up considerably.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:30.377)

Absolutely. It's the bite size thing. You gotta get it. You gotta get it down into do this little piece and then this little piece and that what is that? Oh man, what is it? Oh man, I can't remember who said it. It's the journey of a thousand steps begins. Yeah, wow. There you go. Begins a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step and then yes, start stepping.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (31:48.362)

Well, and if you're standing there thinking about a thousand miles, you're not going to go anywhere. Whereas if you're like, I could take one step, I don't want to, but I could. And then you do. You're like, huh, it wasn't so bad, you know, and then that emerging, what do I do now? What do I do now? What do I do now? Always stays in that manageable space and you don't overwhelm yourself because overwhelm stops you in your tracks for sure.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:12.785)

Yeah. Now, can we, you know, I want to Now let's shift the perspective just a little bit because a lot of what we've been talking about is kind of the employee perspective, right? You are the person doing the work and you're going to start this. Can we shift to the supervisor perspective now? So now you've got a team below you and there's somebody above you that you are reporting to. So now there is, there is somebody above you. You're a mid, you're a mid-level manager somewhere, or you're going to be.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:42.653)

and you've got a team below you and now your team is assigned this something new. How does that change the conversation for you, Amanda? Or does it?

Dr. Amanda Crowell (32:57.038)

I think that the manager, the number one thing that managers need to have in this world where the truth is everything's changing really fast all the time. Every manager's always got a team doing something new. So they have to be managers who are good at what they do, recognize that their team members are human beings. Then they have emotions and egos and worries.

And they've got these three mindsets that can get all tangled up. And they've got these histories with each other. And a manager is, you know, needs to be able to facilitate at the level of the group. So that, and structure things so that there's a humanitarian aspect to the way the team is structured. Like if you are starting something new as the manager, start it as a beta.

The work might not change at all, but calling it a beta will calm people down, make them start doing the mental contrasting work. And if you start every meeting with like, okay, so here's where we are, here's where we're going, how are you guys feeling? Like, what has run, what came up between you? And you know, it's one thing to, I often hear people have these like protocols and they're gonna like start the meeting with this question.

But if you don't mean it, if as the manager, you don't really mean it, if you say, how are you guys doing? And people say, dude, I'm dying. I don't know how to do this. If you don't actually, if you ask them that question, but they can't say that, then you failed at being a humanitarian manager, right? So I think managers need to.

develop their own skillset at the ability to ask people real questions and then handle the answers that they get back. And so there's lots and lots of tips and tricks. I've heard a lot of them on your podcast, right? Like, end your meetings early and ask them about their blockers. And all of those are really good tips. But I think at the core of it as the manager, if you're helping a group of people do something they've never done before, your job is to create a mindset at the group level that is, we don't know how to do this.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (35:19.414)

But you know what, dude, I know you can, but we wouldn't have brought you on this team. I'm asking you to do this hard thing. I'm asking you to trust me to facilitate it. I'm asking you to trust these people, whether you like them or not, that we can cross this finish line together. It might be messy, but we can do it. That's the kind of like, let's not pretend it's gonna be easy. Let's not pretend we're all gonna look like rock stars. If a manager can hold that and block up, protect their people.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (35:47.818)

so that when his boss looks down or her boss looks down on them, they look like rock stars. That's the magic of the manager. They hold the space for the mess here, but they have the reflection up so that the people look good. They might look like a mess, but their boss isn't seeing down into the mess at the team level. If you can do that, then people feel safe enough to really learn how to do something new.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:13.705)

Now, what about all the managers out there? And I mean, I've had them throughout my career and I know many, you listening probably have too. What about the ones that, let's talk about micromanaging a little bit. Like if they've never, I'm having two thoughts actually and I wanna make sure I cover them both. One is the micromanaging and the other is the manager who thinks they need to be an expert on it before their team can do it, right? There's a lot of managers that got promoted because they were really good at doing the job. And...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:43.081)

Yeah, so they're good individual contributor. And so now they've risen to manager. And so the only way they know how to be a rock star is by being an individual contributor. And that's a very different thing. So can we talk about those two for a second? Let's start with the micromanaging. Like, all right, so now things are, it's something new. What's the advice to the manager who's constantly, like there's, when is too much into the weeds, stay out of it, let them do it. And what is not enough like nothing's happening. What's your thoughts on that?

Dr. Amanda Crowell (37:13.086)

Mm-hmm. Well, the interesting thing about what you're saying is that you're really describing a manager doing something new for the first time.

Right? Because they were an individual contributor. Now they got this team and they're like, uh, the only, I can't do six people's worth of work. And that's the only skillset I have is to write amazing, fast, clean code. That's what I know how to do, for example, or whatever they're doing. Sell widgets. So when, so what we were really saying is a micromanager and the, I need to be an expert hyper like running themselves into the ground.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (37:48.458)

manager who's setting a terrible example for work-life balance for everyone else, those are the same person, really. There are people who don't have a skillset to create a team where people can work together because it's a completely different skillset. And they have to learn those skills. That's what they have to do. And it's the same set of things. A manager has to be able to say to their team, like, we're doing this and I'm gonna do my best, but I need you to talk to me. I need you to tell me what you need.

And I need you to tell me, because my tendency, I'll speak for myself when I'm in charge of something, my tendency is to get all up in it. I go all into the weeds. I don't think I'm a micromanager, but I would say I fall on that side, as opposed to the whatever, take the work off their plate. I'm like, we're going to do it together, right? We're going to do it together. And they're like, actually, I was going to do it. And I don't know what you're going to do, because you're the manager. And I'm like, ah. So.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (38:46.918)

That's like, that's a human being having the experience of doing something new and they have to recognize that manager has to recognize that they can't do their employees work and they need their employees to tell them when they, now is that manager, like we all live in the world, right? Like you can't actually say to that person, I need you to develop better people skills if you don't mind. It's like your boss.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (39:12.502)

So instead, like the question is like, what can the person do who has that micromanaging manager? And it's like, you know, it's all the old strategy. You have to manage up, you have to model. If you've got the skills, you're really just in relationship with that person. The hierarchy is an illusion anyways. So if you say to them, hey, I'm...

feeling like our relationship's a little bit strained and you're not sure I can do what you've asked me to do and that makes me feel bad. So can we talk about that? Like, what about this do you need to have your hands on? And what part can I have? And like, how can I communicate that with you? Sometimes it takes the courage to be the one who's not really in a position to manage and just manage up, manage around, try to be the voice for.

transparent communication, try to be the voice that recognizes what mindset block and where it's coming from. That's all any of us can do really, as people are knotted up and tangled and worried and feeling like they're barely surviving and exhausted, everyone's exhausted. Like in those kinds of environments, it's really just people in relationship with each other trying to accomplish a task.

If you can get it back down to that point and communicate about the rest of it, which is a very hard skillset, but a totally doable and workable one, then you can, you can, as the worker bee, transform the hive. If there's an appetite for it, if there isn't, then you may need to go somewhere where there's more of an appetite for it, or seek to be, you know, moved up and have more internal power to transform the hive or whatever. That is your question, I don't know. Felt unsatisfying.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (40:57.213)

Yeah. I mean, I mean, that kind of dove into the micromanaging part of things on, all right, how much is too much and how much is not enough. And for sure, what, what about the, so the, well, In today's day and age, you as a manager are often tasked to do new things, to take on more work, additional work. And you don't, It's not like they ask you when would be a good time.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (41:23.957)

or you to that doesn't exist, right? This is real life is, hey, three more things just hit us and you're gonna take on all three. So what about the, when you're looking at that scenario, the when it's a bandwidth issue or when is a good time or like, what do you say to, how do you be successful at starting something new when bandwidth is already tight? Or you don't. It's not the right time.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (41:54.938)

Mm-hmm. So I might have an unpopular opinion here. here. This might be where like the reality of if you want something to change, you have to change it. If nothing changes, nothing changes. right? And we live in an unsustainable work world. We just do. What you just said is what happens. However, If you say no, that takes a lot of courage and you have to be like in it to win it. You have to be like, I love this company. or I love my mental health or whatever it is that you need to ground down into to say like, if you're the manager of a team and someone comes and wants to put three new projects on your team, but they're already working and they're freaking the frick out, like they can't do anymore, the courage to say, I'm sorry, we don't have the bandwidth for it. It's not possible.

And that's where, and people are like, well, I'll get fired. No, you'll get promoted actually. Because it's the people who know their team, know their company, know their worth, know their work, who are saying like, this isn't possible. We have to do it a different way. Because if you just keep piling it on, we're gonna lose these people. And then we're gonna have even fewer people. And I'm gonna spend all my time hiring. And that's not gonna work. We've got the resources we need. These are the people we need. need. If you...

stress them out, they're going to leave. And then what are we going to do? So no, I won't do it. Now I won't do it. You know, like that's not exactly right, but it's saying like, We can't do it under these circumstances. What do you want to let go? What do you want to slow down? You know, I mean,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (43:38.273)

So that's the really important conversation that I feel like is missed oftentimes. It's easy to just say, well, you should say no. And the way that conversation actually sounds is more like, well, we can't do it right now. because here, let me, I'll never forget, I had a manager, it was a great idea. They had all of the projects that the team was working on listed on a board. on a whiteboard in their office. And so when the boss came in and said, hey, I wanna give you guys this and this and this, They said, we can do that, and cross off the three that we don't have to do anymore so that we can do that. or let me hire or and so that conversation, instead of saying, no, it's kind of more of a, well, not in the current situation, however, tell us how you want to shift it and then leave it up to the upper management. It's not your job to decide that it's ultimately going to be up to them who answer up anyway. So just, I don't know that the yeah.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (44:13.61)

I'm gonna go now. Okay.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (44:34.678)

Yeah. And I think that I think that's right. It is that conversation. And I think it's a conversation where

Dr. Amanda Crowell (44:46.006)

What are the, I think about this most of all at the individual level and how people end up extremely burned out, but teams burn out too, right? And it's like, we are like, I'm a team player, I'll keep giving, I'll keep giving, I'll keep giving. And you start out in the perfect world with like an 80% workload and a 20% buffer for the things that happened that you didn't anticipate. And then it's like, well, you can add this and this and this and you get up to 100% of a workload. And then you're like, well, what, there's nothing left to give, but you're like, but I'll find it. And you...

Dr. Amanda Crowell (45:15.83)

You give up your weekends and you give up your mornings and you give up your afternoon, you give up your middle of the night, you're checking your email. And the reality is that there is an actual bandwidth. And we've given all of our mental health, all of our free time, all of our everything to it. And now you will end up in the hospital. Like you will end up in the hospital and then you won't do anything. You'll be on medical leave.

So it's a system that's like pretending there are no resource problems is not a healthy system. And so when you think about it at the like senior management level, and they're just like, well, just, they're just cracking the whip. Well, then they end up with an unhealthy toxic system where people don't stay and they leave and they have all that churn cost. But if you have actually managers who are like, we wanna have a healthy system. We don't want people to leave. We want our people to be...

at all creative, right? Cause nothing new is coming out of these people if they're this exhausted, then the conversation has to pull back down into 80%. And nobody's gonna do it if every single person in the rank and file or on the front lines is like, well, just keep piling it on. Cause I have to, because I'm afraid, because I don't wanna lose my job because I'm in the hierarchy. You know what I mean? So where, who draws the line?

Well, I'll tell you who draws the line for me, me. I'm not doing it. And that's where we all, I'll be in relationship with you. I'll be on your team. I'll think big about how our team can accomplish this. But will I sacrifice my mental health for this job? I will not. So either fix the system or I'm gone. And that I think is where we actually are right now in the world of work. But we don't have really the skills yet to navigate it, but we're gonna have to have them soon.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:12.049)

Absolutely. And I think this conversation is important, like you said, for me individually, and for me as a supervisor and with a team, like that, it happens at all levels, right? I mean, I talked about my manager who had the whiteboard with the team's things. But then when your boss comes to you individually and says, hey, I need you to take on these three things, you've got your own whiteboard and you point to your whiteboard personally and say, well, here's the 25 other things that I'm working on. So which three would you like me to drop in order to take this on? Because I can't, and so that kind of real conversation, man, definitely it's, I love what you said too, about 80%, like you need to operate at this level so that you can, you do have a little bit of give where you can push it higher, but you can't just run 100% all the time, it's not sustainable, you end up in the hospital. It's true.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (47:48.15)

real conversation is what it is. Cause sometimes you do, you truly do, I did. And I think like the interesting thing about like the whiteboard analogy, is it's like some, we live in such a data-driven world. People are like, if you can point to the data, then you can have what you want. But human beings are not data-driven. And so sometimes the data you need to point to is, I hear what you were saying. I might cry right now, which tells me that I'm extremely exhausted. I have not had a weekend. I have not had...

I have not gone home and watched TV and I honestly cannot take on any more work because I feel terrible. And a good, this is where it all comes together. A good manager can hear that as a data-driven conversation. The data of myself, I'm tired, I can't do anymore. We just ran to meet this deadline that you said was critical. And now you're saying there's another critical deadline. We have to have a break. A manager...

hears that and says, my people are tired, they need a minute. You're not gonna get this next week, you're gonna get it in two weeks and that's just how it is. So it's about like allowing sort of the whiteboard of our emotions and our experiences and our life to be data worth listening to at the team level too.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (49:23.749)

You know, and I think you're alluding to my last question I wanted to ask you was about what does this mean for you personally, Amanda? What's your story? I mean, you seem like you're speaking with a lot of experience with this and you shared earlier about all your degrees and diplomas and that's awesome. But what does this mean for you personally Amanda?

Dr. Amanda Crowell (49:43.55)

Yeah, well, so the history of it is that I got my PhD and was going to be a professor and then decided that was a little too. I work mostly with schools and I really love helping schools make change so that students like I feel like we have all this untapped potential, these students who aren't getting the support that they need. And if they just did like we'd have the answer to every question we need. Right. The information is not what we need. It's always in the implementation.

So that was very powerful to me. I thought, well, let me go work with these schools. And I started doing consulting. And while I was doing consulting, that's a quintessential, you don't understand what my life is like, Amanda. I have 14 clients, they don't talk to each other. They're all, it's all urgent. It has to be done by the end of the school year. And now it's June. Everything has to be done or we're gonna lose all our money. And I was, I totally bought it, hook, line and sinker. I was like okay, I, the kids lives are on the lines. I'm in it to win it. Like I will sacrifice myself. And I did end up in the hospital having like a heart attack that turned out to be a panic attack. And I had to, that's the impetus of really stopping and saying like, this can't be the way. I can't sacrifice myself. The subtitle of my book is do what matters most without sacrificing everything else. Because I started to think you couldn't do both. You couldn't be in it to solve the world's problems and help the world's people and make a difference and make things good and not sacrifice every single part of yourself in order to do it. The Gestalt, the Zeitgeist says that you can't do both. But I discovered in the 10 years or so of like recalibrating my own stance in the world and the way I interact with people and the way I project manage just a lot of productivity stuff, you know, in the book, that actually

you do much better, much more great work when you aren't sacrificing everything else. And we live in a, listen, you've mentioned AI. AI has the common knowledge locked up. It will tell it to you in six sentences flat. How do we do this? Here's how. You can't pretend like that's what we need. So it has to, we have to change the way we understand the human beings relationship to the world of work. Our job is not to be

these factual doers, our job is to manage the flow of information and to be sources of creativity. We can't do that if we're exhausted, miserable all the time. That's what I discovered anyways, is that when I stopped running on fumes all the time, I was able to do everything I ever wanted to do. I built a massive coaching business while still working a full-time job. I wrote a book and I started a podcast and I don't know, like got...

healed my relationship with my family, which I'd gotten deeply stressed. And like, I'm the only person who can say for sure that I did those things, you know, outside of the book, which you could read. But what I know, my lived experience of it is totally different. On the one hand, I was like grasping, you know, like Daffy Duck in the desert, you know, like, I'm, I just don't know the whole of the time. Versus like, I don't know, Roger Rabbit? No, not Roger Rabbit. Who's the rabbit?

Bugs Bunny, Bugs Bunny, who's like jazzing it up wearing like, you know, like a big hat.

You know, I'd rather be Bugs Bunny. I don't need to be all exhausted in the desert anymore. And everything I wanted, the way that I work, the work that I do is much better. People like working with me more. I get way more opportunity, way more money. It's drastically changed my life, which is why I wrote the book. You know, like I was like, let me help people understand how to do this. But it takes a big leap. People don't believe you. But then you write a book and then they read it and they try it and then they believe you.

So give it a shot is my point. That's what it means to me, Brian.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (53:43.777)

Total. Give it a shot, man. I well and it is the when you reach. Unfortunately, many people have to go all the way to the breaking point to actually recognize that something's got to change. Something's got to give and that something isn't just turning off your email at four o'clock every day. That's a piece of it. You're right. All that knowledge is I mean AI could probably solve all your problems if you actually did what it said anyway.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (54:23.254)

Yeah, Great Work is the main title. Here it is. Ta-da, it's also on the wall back there. Do what matters most without.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (54:27.093)

Got it. She's holding up the image. Very cool. Yeah. I will. I'll keep the, I'll drop the link in the comments for you of your episode for sure. So they can find it. And now if folks want to keep in touch with you, where's the best place? What are the best ways?

Dr. Amanda Crowell (54:40.69)

I would boogie on over to my website, which is amandakroll.com. I'm sure that'll be in the show notes too. And just sign up for the email list. I send an email usually once a month, sometimes twice a month, depending on if there's an ad, like an event or something. Um, that's how, and you can listen to the podcast and read the book, read the book, book. That's the thing to do. Um, and I want, is it okay? I just wanted to say one thing about what you said about, like, we don't want people to get to the breaking point. Before they actually start making a change. I've heard you say this on the podcast a few times, your podcast, this one. I say this, this is what I say about that. Sometimes it's hard not to do it if you haven't hit the breaking point. Here's what I would say, accept that you've hit the breaking point because everybody feels like they have. I can't do this anymore, they say. Right, yes, because I'm here. Let that be your breaking point. Don't go to the hospital. Just be like... my kid's mad at me for missing their birthday. Let that be the breaking point. Let it turn you around. It's just a choice in your mind to do that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (55:46.473)

Yeah. That's a, that's a powerful one that you're already at the breaking point. If you're, if you're hearing this and you're wondering if you're at the breaking point, that's actually breaking point. Gosh, so much. Absolutely. Well, Amanda, here's what I love. I love that because of you hitting the breaking point, you now have this book and you've continued to do all of this work and you're sharing this awesome knowledge. You and I are very much aligned on these, these ideas. I think we agree more than we disagree on a lot of these things. And I, and I, so it's an absolute, I feel like you and I can continue talking for hours and we can't, we're not going to do that to you listening, but it is such a treat to have you. Thank you very much for, for joining us today and for sharing some of that. And I hope that you do check out the book and check out great work and think about the great work you can be doing. If you recognize that you're already at your breaking point, that's powerful.

Dr. Amanda Crowell (56:43.478)

There you go. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (56:45.429)

So, Amanda, I love that. And for you tuning in, two quick opportunities for you. The first one is if you have a friend or colleague who is at that breaking point or also is looking to start something new, because that's what we talked about today. If you've got a colleague who's interested or hitting that point, if you would share this episode link to this one specifically with them. I know Amanda and I would both love that because we're really interested. This, a lot of times it's great to say, hey, check out Productivity Gladiator the show or something, but it's also the conversation that happens when you send someone an actual episode is a really cool connection that gets to happen where you can talk about that and you can actually bond with that person. And I personally, I love that. I do that with people all the time. And so that's my invitation to you listening is certainly send, I know Amanda and I both would love if you would send this to a friend or colleague who you think would benefit from this. And thank you so much for.

subscribing to and liking subscribing the comments and stuff. I read them all. And if you want, I also have an email list, so I'll get Amanda's email list and my email list in the comments of this thing so that you can join because I definitely send out those emails as well. So I love sharing Predictivity Gladiator with you. That's a wrap.

Email Overload? No More! Reclaim Your Inbox With These Underutilized Hacks & Tactics

Drowning in emails? This is your life raft. Discover the shockingly simple 4D system for inbox mastery and the little-known hacks top performers use to never miss an important email and stay on top of tasks. Listen now, so you can close your inbox with confidence.

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The Audio/Podcast

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Links to References In This Episode

• The “Done With You” Email course Brian mentioned, is available as part of the Productivity Gladiator monthly membership. It’s like a monthly Starbucks for your professional development. This special introductory offer will never be available again. By getting in now you’ll be grandfathered in to all of the future upgrades, content, and tiers.

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Episode Digest

Reclaim Your Inbox!

Email is the biggest productivity drain of the modern workforce. We're all drowning in a never-ending deluge of messages, requests, and digital noise clogging our inboxes. But what if there was a simple way to cut through the chaos and achieve the mythical "inbox zero"?

The answer lies in adopting a systematic approach to email management. By implementing a few core principles and key strategies, you can kiss inbox overwhelm goodbye and operate from a distraction-free zone of productivity.

The Necessity of Inbox Zero

“If you’re bad at email, then you’re probably also bad at coming through on things that I ask you for and taking care of things on your to-do list.”

While some argue that an empty inbox is optional, the reality is quite different. As the anecdote about the overflowing maintenance inbox illustrates, an unprocessed inbox is a leading indicator of dropping balls and missing commitments:

"If you don't have a really well developed system and you don't get to zero emails in your inbox once a day, I've got a system for you...Because if you're bad at email, then you're probably also bad at coming through on things that I ask you for and taking care of things on your to-do list."

Top performers excel at email processing precisely because it's the gateway habit to responsiveness and accountability on all fronts. Aiming for "just a few" emails is settling for subpar follow-through.

The 4D System: One Core Underlying Process

At its core, mastering email demands implementing a simple 4-step decision matrix for every single message that hits your inbox:

1. Deal with it - If it can be done in under 2 minutes, respond immediately and archive.

2. Delegate it - If it's someone else's responsibility, forward accordingly with a follow-up reminder for yourself if needed.

3. Defer it - If it requires longer action, capture it in a task list or snooze it, then remove it from your inbox.

4. Delete it - If it provides no further value, delete or archive it.

“You have to delete or archive it out of your inbox once you reviewed it and there’s nothing left to do with it.”

"You have to delete or archive it out of your inbox once you reviewed it and there's nothing left to do with it."

Processing each email through this consistent 4D workflow is the golden key to inbox zero. Coupled with a cadence of tackling your inbox in bursts 3-4 times per day, your backlog will rapidly become a fading memory.

5 Turbo-Charged Email Hacks

Of course, true email mastery extends beyond the 4D method alone. Here are 5 powerful email-optimizing tips from the pros:

1. Send & Archive Button - Configure a shortcut to simultaneously send your reply and archive the original thread from your inbox.

2. Schedule Send - Delay email delivery for optimal sending windows to boost response rates and avoid training recipients to expect 24/7 availability.

3. Snooze Emails - Leverage snooze functions to temporarily remove emails requiring future action until the appropriate date/time.

4. Use Templates - Create saved templates for frequently sent messages to streamline composing.

5. Close Your Inbox - Also disable notifications. You want that inbox CLOSED until you choose to open it later.

"I want nothing. Close your email. And if you're really bad about this, I can already say this is probably gonna be like trying to quit cigarettes."

The Bottom Line

For too long, we've labored under the false belief that digging out from inbox insanity is an epic, endless struggle. But as you can see here, a simple shift in mindset and habits is all it takes to permanently shed that productivity succubus.

No more opening your email app with dread, scrambling to catch up on a backlog spanning weeks or months. Just a pristine, zen-like inbox awaiting your orders each morning. That's the power of inbox zero - reclaiming control over your priorities and attention. It's time to rise as the email ninja you were born to become.

“Close your email. And if you’re really bad about this, I can already say this is probably gonna be like trying to quit cigarettes.”

CAN I TEACH YOU EMAIL, THE RIGHT WAY?

This episode was full of great information, and is only about a third of the lessons and information I teach you in the Email Course! It’s a part of the Productivity Gladiator Membership. I’ll share my screen, give you visuals, and walk you through the information I’m teaching.

There’s so much more included too! The new monthly membership is like a monthly Starbucks for your professional development. This special introductory offer will never be available again, come join now, and you’ll be grandfathered in to all the future content, tiers, & enhancements.

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares hacks and tips exclusively for his email subscribers. As more opportunities come up with the membership, you’ll be the first to know about these news courses and areas of education. Sign up to start receiving these tips!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. Graduates of Productivity Gladiator training wield time management & life balance superpowers, activate a laser-guided ability to focus & prioritize, and implement a sniper-precise approach to task & email management. If what you’ve seen or heard here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:01.286)

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer, and on this show, I talk about personal, practical, productivity skills. This is a knowledge drop episode where I just wanna share tips and hacks for you, and today it's about inbox to zero, the why, and the two, yes, only two things you need to do to hit inbox to zero, and I'm gonna share some of my favorite email hacks with you. So let's get into it. And by the way, this is my big news also.

is that my training, my productivity gladiator training, which used to be exclusively available to businesses is now available directly to you. You can join the productivity gladiator membership through the website and access my online learning portal. And here's what that means. On the show, On this show right now, this is DIY or do it yourself. What I mean by that is I'm gonna tell you about it and then you're gonna go figure it out on your own.

and the episode's gonna have some top tips, but there's not time for me to share everything. With the membership, that's now DWI, or done with you. What I mean is I now have a course where I'll share my screen, I'll show you exactly what to do, and you can do it with me in real time. I also can construct the lessons in a way that you'll get it about three times faster.

and the impact and retention is more than twice as big. The online learning platform is awesome. And this course is the cat's meow. I love teaching this course to businesses and now you can have it too. So not just the knowledge drop episodes, by the way, but Over the coming months, I'm gonna be releasing all of the productivity gladiator training that I've been giving to businesses and even more new trainings that I have in store. I am so excited about this.

So Right now you can take advantage of a special introductory offer that it will never be this inexpensive again. But if you're willing to take a chance on me, now you'll get that introductory price and I'll keep adding even more content and features and tiers and all of that. and you'll be grandfathered in because you started with me now. So It's seriously exciting times for me and for productivity gladiator. So let's jump into email. So email inbox to zero. Is it,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:29.794)

necessary? You know, I used to say no to this. Maybe it's not necessary. And then the longer I do this, the longer I teach this stuff, the more that I think that, no, it's not necessary. That's actually a cowardly answer. So I want to correct the record right now. And I want to say, yes, I do think it's necessary. Not all the time, not every time you're in there, but I think Once a day.

which for me, I clear out either at the beginning or the end of the day, most often once a day, I think you should get to zero. And I have a reason for this. so I'm gonna explain. Why it's necessary, let's talk about that. What I wanna do is I wanna share you a story. This is why I think YES it is necessary. I used to... work in an apartment building office. And this is back when maintenance and account requests were made by paper.

So instead of email that you're used to, they came in with paper. I worked at the front desk and I used to write up these tickets for the residents or the people that came in and I would drop them in the staff's inboxes whenever they came in. Ashley was my GM at the time and she processed everything in her inbox. Her inbox was cleared out every day. Greg was the maintenance supervisor and

he left all of his requests in his inbox and it was always stacked high. I'm talking like at least a foot tall. There was so many requests in Greg's inbox. Sue was one of the most, probably the most demanding residents that we had at the apartment complex. She

frequently. She was one of those people that shared everything that she thought, you know, and she had requests for both Ashley and Greg regularly. And, oh, she was a ranter and she loved to talk. So she would call me up the front desk and she would rant and rave wondering why her request hadn't been handled yet. But at the same time, she talked my ear off. It wasn't just the request. You know, people like Sue probably, right? She, she would tell me about the request and then

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:48.014)

all of her other problems. I knew Sue's life story. You know, this is, so Ashley was on top of her requests. She was, Sue was always calling to follow up on the maintenance requests and never called for anything that Ashley needed because Ashley took care of it. So now, you know, I've told this story before and one of the things I've heard is, well, you know, maintenance requests.

there's more maintenance requests and they take longer than the GM requests. Well, here's the deal. We had a sister property and I knew the front desk guy over at the sister property, same size apartment complex, same situation, but he had the situation in reverse. His GM was terrible about getting to her inbox and processing the things in her inbox and his maintenance guy was on it and he had all of it taken care of.

So they had exactly the opposite situation where they had a resident like Sue, and Sue was always calling because their GM over there who didn't process their inbox wasn't it. So it wasn't the fact that my property had more maintenance requests. It was that handling the inbox was a big indicator. And I equate, this story was about physical inboxes, but email inboxes,

are kind of the same thing. So I equate them, have you heard of a gateway drug? Maybe this is a bad comparison for a podcast, but I think of this as email as kind of a gateway indicator. Meaning if you're bad at email, then you're probably also bad at coming through on things that I ask you for and taking care of things on your to-do list. I'm probably gonna have to follow up with you. You know those type of people that I'm describing.

in working with those people, it's a challenge. They're probably not gonna get it done the first time. And I look at this as a gateway indicator. So I want your gateway indicator to be at zero. Now, top performers, let me equate this to work, right? Top performers, the people who you would want to work with, they have a well-developed system to process and manage their email. They get back to you on those emails. I'm a really senior project manager and I often have some say.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:12.79)

within the organization as to who I pick to be on my team for these projects or programs that I'm taking on. So who do I pick? It's the Ashley's, not the Greg's. It's the GM who does her inbox, not the facility manager who doesn't. Those are the people, those people with that well-developed system, and the people who get back to me are the ones that I pick. Now, I've also been teaching this for a long time, and man, here's the other thing that I hear a lot.

but a few is okay, right? I've had some people tell me that a few emails is okay, and you might be one of those people. I've got, you'll say things like, oh, I've got only 100 or only 50. Ooh, look, I've only got 27. And it becomes this thing where I've got less than the other person. And if you're one of those people, how many is it? What is okay? What's that number? I think it's

zero. I teach people to get to zero. But I know you might disagree with me. And so I want to provide my answer back in the context of that story about Greg and Ashley, right? I've got Ashley, the GM, Greg, the facility manager. Now, if you were me and you answered the phone for our good friend Sue, who had all kinds of problems and the nightmare lady Sue calls and she has a request.

You're me, you write up that request, you walk to the two inboxes, they're side by side by the way, Greg's and Ashley's inboxes were right next to each other on the desk. You have Ashley's inbox that has no emails in it, and or Ashley's inbox, there's no requests and Greg's that's overflowing. Which one do you think will be the one that doesn't have Sue call me and follow up and say,

What's the status on my request? Why haven't I heard anything? And multiple phone calls. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna hear about Sue's cat and how she has smelly cat breath problems and why her daughter doesn't come to visit Sue anymore. And like the whole life story, I'm gonna get multiples of these phone calls. So if you're me, now, if you're in that situation, zero and a bunch is an easy question, but Now let me ask it to you this way.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:40.198)

If you Imagine there's three requests already in Ashley's box instead of the zero.

If you were me, would your confidence go down just a little bit that you might get at least a phone call from Sue because you're wondering what's going on? How many is too many? Same question you just asked me about email, right? If you walk up to that inbox and there's five or maybe there's 10 requests already in the inbox, how about 20? How about 50? What's the number that gives you?

If you're me, what's the number that gives you the highest confidence that you're going to put that request in there and you're not going to end up getting multiple phone calls from Sue following up on what you asked or what she asked. That's the scenario that we're in. In my experience in that real life, in this real life story, the number is if it was more than three requests and Sue's inbox, that meant I was probably going to get.

at least one phone call from Sue. And if there were 10 or more requests sitting in Ashley's inbox, that meant that Sue was gonna be calling me at least twice and I was gonna have two great phone calls with Sue. So.

I stand confidently and say that I believe that a few isn't good enough. For me, and I'm a teacher at this, I'm going to teach you to get to zero. Not some, not a few, not less than a hundred. I'm going for zero. And I hope that you set that as your goal too. Because I don't want anyone you work with to have to listen to not one additional phone call from Sue.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:37.15)

And that means you should clear out your inbox. So here's the bottom line. If you don't have a really well developed system and you don't get to zero emails in your inbox once a day, I've got a system for you. I've been teaching it for years. Please let me teach you. I love this. This would bring me so much joy. So now let's get to the topic for today, which is how do you get to zero? And then those hacks I was talking about. Here's how you get to zero. This is gonna seem real simple.

And here's how it works. It is the four Ds. Deal with it, delegate it, defer it, and delete it. So deal with it. I'm gonna go through them real quick. You look at the emails that come in, look at the first one, deal with it. If it takes less than two minutes, just reply to that email real quick, it's something quick, reply to that email. Deal with it, and then archive that message or delete it out of your inbox. Next up, delegate it.

If it's not for you, maybe this email is for someone else, then delegate, send that email to whoever it is that needs to take care of that. And maybe you need to schedule a reminder for yourself to follow up with that person, but get it out of your inbox. Third, defer it. If it's gonna take more than two minutes, or you can't do anything with it now, more than two minutes means, meaning your response is gonna take more than two minutes.

Maybe that goes on a to-do list. It's a full, it's a paper, it's something long that you have to, it's not just replying to the email, it's an actual task that you need to do. That might go on your to-do list or somewhere else and it goes out of your inbox. Or if you can't do anything with it now, meaning let's say it's like, for example, a request, hey, we credited back your account. If you don't see the credit in five business days, then let us know. Well, then you're gonna defer it.

to another time and I'll talk about snoozing an email later. That's a trick for you. So deal with it, delegate it, defer it, or delete it, or archive it as the last one. You delete it out of your inbox. Now here's the kicker, and this is the one, this is the step that many people miss, which is You have to delete or archive it out of your inbox. once you reviewed it and there's nothing left to do with it. So here's how this works. Deleting it, Imagine,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:57.854)

an email is a piece of paper. paper. You're going to read that piece of paper and then at the end, you're gonna delete it. If you're gonna delete it, that means you're gonna put it in the trashcan. The trashcan is gonna go out to the curb and eventually the trash guys are gonna take that trash away and that email will be gone forever. That's deleting it. However, in Outlook and Gmail and...

all of the email systems they have a way to archive it. Or maybe it's creating a folder that says archive if you don't. But I know Gmail and Outlook both have archive functionality or a folder that says archive. If you archive the message, that means you get it out of your inbox. And imagine take that same piece of paper and you walk out the back door and you leave it in the swimming pool out back. It's covered swimming pool, it's not gonna get wet. The email will be fine there.

The email systems now have a way for you to search through that swimming pool. If you ever need to find that email message again, it's going to be there. It's in the archive and the search capability is awesome these days. So archiving your emails is the way to get them out of your inbox. If you're done with them, that's the step that a lot of people have been missing. Maybe that's you. So if you're listening and you have a boatload of emails in your inbox,

Start right now and set aside some time to do the four Ds on your email inbox. And then when you're done with those emails, archive them out of your inbox. They're still there. You can still get back to them, but archive them. Get them out of there. And how long do you archive? I'd say two to four weeks. Generally, if an email has been sitting there for more than two to four weeks, if it's something that somebody needed from you, they will probably be sending you another

email follow-up for it. So I say two to four weeks is a rough, whatever's good for you. Don't lock into those dates, but go back and once you hit two to four weeks, archive everything out of your inbox. That'll get you to zero. Now, email hacks. I've got five email hacks that I want to share with you. The first one's a little one. This is the send and archive button in Gmail. If you didn't know this is a thing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:19.254)

Go in the settings in Gmail and enable this button in settings. At the bottom of the message, there's a button that says send and archive. You can reply to a message and then hit send an archive and it sends the message and it archives the email immediately. That way you can always refer back to it later if they reply back to your email, but it's not sitting in your inbox anymore. So Send and Archive, that button is magic. I love it.

Number two, schedule Schedule-Send your emails. Please, there are two reasons this is super important. The first one is you don't want people to think that you work late. So if you send email messages at 10 p.m., 11 p.m., are you one of the bosses or supervisors that might be working some late hours? And then you send that email and it hits your staff's inbox and you even tell them in the message,

Don't worry about replying this tonight. Just let me know when you get in tomorrow. You're still setting the precedent as the supervisor that you're working way late. late. And that's not a good reputation for you to have because it sets the expectation, whether you mean to or not, that you work late. You're on late, you're getting emails after hours. So you don't want other people to have to respond late.

and you don't want people, it's unfair that they would email you and think that you're going to reply at 11 p.m. on a Saturday night. So if you are sending an email, schedule send that email to be the next business morning. You can do this in Outlook and Gmail, figure out how to do it. In Outlook, it's just called delay delivery. You can set that up that way. But this is a valuable skill for that. And

you don't want to set that expectation that you're expecting a response late. Or if you are, that's just it's a much better plan. And here's the other bonus to this. You can control when it hits their inbox because I don't know about you, but to me, if I email people on the weekends, the odds of them getting back to me, unless I already know that they're really on top of their email,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:40.598)

The odds went down by 50%. If it hits their email on Friday afternoon or Saturday afternoon, they just might get buried in the email, the weekend emails, they might not get back to me. So, you can plan when that email is gonna hit their inbox and schedule send it for Monday morning at 7 a.m. so that it's at the top of their email inbox. And what are the odds you're gonna get the response you need faster? It's that. So schedule send.

For the love of Pete, folks, this schedule send your emails is such an awesome thing. So make sure that you're taking advantage of that capability with email. Next up, number three, Snooze your emails. Gmail and Outlook online have this capability. And so imagine.

you have something that comes in that needs some sort of credit, right? Maybe like the example I shared earlier with a credit, some of the vendor emails you and they say, hey, I've credited your account. You should see that credit in three to five business days. Well, now that it's on you to get back to them in three to five business days. and if you haven't seen the credit, you're gonna have to respond to that email and let them know I did not receive the credit.

So by snoozing your email, that very same email is going to drop, pop right back up in the top of your inbox, three to five, whenever you schedule it for it will come right back at that time. And by snoozing that email, that's going to allow you to, it's going to be such an awesome way for you to stay right on top of whatever that thing is, because it's going to come back right when you need it to come back.

So Snoozing is available on Gmail. It's on Outlook online. Some of the desktop versions of Outlook, I haven't seen where they have the snooze capability yet. So to be honest, I've started experimenting with just using the online version because it has snooze. Or there's other ways you can do it. You can set up something on your to-do list. There's ways to snooze your emails or trigger them so that they come back at the right time. But regardless, snoozing your emails is a skill that I want you to have.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (20:55.262)

for your personal and your work email. Make sure you have a way to do that. Follow up then is another one that you'll see. All this stuff is in the course that I share. Man, I go into a lot more detail about this. But snooze your emails. Number four, Use templates. This is something in Outlook and in Gmail and in many systems, do you send the same email over and over again? Or are you on a team who sends the same emails?

Make it in a template? Or better yet, do you have a bunch of information that you always wanna put in the bottom of an email? This is something that happens with the programs that I'm in. If I'm responding, I'm gonna want them to have the link to the program, the link to the information on instructions on how to use something. I wanna provide them with the same information over and over again. So you can hit a template and then you can modify the email after you...

initiate the template, but it will go ahead and knock out some of those, the language that you need in the template. You're going to have it there already. So man, templates are awesome for email. And then number five, close your inbox and no notifications when you are not in your email. Are you one of those people that leaves your email open while you're working?

You leave it up on a screen on one side or, you know, by the, by the way, this is true of Microsoft teams or Slack. If you leave those open on a screen to close those, because unless your job is working at a support center where it's your job to reply to emails, then why do you leave your emails open? Here's what I hear. This is what people tell me. Well, what if my boss emails or what if something urgent comes in then what would happen then I'd be then I would miss it when it comes in you know if you were in a two-hour in-person meeting without your computer and you didn't get back to your boss until the end of that meeting would that be would that have been okay would that be okay and if that's the case for you in your role then I think you could probably close your email to focus on the productive things you need to be focused on. So does your job description have a requirement for how long it takes for you to reply to emails? That's a place to start at how frequently you can be checking your inbox. But ultimately, what I wanna do here is I wanna give you some confidence that you can close your email and be productive and come back and check it regularly. And...

Here's the other thing. You're closing your email, you're closing Teams or Slack, and there are no notifications guys. None. No notifications. No red numbers popping up. No dings, no pop-ups, no vibrations. I want nothing. Close your email. And if you're really bad about this,

I can already say this is probably gonna be like trying to like quit cigarettes or something. And I've only heard this, I've never been addicted to cigarettes, but they all tell, oh my gosh, you're gonna close it and then at first, then you're just gonna wanna, you're just gonna be thinking about it. And you're like, oh, I need a hit. Let me just check that inbox real quick. Just a puff, just let me get a puff. You're gonna do it.

Here's what I think. I think a healthy relationship with email is four times a day. I think that's the sweet spot for a working professional on how often you're checking your email and responding. So early to mid morning, before lunch, mid afternoon, and before you sign off for the day, those are the four times that I try to check my email and reply back to anything that needs a reply to. And by the way, if stuff comes in that is going to take longer than the two minutes, like you're going to need to get back to that person, you can reply back and say, “Hey, I'm not going to be able to get this to you right now, but it should be coming soon,” or acknowledging receipt of this, or something like that. You can acknowledge it and then copy that to your to-do list or put that somewhere else and archive that email out of your inbox.

So three quick things to close out here. First, we covered a lot here. Please try some of these things. Try the 4Ds. Archive and delete emails after you're done with them.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:38.286)

Try schedule send. Try some of those on your emails. Snooze your emails. Investigate that. How does your system do snooze? Can you snooze? Google that. Find out. Use templates. If you haven't used templates, Google it to see how your system does templates because there's YouTube videos and resources out there for that. And lastly, close your inbox for productivity. So that's first. We reviewed all those, some of those things and more. Please review those.

Second thing. If you have a friend or colleague who has a boatload of emails in their inbox, copy the link to this episode into a text message. Not an email, by the way, because after everything we just talked about, don't we know how that's going to turn out if you email it to them? So send a text to them, to the friend or colleague, and make sure you start with something nice. Don't talk about how much you appreciate them or something like that.

And perhaps you can mention that you were thinking about this kind of training for the team. And what do they think about it? That way you're not accusing them of being terrible with email because that text message isn't going to go over well. But I hope you try that and give that a shot. That way they think they know that you're not calling them out specifically.

And then lastly, That was five email hacks and just a quick primer. The online course I told you about that's part of productivity gladiator membership. It is my magnum opus. You proud of me? That was a big word. I use a big word there. Magnum opus. This is the whole kit and caboodle. It is all the hacks. It's all the productivity tips. It's a full onscreen demo walking you through the four D's and everything that I covered. Rules and filters. There is so much in that course and I love it. It's all of it. So Check it out if that's something that I can help you with.

If this is something that your team or your workplace could use this kind of training, please connect with me. I've been into so many organizations to teach this training and it's such, for me, I have fun. I love, love, love talking about being productive with email this way. So I would love to empower you and the people in your group to be way better at email. So thanks for the likes, thanks for the follows, the subscribes, the reviews, and the comments on the social media posts about this stuff. I love sharing Productivity Gladiator with you. That's a wrap.

The Difference Between Good vs. GREAT Leaders: A Deep Dive - with Sara Canaday

Leadership Strategist Sara Canaday joins Brian and shares insights on the key differences that turn a good leader into a great one. Unlike vague general leadership training, this conversation is specific for a change, delving into what a good leader and a great leader would do in the same situation, to unlock their team's potential and become truly memorable leaders.

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The Audio/Podcast

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Links to References In This Episode

• Sara Canaday’s LinkedIn Profile

• Subscribe to Sara’s Newsletter

• Sara Canaday’s Courses on LinkedIn Learning

• Sara Canaday’s Books, on Amazon

• Book Brian mentioned, Strengths Based Leadership

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Episode Digest

We all know the basics of good leadership - meeting targets, maintaining an efficient team, delivering results. But what propels a leader from merely good to truly great? What’s gives them the elusive "X-factor" that inspires unwavering loyalty and leaves a lasting legacy. Sara and Brian dove in.

““It’s one thing to just pass on information, but a great leader actually brings that vision to life.””

— Sara Canaday

Great leaders educate rather than just inform.

"It's one thing to just pass on information, but a great leader actually brings that vision to life."

Actionable Takeaway: Use creative methods like props, analogies, visuals, and stories to make ideas tangible and relatable when communicating with your team. Don't just relay information - vividly illustrate the "why" behind decisions and initiatives.

A great leader is a talent cultivator, not just a task distributer.

"A great leader actually matches those team members with the skills that they're not only good at, but that inspire them."

Actionable Takeaway: Have one-on-one conversations to understand each person's unique interests and motivations. Then deliberately assign projects and responsibilities that leverage their strengths while providing growth opportunities in areas of passion.

Foster an environment of open dialogue and critical thinking.

"What are we missing here?" "What would make you more comfortable with this strategy?"

Actionable Takeaway: Resist providing just the answers. Ask thought-provoking questions that challenge assumptions and invite diverse perspectives. Make your team meetings a psychologically safe space for candid input.

Be a connector and developer of people.

"A great leader is so well connected themselves. They've worked hard enough on their own network that they can now share it with you."

Actionable Takeaway: Actively connect your team members with other experts, mentors, training opportunities and experiences that can accelerate their professional growth and career aspirations. Share your own networks liberally.

Display entrepreneurial spirit and vision.

““A great leader is so well connected themselves. They’ve worked hard enough on their own network that they can now share it with you.””

— Sara Canaday

"They're asking questions on a broader scale...Why do we always do it this way? What if we stopped doing this altogether?"

Actionable Takeaway: Don't just maintain the status quo. Challenge existing processes and ways of thinking, and provide potential alternatives. Inspire your team by posing bold "what if" questions that spark innovation and positive disruption.

Be situationally fluent and highly self-aware.

"Can they read the room? Can they sense that they're going a little too much in the weeds? Can they sense the conversation needs levity?"

Actionable Takeaway: Continuously work on developing emotional intelligence. During meetings and interactions, make it a habit to pause, read verbal and non-verbal cues, and adjust your style and approach as needed to optimally connect with your audience.

The path to great leadership is challenging but rewarding. It requires a steadfast commitment to inspiring and developing others rather than just completing tasks and hitting numbers. By embodying these qualities, you become a leader who doesn't just meet expectations, but one who leaves a lasting impact on your teams and your organization.

The choice is yours - strive for good or strive for great? Embrace these strategies to unlock your ultimate leadership potential.

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Today’s Guest

Sara Canaday
Leadership Strategist, Speaker,
and Award-Winning Author

Sara Canaday is a leadership consultant, speaker and author who helps companies maximize the contributions of their leaders and high potentials for bottom-line impact. Drawing on 13 years of corporate experience, Sara has a unique gift for connecting with her clients and ensuring they walk away with actionable strategies for positive change -- strengthening leadership skills, improving business relationships, and enhancing performance. 

Sara is a member of the National Speakers Association and a by-invitation only leadership instructor for LinkedIn Learning. She has been featured in a number of publications, most notably Forbes, Entrepreneur Magazine, and The Wall Street Journal.

Sara is the author of three books, You – According to Them: Uncovering the blind spots that impact your reputation and your career, the award-winning book, Leadership Unchained: Defy Conventional Wisdom for Breakthrough Performance, and her latest book, Essential Coaching Skills for Managers: The Tools You Need to Ignite Greatness in Each Employee.

Website: saracanaday.com

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/saracanaday

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. These Gladiators wield email management superpowers, a laser-guided ability to focus, samurai-grade prioritization skills, a sniper-precise task tracking approach, Jedi time management skills, and a secret sauce for maximizing their personal life balance. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:03.818)

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. On this show, I talk about personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, we're examining the top characteristics that make people brag about their bosses, not just tolerate them. I wanna dive into the difference between good and great when it comes to leadership. And with me on the show today is Sarah Canaday. She is a leadership strategist, a speaker, and an author on this topic exactly. Sarah, thanks so much for being here on the show today.

Sara Canaday (00:33.332)

Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to a good conversation.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:37.11)

Absolutely. And now for those folks who might not be familiar with you and your work, talk about you and your relationship with our topic today.

Sara Canaday (00:45.524)

Yeah, so, you know, I'm very familiar with the work world, started like many people, you know, with an entry-level position and worked my way up the corporate ladder, if you will, and spent about 14 years altogether in banking and insurance, you know, very sexy industries. But yeah, that's where I sort of, you know, built my chops, so to speak.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:06.462)

Yes. That's sexy.

Sara Canaday (01:14.936)

moved in sales operations, had a stint as an organizational development manager, which is the part of the work that I really loved, and always straddled between operations and the human side of the organization. HR, organizational development, leadership development, that sort of thing. And then had the opportunity to

leave and start my own boutique leadership and career acceleration firm. And have been doing that now for gosh, 16 plus years.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:54.627)

So clearly lots of experience in this. You know, one thing I love to ask is what would you say makes you different from, well, there's a lot of people out there who teach leadership. This isn't a new concept. So like what, what makes Sarah different? in this department?

Sara Canaday (02:08.096)

Well, and I don't mean this to sound spiteful or negative, but I think there are a lot of people out there that are teaching leadership based on theory and not necessarily having been leaders themselves. So they could be academics, researchers, but they haven't necessarily led every level of employee from entry level, I started as a supervisor.

Sara Canaday (02:37.664)

had entry-level people reporting to me. Then I went on to being a senior manager, then a director, then an assistant vice president, then a vice president. So I think the experience is what gives me an edge. And now I think what gives me an edge is that I'm constantly talking to and working with leaders, right? Because I have to stay relevant. I have to stay in the know. Because what could have been a challenge

15 years ago may not be a challenge today, right? And I think we know that that's most likely the case. There are a whole set of challenges that I would have never expected when I was leading.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:50.698)

What are those top characteristics? And so I'm sure for you, there were probably some things that came to mind right off the bat, just on this one. So what were those things that came, immediately came to mind for you on this?

Sara Canaday (04:03.092)

Yeah, well, I don't think we can argue that things like performance and producing things on time within budget, the numbers count, right? The numbers count for leaders. That's an expectation. But nowadays, it's a little bit like table stakes. And that's from both perspectives, from the expectations of their bosses, but also from the expectations of those

Sara Canaday (04:32.384)

that follow them, right? So the things, I think we joked earlier, you're not gonna remember that boss that was amazing at Excel pivot tables. You're not gonna be like, oh my God, I had this boss once. You wouldn't believe what they could do with Excel spreadsheets, right? That kind of thing isn't memorable, but you will remember the boss that...

Sara Canaday (05:00.66)

When you came and asked them a question, instead of giving you the answer, they actually took enough time to say, well, what do you think? And they wanted your opinion, but they also wanted to transfer their knowledge, right? So that it's something that would be memorable. Because if they just did what, and I admit I probably did numerous times because it was all about efficiency, you just give somebody the answer. It takes a lot less time.

Sara Canaday (05:31.808)

But if you had the mindset of a leader, not a manager, you're constantly thinking, how can I help my followers grow? grow? So that would be one example.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:46.254)

Sarah, I'm well, first of all, you and I are very much aligned in that. I've also had the opportunity to hold all the different levels of leadership positions and now I'm into training. And so I, it's where we've got a great Venn diagram of similarities here, but, and you also bring up a really good point that I want to make sure we talk about because you're right. The perspective of what makes a good leader to the employee might be different to the mid level might be different to the people looking down. So let's

Let's do that now, actually. Let's talk about, so let's say from the perspective of the bottom of the totem pole, from the perspective of the employees, the people on the team looking up at the leader, what are those, what's the, what are some characteristics that come to mind for that person? person? From that.

Sara Canaday (06:31.112)

Yeah, and Brian, I know that we both talked about, you know, we say it's at the bottom, but we both recognize those are the most important people, right, because they're the ones that are collaborating, connecting, and serving your clients. They're the ones that have firsthand knowledge of what's really going on. They're your future leaders, potentially, right?

Sara Canaday (06:59.4)

So in a way serving them, I would think as a leader is one of the most important roles you have. And their perspective and what drives them is crucial. So from their lens, they're looking for a leader who really takes the time instead of just cascading objectives, right? I remember that.

I had a boss who actually used to look at my meeting minutes to make sure that I was passing on what I heard in his meeting. And I get that. Oh, yes. Seriously. he would collect the meeting minutes from all of his managers to make sure that we all were passing on the information, which there is some value there, right? They needed to make sure that information was flowing from the executive council down to...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:37.054)

What? Seriously? Oh.

Sara Canaday (07:57.436)

everyone else. However, there was an oversight because simply passing on information doesn't help employees follow the big picture. People need for you as a leader to paint that vivid imagery for them. for them. them. Here's the objectives that we're going for. They want you to share the rationale. Here's why this decision was made.

Sara Canaday (08:27.724)

and they want you to enroll them in the process, right? It is your job to set the stage and set the agenda, but it doesn't mean you can't say, here's the objective, here's the outcomes we're going for, but give people a say in how to get there, right? Because today's employees want to feel like they're playing a bigger role in the evolution.

of a company, right? Now we resist that as leaders because guess what? Once again, it takes time and I get it. We are putting a lot on leaders. So from the perspective of the people who do the work, who are your followers, they want characteristics of somebody who really cares, enrolls them.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:00.407)

Thanks for watching.

Sara Canaday (09:26.112)

paints a vivid picture, respects, and goes after your opinion. Right? That's not to say, you know, and is very candid and transparent as to when and why your opinion can't happen. They want somebody who kind of works on an open book management style as much as they can. Right? You don't have to reveal your...

Sara Canaday (09:55.464)

you know, open the kimono entirely, but trust that they A, want and care what's going on and that they can handle it, right?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:05.982)

Yeah. Sarah, with these, can we all, I want to yes and you here, because this is all like stuff that's a no-brainer and I'm really fascinated with the difference between good and great. So compare for me when you talked about those things, what is the good leader doing for those and what is the great leader doing for some of those things you just mentioned? Can you call that out?

Sara Canaday (10:26.632)

Right. So, I mean, I just go back to the example of making sure you're passing on information. So a good leader will actually pass the information on. Because let's face it, how many people have you said, you know, you do an employee survey and you ask, are you getting the information you need? And I got to tell you, in a lot of companies, the answer is no.

So leaders are so busy, they're not even passing on the information. So a good leader at least does make sure their employees are informed. A great leader makes sure their employees are informed and engaged. And inspired. Right. I'm always telling leaders shift from communicating to inform and impress.

and move to communicate, to engage and inspire, right?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:24.258)

So that's where the telling them the why on why we're doing things and the big picture, all that stuff comes in.

Sara Canaday (11:28.084)

Being transparent.

sharing your rationale. Yes. And then the same thing with good to great in terms of helping to grow and develop your people. A good leader is available for people to ask questions, doesn't shut the door to their office, or never available on Zoom. They actually are there to.

head off questions, remove obstacles, point you in the right direction if you're lost or need some information. A great leader actually holds open office hours, for example, once a week so that anybody could drop in and ask a question and anybody else can hear it for their benefit. And they take the time to say, what do you think? Well, let's explore that.

Sara Canaday (12:27.988)

What other options might be available to us? What if you did that differently? You know, those kinds of questions.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:31.294)

Yeah. In that scenario, what do you say about chain of command? I know chain of command is a big thing. If there, if you're, if I'm thinking like, if three levels above you is having office hours and you're going in there and you're asking something that is that a concern with good to great? Or what are your thoughts on that?

Sara Canaday (12:53.736)

Yeah, and I'm glad you asked that because I want to clarify that when I say open office hours, I meant mainly for your own team.

Sara Canaday (13:02.268)

Yes. So that's something I had started to suggest to people since the pandemic that, you know, maybe on Fridays for an hour, you say, look, I'm going to be on Zoom from 10 to 11. I'm just going to be working away. But if you pop in, have a question, I'm here for you. Right. I've also seen companies who've done open office hours after strategic planning. They've announced the strategic plan and there's one sort of project manager or a couple.

Sara Canaday (13:32.212)

that every Friday hold office hours, open office hours to discuss the strategic plan across. So that's to your point, that's would be a more global open office hour.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:45.11)

Got it. So it's open office hours for your team. Okay. That makes sense. Do.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:54.398)

Well, OK, so we talked about open and transparency and some of some of that stuff. So now you're still in the lens of the person looking up at your leader. Good difference between good and great. What else you listed like a bunch? What else? What else comes to mind?

Sara Canaday (14:08.104)

Well, one is to be a connector, right? So I think so many people tell me that one of the challenges, especially in big organizations, is the maze. The maze in how to get the information you need. Like, who do you go to? That's half the battle, right? And so a good leader might know where to send you.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:25.028)

God yes.

Sara Canaday (14:37.84)

A great leader is so well connected themselves. They've worked hard enough on their own network that they can now share it with you. And they can connect you with the right people if you're struggling with a project, but they remembered somebody they knew was working on a similar project. So it may not even be just information you need to do your job, but just helping you with a challenge you might be having.

Well, let me introduce you to my colleague over at, you know, engineering, they had a similar project or, you know, whatever the case. That leader also is good at connecting you to somebody who holds similar interests in their career and maybe are two steps ahead of you. And so again, you're wanting to grow and develop that person, you're actually coaching them, you're spending one-on-one time, not just on their projects and how you can help them remove obstacles,

Sara Canaday (15:35.692)

how you can get them to spend more time in the things that they enjoy and are good at doing. That means you're supporting them in their career aspirations, right? You're connecting them to maybe courses they could take. You're connecting them to people who can mentor them or have coffee with them, you know, that sort of thing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:56.11)

have those conversations about growth and stuff. And let me ask you, cause this is a sort of a burning question on that topic, which is, okay, now what do you do if you're in an organization where you can't immediately replace people when they leave? Cause this is one of those big concerns, right? Is you connect them, you help them grow, and then they leave and you can't replace them. And now your team is down and now your performance is down. And so it's like this, it's like this sort of bittersweet thing where I think

Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:25.066)

I think most people would want the best for the people that work for them. And I think there's a lot of organizations that set you up to fail if you do that, because then on the backside, you're not gonna be able to replace that person when they're gone or something like that. So what do you say about that in those situations?

Sara Canaday (16:43.988)

Yeah, I mean, that's a tough one.

Sara Canaday (16:49.216)

Here's what I find can happen is if you gatekeep somebody who is ready for the next level, they could leave anyway, right? So now you're stuck with not only not being able to fill that position, but with a potential reputation of not being the kind of manager that supports their employees' growth. So-

I try to encourage whenever I can, even if it puts you in a vulnerable position, that if it's very clear that somebody is ready for the next level and there's an opportunity that you should do everything you can to support that person's progress. I have to admit though, Brian, I have not been in that many situations or leaders that have come to me that have said, I'm hesitant to do that because I can't fill it. Now.

Have I heard leaders say I'm hesitant because they're the only ones on the team that can really work at that level and then I'm gonna have to step in and do more or my team's gonna have to do more? Absolutely. But not being able to backfill the position, that is hard, I'm gonna admit. That's one I haven't heard a lot of, I mean, I've heard it, but I haven't heard a lot of it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:55.838)

Yes. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:08.81)

Right. Well, and I have a background in government service where they can't re rehire or like you've heard the things on the news where the government's like, well, we're only going to hire one for every three that leaves. And then like, oh, my God, hold on to your teams because you ain't get like it. So I that's part of where my frame of reference there is. So that's and that's a struggle, too, because ultimately, I totally agree with you in that I truly believe in the long run. If you look out for other people, they will look out for you.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:37.898)

And so if you help them grow, they are going to want, they are going to recommend people come work for you more than any other manager who tried to keep their teams because so like in the universe, what goes around comes around and that will absolutely be true. So if you hold people back and I've been the employee that's been held back because they didn't want to like, we can't, well, if you go, we can't replace you. I need you to. And so in my mind, like, this is a no brainer where you

First of all, if you have one person that is imperative, it is, and you can't function without them, it's on you as a manager to cross train and get everybody else up to speed so that you are not in that position for yourself and your team. But besides that, gosh, it's so, you're such, it's a much better leader if you're helping them grow. I totally agree.

Sara Canaday (19:26.324)

Right, yeah. And you know, employees really value that. I mean, that's what's gonna lead to loyalty, engagement, discretionary effort on their part. You know, the company benefits, right, from the global loyalty, the global engagement. You know, it's just a domino effect, a ripple effect.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:53.598)

Yeah. So the, so it seems like we're saying, so the good manager in this case is one that has the answers. The great manager not only has the answers, but connects you with other people and helps you network and grow your career, not just find the answers.

Sara Canaday (20:11.912)

Yeah, and there's a whole other angle to that. I, you know, a good leader has the answer. A great leader knows how to ask the right questions. So not only are they saying, well, what do you think? But in team meetings, they're using questions very strategically. They're saying things like, okay, what are we missing here? Or if time weren't...

Sara Canaday (20:38.192)

an obstacle here. If we had all the time in the world, how would we approach this? They're saying things at the end of the meeting like, what would make you more comfortable with this strategy? What have I left unsaid? That's a great manager. They're making sure that they're helping their followers think more critically, more innovatively, but they're also

Sara Canaday (21:07.66)

making sure that they're more enrolled. Cause you know, there's always the meeting after the meeting where people say what they really want to say about, you know, a new project or a new process or new hours. But if you say those things at the end, like, you know, I'm sensing some hesitancy, what would make you more comfortable with this? Or what have I left unsaid? You're getting it all out on the table, right then and there.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:33.452)

What do you say in those situations also? What do you say to the managers who are, I've been around, there seems to be two schools of thought, right? The one school of thought would be, get the best manager for this role. But what often happens is, the person who's been around the longest or is the most senior who knows how to do the job down here at the floor level, is now like the first one to move up to manager and-

they are not necessarily the best manager. So it's that idea that they believe that being the best at my job is what makes me a good manager. And so in those situations, if you're under a person like that, well, I mean, it's almost like two messages, right? For that manager who got your job because...

You were really good at doing the job underneath you, and now you have this manager job. Please remember what got you here won't get you there. That's not, you got to change. But what do you say for that? There's a level of almost insecurity of managing someone who is better at the job than you are or than you were. Like you don't know the answer. You would have to go to your employee underneath you to find out what that answer is. How do you talk about that sort of ego insecurity situation for bosses?

Sara Canaday (22:58.652)

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I even have a course on LinkedIn, one called How to Manage an Experienced Manager. So it could even be somebody who's just more experienced than you are, right? They may not have, in your case, it was more knowledge about the role, right? It could be either of those things. But I mean, I think in, yeah, in either case, it's going to be a matter of

Sara Canaday (23:28.808)

and transparency. And if you can be really good at all the other pieces of leadership, not management, but more of manager and leader, and be very forthright and say, my job is to be a generalist now. And there will be times where I will have to go to somebody who has expertise at a depth level.

that I don't have, but that's not my role. My role is a leader. I'm a generalist, not a specialist. And the worst is to pretend, I think, that you have that expertise, or even try to limit going to somebody just for the appearance, as opposed to just calling a spade a spade and being really confident about it. Like if...

It's like anything else, if you go into it very timidly, like, oh, well, can you tell me, you know, as opposed to, hey, I'm coming to you because I know you have industry or, you know, institutional knowledge here that I don't hold. And, you know, for me to be of more value to the team, help me understand how XYZ works, right? So you're just confidently asking.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:54.058)

Yeah. And you know, thinking that you've got to be the best in order to be the leader is a very dangerous game, because there will always be someone better than you. So my gosh, if you embrace the fact that you don't have to have all the answers, your job as the leader is not to have all the answers. But think about if you've got a team where somebody on your roster has all the answers.

Sara Canaday (25:13.908)

the answers.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:23.394)

How good of a manager are you? Because now you, your whole, you know, like the baseball team is not the one player, it's the whole team. So like, man, you got one home run slugger. That doesn't mean that you've got to be able to hit the home runs too. Like don't go match for match with him on home runs. Just, yeah, so I just, yeah. That's the, my gosh, the thoughts that I'm having here. It's so fun. So Sarah, what about, we've talked a little bit about from the perspective of now the-

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:51.622)

the employee or the team looking up. Now, what about, I wanna talk about mid-level and then I wanna talk about senior level from that perspective. So now, from the mid-level manager perspective, now you've got a team underneath you and you've got bosses above you. From that person's perspective, what's the good leader? What's a good leader and what's a great leader and what's the difference there?

Sara Canaday (26:17.812)

Yeah, well, I think as you go from your point upwards, I mean, we're gonna circle back to performance, right?

I mean, that's going to be the first line of defense is your performance. Are you hitting your metrics? Is your team hitting your metrics? Have you amassed a team that can cover all the bases? That's a good manager slash leader. A great manager leader actually not only has amassed a team, but

Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:33.742)

Okay, the numbers, what are your metrics?

Sara Canaday (26:57.94)

they're pretty good at matching those team members with the skills that they're not only good at, but that inspire them, right? So...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:08.962)

Ooh, okay, like what? When you say inspire them.

Sara Canaday (27:12.412)

Well, because it's one thing to just be able to say, okay, I have a body of work and I'm going to facilitate the distribution of this body of work to eight, 10, 12 people, right? And I do that and I do it in a very organized way. I'm on top of it. Every time that body of work comes in, I'm distributing timely, right? But then it really takes an exceptional leader to say,

Sara Canaday (27:41.348)

Okay, of this body of work, I know that Luis loves this part of this work. And when I know that the more he gets to do this type of work, the more inspired he is to be engaged, to think of more ideas, to contribute. Right? So it's starting to match the work with the interests and the level of skill of the employee. Right?

Sara Canaday (28:11.752)

let's face it, they could be interested in it. If they're not very good at it, then your role as a manager is you gotta say, hey, well, let's help you get good at it, right? So that would be a distinction right there. And in terms of what they... Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:32.662)

Ooh, Sarah, can I, I want to, I want to ask you a yes. And on that one, yes, that makes perfect sense. When you find the strengths and I, you know, I've, I've almost, I've hemmed and hawed on the concept of strength based leadership for a while. Like there, there's a, there's a book on this. There's, there's a lot of talk about this. And on the one hand, giving them the things that are their strengths helps your team. And at the same time in development, you know,

having them do the work that helps evolve their weaknesses is a good one too. So I feel like you can't, your team is not gonna be great if you're just giving the strengths to the strong people and moving it around, but you can't also make everybody do the stuff they're bad at thinking that's gonna make a great team. So what, I mean, is it obviously the answer in my head is well then balance it, Brian, but like, what would you say on that?

Sara Canaday (29:25.364)

There's a sweet spot, absolutely. And I'm with you, although I typically have an unpopular opinion about strengths-based. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not a diehard strengths-based person, believe it or not. I know that sounds, it sounds like it runs counter to what I just said. Here's why. I find that when I think about people who have challenges and opportunities to improve. There's a small portion where that lands on actual performance, like inability and skill. I think that's the lesser of what typically happens when somebody has room for improvement. It's in their behavior.

Sara Canaday (30:20.828)

It's in their behavior and in their attitude and their, yeah. So that's why I think that you should talk to your employees about both their strengths and their opportunities for improvement. I'm a firm believer in both.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:40.758)

You know, it's almost like it's you need to find the, give them their strengths and let more than half of their workload be strengths and things that they enjoy. And you can almost put it to the team or to them and say, and here's the areas where you can develop skills. You either don't have these skills or don't have good performance in these areas. And if they're most people.

are willing to bite off some of that. And as long as you don't overload their plate with the really bad stuff or the stuff they don't enjoy, then they know, most people know that you go to work and it's not always sunshine and rainbows and sprinkles on top. Like that's not a thing. So yeah, interesting.

Sara Canaday (31:26.608)

Yeah, and I mean, I think it's a somewhat of a privilege to be given the work that you enjoy. So I'm assuming that the person you're giving that work to does not have any team, lack of teamwork type issues or behavioral issues. Yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:47.106)

Fair. We're talking about the problem children of the problem children, no matter what their ability are at the job skills department. That's fair. Does it, does your advice change if they're a, I'm calling it problem child. That makes it sound, I don't know, that doesn't sound right, but the bad performers.

Sara Canaday (32:04.672)

Yeah, I think it does change because, you know, let's say when you say a bad performer, let's say it's on producing widgets or meeting their metrics, you know, at this point, your ultimate responsibility is to get that person to perform the standard of the job, right? What the expectations are. You're not at the level of trying to help them do more work that they enjoy.

Sara Canaday (32:33.724)

let's just get the first level done, right? And then once that's done and they've shown they can maintain that level of performance, then you work to find out what's under their hood, what they enjoy, what would inspire them, what would get them more involved, that sort of thing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:56.246)

You know, while we're on this topic, I love that we, we went here because my immediate thought also is at what point as a leader, like on the one hand, you to be a good leader, you are being, uh, you're there, they're looking up to you. You're helping them evolve their career. You're, you're serving a serving manager. A serving leader is a good one that's helping them evolve. And at some point, there is a decision where maybe this person is not a good addition to this team.

But the process of removing someone from a team is not a short process. Generally, you can't just, you know, oftentimes you're building an HR file or you're documenting performance and then there's a personal improvement plan of some kind oftentimes. And like, so how do you juggle the line of removing someone and still being a good leader? What do you say to that manager who's now trying to do that?

Sara Canaday (33:53.256)

Are they doing it with the same person you mean, or juggling that with their other team members?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:01.73)

Well, they're they've got multiple people on their team and one of them is a is the problem and now they're looking at. I think the organization would be better if this person was not on the team. So they're starting to move in that direction. What's

Sara Canaday (34:16.328)

Yeah, you know, it's funny because I look back to when I was in corporate and because I was in banking and insurance, they are among the most traditional businesses.

Sara Canaday (34:31.516)

Sometimes they're run by very conservative leaders who were leading in decades where you weren't candid, right? You weren't candid with your employees. You didn't sit down and have an honest, genuine conversation. Everything was, every word had to be, you know,

pass legal approval, everything you said or wanted to say to the employee had to check the dots and make sure that it was a legal, proper legal way that wouldn't get the company in trouble moving forward.

Sara Canaday (35:31.276)

is weeding out, right? And so in order for you to be a great leader, to me, you have to have the genuine conversation with somebody and you have to be able to say, it's clear to me that there's not a fit here. Or starting out first, what are you sensing here? I know that you've been struggling to achieve these results. What is that?

mean to you, what's bubbling up for you. And try to have a candid conversation to get him or her to see that it may not be the right fit. Right? And that you just wanna help that person be successful, whether it's on your team, with your company, or somewhere else. And sometimes that just means coming to the conclusion that there's a disconnect, there's just not a fit.

And I don't think we do that enough, but I can tell you that I would have never done that at my corporation because I wasn't given, I wasn't trained that way either. Right?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:43.922)

Yeah. I mean, a lot in the in the bigger organizations, if you're going to start making moves like that, you basically sort of have to hand it over to HR because you're the threat of a lawsuit is real. And so it's all got to be all formal. All of the human comes out of it. Everything is very much supervised or recorded or documented or paperwork or Yeah, which

Sara Canaday (37:08.696)

But I think that there is a point at which, you know, if you're not on your third corrective action, I can see if you've done one or two corrective actions, you're down that road. If you're on the first, maybe leading into your second potentially, I don't know why you couldn't go to HR and say, look, I wanna have this candid conversation. I care about this person.

I don't want to just do things behind his or her back and start documenting and keeping my notes to be fair to this person, to keep their dignity.

Will you allow me to just have a very candid conversation to see where they're at right now? What are they thinking about this role and whether or not it's a fit for them? And I've seen more often than not, people get permission. And believe it or not, the person that is spoken to candidly is appreciative and comes to their own conclusion that it's not a right fit much of the time.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:18.102)

Yeah. Let them arrive at it themselves. So in that scenario, while we're on this, good to great now. So you're the supervisor of somebody who's going through a performance improvement plan. It sounds like a good leader would be having an honest conversation and a great leader would be asking them to have a two way conversation.

Sara Canaday (38:43.292)

Yeah, I have a feeling even a good leader is following company protocol, which means they're probably not having a very authentic conversation. They're just following the protocol, right? And in their mind, they're doing what they're supposed to.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:59.039)

Got it. So good to great leader. Let's, let's shift our perspective. Now we went from the bottom and then we were in the middle and now senior C level executives. Now you're looking down on the leaders that are coming up. Who do we promote? Who do we, and we've already said metrics. You've, you've made that one clear, Sarah. We got that one as far as you're, but you gotta have your good, you're by the numbers, but then what's

Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:28.414)

What's the difference between good and great from the C- level looking down?

Sara Canaday (39:34.536)

Well, just by way of painting a vivid picture, let's say you have an executive in a meeting, in a project meeting, where one of your staff members is there, and that staff member is able to talk pretty articulately about a project or is willing to express an opinion based on their level of expertise.

That raises eyebrows, right? Executives start, they're like, if that's the kind of stuff I see out of a leader's team, that's getting my attention. Because that means that leader must encourage in their own team setting that kind of conversation. Or for whatever reason, their team actually cares and wants to contribute, right?

Sara Canaday (40:31.3)

It says a lot about the leader, right? So just the observation of what is it about your team or does your team just stay super siloed, close to the vest, puts their head down, gets their work done so that nobody will bother them, right? It's those kinds of things are noticed even if people don't, leaders don't think they are. You know, I think the other thing that a...

a higher level boss looks for is how entrepreneurial you are as a leader. Right? Are you not only meeting your metrics, not only have people that seem to be loyal and engaged, but are you pushing back? Right? Are you asking, why do we always do it this way? What if we did it another way? What if we stopped doing this altogether? Would anybody notice? You are really...

starting to take things on as if you care and you care more than for your immediate team. You're asking questions on a broader scale, right? They're looking for that leader to be very situationally fluent, right? So let's say they come to an executive meeting and they present, but can they read the room?

Can they sense that they're going a little bit too much in the weeds and they need to pull back? Can they sense that they need to go ahead and open it up for conversation? Do they sense that the conversation can use a little levity? It's getting a little tense. You know what I mean? It's so, yeah. And I know that's asking a lot, right? We're painting a picture of somebody who walks on water, but

Sara Canaday (42:26.804)

If you have all those levels, that's what you aspire to is to be able to be that kind of leader.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:37.706)

Yeah. What about, I mean, there's always the, we talked earlier about chain of command and I feel like looking at it from this way again, like you, what, what are your thoughts on? There are some times where if you are the, if you're the senior level executive and you're looking down and someone from one of your report's teams, so two levels or more below you,

is now raising something to you.

Is that, it seems like that would be a rare occasion and if they do it well, that would reflect good on the manager. But for the most part, it's probably not, it should be coming through the manager. Is that, does that track?

Sara Canaday (43:23.284)

No, I think you're right. I mean, unless there is a by design event where that boss's boss is asking for and is inviting that kind of conversation, typically, yes, it should follow some sort of chain of command. And as soon as I got that out of my mouth, I just can see this generation is, that's a really hard thing to swallow.

Because in their mind, you know, what? You know, that person puts their pants on just like I do. I can't go straight to them and have a conversation. It's very foreign to later generations. But it does, you know, if I were to compel to somebody that's thinking that way, I guess I would say, look, it shows a monocle of respect. If everybody went to the boss's boss, they would get nothing done.

Sara Canaday (44:23.068)

There has to be, you know, it's just like when you have external customers, you want to have a central point where all your customer complaints come in. I mean, that's what we aim for so that there's one point of contact. It makes it more efficient and it makes us look a little better from the company side because we wanna make sure everybody's saying the same thing. It's no different, right? It's sort of similar.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:51.838)

You know, and you're saying this, I'm almost envisioning like, oh, okay, so then the scenario that would be good is if there's an issue that needs to be raised to the boss's boss, and the employee brings it to their manager, their manager then sets up the meeting with the boss's boss, and they've had a discussion beforehand, and then lets the employee bring it up to the manager and do the speaking in the meeting.

offers the employee person under you the chance to look, to brief up and look good. You look good because your employee is bringing an important issue and you knew it was going to be, so that's good. And up here, the C level is looking down going, oh, that's a really important point. And look at this person from this person's team. They've got a good team. And so it's almost like everybody wins if you, I guess if you're aware of what they're going to levels above ahead of time.

don't get in the way of your employees who are who want to go two levels up as long as you know what's going to happen. Or I don't know is that does that does that make any sense? Maybe I'm just I hope.

Sara Canaday (46:00.428)

No, it actually makes great sense. And I have to admit, I don't know that I've heard that as a strategy. Typically, when you go to your manager, you share the idea with the manager and the manager shares it with the boss's boss, or his boss, and then his boss goes, right? And then it comes back down, right? What was their response? And you share that if you're a good manager.

Sara Canaday (46:30.26)

But I love your idea that, you know, what if we live in a world where, and it probably does happen at some companies, where you could go to your boss or boss's boss and say, hey, I have an employee who has a great idea and rather than me pass it along, I'd love for you to hear directly from them. Are you open to that? Do you have the time? And, you know, it'll depend on the culture of the organization, it'll depend on the person.

Sara Canaday (47:00.328)

You know, let's face it, the person may say no, because they don't have time and that's legit. The person may say no, because they come from, you know, they've been trained and grew up in a very, you know, no, just you let me know what it is and I'll respond.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:17.814)

Right, that hierarchy, that hierarchy thing. Chain of command, the chain of command thing. You know, I'm almost thinking that's the difference between a good and a great for the senior leader too, is like, are you willing to listen to vetted messages from levels below the person right under you? And how do you respond to those? Do you, oh, I didn't tell you, you know, like that's a big one. And man.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:46.342)

Oh, Sarah, can we, I don't know, do you break? This is a kind of a tangential note we were talking earlier about communicating through your man. If you're a C level, a senior manager up here and you're communicating down, you talked about, you had a boss who made sure it was in your notes that you relayed the information down. And in today's day and age, the thing that blows my mind is why don't you have some sort of video recorded video or Email or talk directly to the troops, not just the people right under them. What are your thoughts?

Sara Canaday (48:48.832)

Well, so, okay, I can make a case for why not. Because this is part of what you see a leader is made of. So you want to know that your leaders can step up to the game and they can share this kind of information. And you want that leader's team to see them as a leader. So if we constantly...

Sara Canaday (49:17.472)

turn around a laptop and then just hit play, we don't own that message. We aren't stepping in as their leader to sort of translate what that means for them in particular. Does that make sense? Now, if it's something like, you know, we're changing the work from home policy across the...

Sara Canaday (49:44.14)

Yeah, absolutely. You can do that in a video and then have the manager there to answer questions as it relates to you in particular or if you're changing your health policy, your health plan's changing. But it's interesting that you bring this up because I am on a nonprofit board and we recently had a conversation where there is going to be some important announcements.

Sara Canaday (50:14.176)

And this very thing came up about a video and then, you know, making sure that the board chair and CEO are available to if there's any questions. And I'm the one that said, wait a minute, what are we going to make the leaders go hide in their offices? No, they need to be front and center. They need to own that information so that their staff sees them as a leader.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (50:37.77)

Yeah. So, so what is I want to then the last thing I want to circle back to then is earlier you mentioned the boss that used to renew, review, renew, review your notes on did you share the information that what's paint a paint a picture of good to good and great leader in that case? Like how are you inspecting what you expect? How are you getting

making sure that the message gets relayed? in a way that's a good leader or a great leader, not the nag that you made it seem like this manager was for you.

Sara Canaday (51:14.036)

Yeah, I mean, I think that...

Sara Canaday (51:18.1)

The very act itself of checking the minutes is what missed, you know, that misses the mark because that goes to, did you inform them or did you educate them? And what you really want to know is how are you bringing that vision to life? So I, for example, had a boss once that used to ask me, hey, is it okay if I stop into your staff meeting? And I think that was great because he wanted to see not only

Sara Canaday (51:47.512)

Am I sharing it, but how am I? Did I, you know, I tell leaders this all the time, bring a prop, right? Bring a pen and talk about the analogies of how this pen works and this new product that we're gonna launch or deliver, right? Or, you know, get up on the whiteboard and start drawing, you know.

the earth, the moon, and the sun, and talk about how these products are actually future-oriented, so they're pointing towards the sun. What kind of, how hard do you work to make this relatable to your team, and how it affects their work?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:34.346)

Yep. Gosh, that makes so much sense.

Sara Canaday (52:37.544)

And you know what's interesting is I have to admit, I don't necessarily find myself very creative. I'm much more analytical and I'm always, you know, let's be efficient. So I'm thinking, yeah, right. I have the time to be imaginative. Well, now we don't have an excuse. Cause guess what? We have AI as a leader. You can actually prompt AI and say, I'm a leader of a team. I need to pass down.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:50.208)

Right?

Sara Canaday (53:07.508)

This, our new business objectives, here they are. How can I explain these in a way that paints a picture or that uses an analogy or a story? Boom, you would not believe what AI gives back.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (53:21.67)

Wow, there is a hack for you right there. Sarah delivering the AI hacks. Oh, I like it. Oh, that's good. Well, Sarah, I know you and I could probably, I mean, I'm full of questions and we could go on all day between our stories and we're so aligned with our Venn diagram and the stuff we talk about. So thank you very much for joining me today. I wanted to ask, what is this topic in leadership? Clearly you're very passionate about it. Is there a personal story or what does this mean for you personally?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (53:51.278)

Where does this come from for you?

Sara Canaday (53:53.16)

You know, when you first asked me sort of how I made the transition or what made me different, and I talked about the fact that, you know, I'd held all those positions, but I've never thought of this before. I think the other thing that makes me different and makes me have a passion is I was uber observant of how my leaders were with me and my peers.

And I was struck by the impact they could have on me. And that really clung to me, right? And I have to admit, a lot of that is, I would say to myself, I would never do that if I was a leader. I mean, you know, I worked at really big organizations and I, in some cases felt like a number. And in some cases have leaders that had

Sara Canaday (54:53.02)

no self-awareness and they would do things that just, I mean, made their employees feel just like, you know, robots. And so I think that's kind of where this whole thing stemmed from and where the passion stemmed from.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (55:16.126)

Yep, absolutely. And you will definitely, you, just like you said, you learn a lot from the way not to do it from managers, as much as you learn the way to do it. Like I, I definitely have so many examples of being held back and knowing that I never want to hold people back because I was held back and it was awful. Like there was, Oh, so that question earlier about what do you do when they can't replace you? And then you're still like, Oh my God, that was a

Brian Nelson-Palmer (55:42.77)

Oh, I live that it was terrible. And so I will never forget those managers in a really bad way. Oh, I hear you. Gosh. Well, Sarah, here's what I love. I love that you're doing this thing that you learned through the years. And I love the stories and the experience that you're sharing from both on the personal level, but also on the level that you teach this stuff and you've worked with executives who also face this, too. So that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (56:12.322)

that comparison of personal stories and lessons learned from others together makes a really powerful combination, I think. So I think it's awesome what you're doing. And thank you very much for coming and sharing. I was fascinated with this conversation of the difference between good and great. And I feel like you did share some. We took some awesome takeaways from this thing today. So thank you very much.

Sara Canaday (56:30.784)

Well, good. It was enjoyable on my end too.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (56:34.846)

What is now we wanted to make sure if folks who want to keep in touch with you and things that they should check out with you share that right now.

Sara Canaday (56:42.28)

Yeah, first and foremost, I would say LinkedIn. I'm on all social media, but I spend the majority of my time on LinkedIn. So you can follow me on LinkedIn. I have a newsletter on LinkedIn. I also have probably about 15, 16 courses on LinkedIn learning. So you can go check out my courses on LinkedIn learning. And yes, those are my primary.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (57:08.59)

Keep in touch and I will make sure I'll have the links to all those in the episode notes for you. So you can just, if you're listening right now, just jump down there and, and check out the notes section. You can, you can see those links right there to check out Sarah. So and for you tuning in two opportunities for you. The first one is, do you have a friend or colleague who is working their way up in leadership? And if you do, would you share this episode with them right now?

Brian Nelson-Palmer (57:36.074)

And the reason I say that is because this episode specifically, right, because sometimes people recommend podcasts and like, Oh, check out productivity Gladiator, check out these different podcasts and you go and there's a whole bunch of episodes. But the experience of sharing this one episode with that one person and then even having a little, even if it's via text message, like, Hey, have a little conversation about this. I thought about you because do you remember that terrible boss or that great boss that we had and start that?

That keep in touch thing that can happen because of Sarah and I's conversation today is so cool. And I know that Sarah and I both would really appreciate if you would share this thing with someone who would get some good impact from this, because this is why we do this. So thank you for that. And obviously I appreciate the likes and the follows and the, and the subscriptions and the reviews and that kind of stuff on this show. So you can join the email list too. I have that for you, but more importantly, I just, I love sharing Productivity Gladiator with you.

So that's a wrap.

AI Productivity Hacks: 14 Game-Changing Prompts to Transform Your Work & Life

Brian Nelson-Palmer shares 14 creative prompts to leverage generative AI (like ChatGPT) to supercharge your productivity at work and in your personal life. This is especially relevant to Project Managers and Aspiring Leaders. From data analysis to contract summaries to infusing humor into speeches, he provides practical examples of how AI can be your "brilliant intern." He also introduces his new Productivity Gladiator membership course where you can learn these skills in a more hands-on learning environment.

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The Audio/Podcast

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Links to References In This Episode

• The brand new monthly membership available from Productivity Gladiator. It’s the monthly Starbucks for your professional development. This special introductory offer will never be available again. It’s a steal at the current price as more and more is added to the membership, thanks for considering joining now, getting in on the ground floor.

• The episode on AI and how it will affect your job, with Christopher Lind.

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Episode Digest

Are you looking to boost your productivity and streamline various tasks in your professional and personal life? Generative AI tools like ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini and others offer a powerful solution. With the ability to analyze data, generate ideas, and provide insights, these AI assistants can act as your "brilliant intern," taking care of tedious and time-consuming tasks so you can focus on higher-level work.

Here are 14 creative ways to leverage generative AI to transform your productivity:

1. Intense Raw Data Analysis
   Got a massive spreadsheet filled with raw sales data from various regions and years? Simply upload it to the AI and ask it to find the region with the highest revenue for each year from 2010 to 2024. AI can quickly crunch through the numbers, providing you with the insights you need.

2. Write The Excel Formula
   Struggling to get the right syntax for a complex Excel formula? Describe the data you have and the calculation you want, and the AI can provide the exact formula you need to reference cells across sheets and perform the desired analysis.

3. Help Create Pivot Tables
   Pivot tables are powerful data summarization tools, but setting them up correctly can be tricky. Leverage AI by providing your data set and asking it to create a pivot table that shows the metrics you need, such as average sales size per salesperson.

4. Leverage Meeting Transcripts
   Missed an important meeting? No problem. Copy the transcript, paste it into the AI, and ask it to summarize what happened, including any action items assigned to you. Stay on top of things even when you can't attend every meeting.

5. Absorb Contracts and Long Documents Quickly
   Taking over a new project mid-stream? Ask the AI to summarize a contract or project charter, outlining the deliverables, who's responsible for what, and when things are due. Get up to speed quickly without wading through dense legalese.

6. Find Templates
   Need to create an event invite, marketing email, or other communication? AI has templates for nearly everything. Provide the key details, and it can generate a well-structured draft that you can further refine.

7. Locate Laws and Regulations
   Navigating legal and policy requirements can be a headache. Cut through the confusion by asking the AI to surface relevant laws, regulations, and policies for your specific situation, along with explanations of how they might impact your plans.

8. Brainstorm Creative Writing
   Hit a creative block? AI can be your brainstorming buddy, generating engaging titles, catchy one-liners, or fresh angles to liven up your presentations, speeches, or written materials.

9. Learn Quick
   Need to get up to speed on an unfamiliar topic fast? Describe the situation to the AI, such as an upcoming interview for a role you're not fully versed in, and it can suggest relevant questions to ask or areas to research.

10. Fight Tickets
    Got slapped with a parking ticket? Some towns have exceptions or appeals processes you may not know about. Ask the AI if there's any way to get out of your specific ticket based on the location and circumstances.

11. Understand Permit Requirements
    Planning some home renovations? Rather than wading through confusing bureaucracy, ask the AI if you need any permits for your project and how to obtain them based on your city and state.

12. Find Recipes for Certain Ingredients
    Moving soon and want to use up what's left in your pantry? List out the ingredients you have on hand, and the AI can suggest recipes to help you avoid food waste.

13. Get Travel Recommendations
    Killing time before your flight? Ask the AI for top attractions or activities you can do nearby during your layover window.

14. Add Humor to Speeches
    Tasked with giving a toast or presentation? The AI can help by generating funny one-liners or anecdotes to add some lighthearted moments to your material.

The possibilities are endless when it comes to leveraging AI for productivity. These tools can free up time for more meaningful endeavors.

Of course, it's important to use AI judiciously and fact-check its outputs rather than blindly trusting the information provided. Think of it as that "brilliant intern" – capable and useful but still requiring oversight. By taking advantage of AI's strengths while applying human judgment, you can unlock new levels of efficiency across all areas of your life.

CAN I HELP YOU LEVEL UP WITH THIS?

This episode was 14 prompts. The course I just released as part of the Productivity Gladiator Membership is around 54 prompts. I’ll go much more in depth with you. I’ve shared my screen and given you the examples, and you can participate along with the video lessons, and really get hands on with AI.

This new monthly membership is like a monthly Starbucks for your professional development. This special introductory offer will never be available again. It’s an unbelievable value at the current price, and if you get in now on the ground floor, it will only become more valuable as more and more is added. Thanks for considering joining!

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares hacks and tips exclusively for his email subscribers. As more opportunities come up with the membership, you’ll be the first to know about these news courses and areas of education. Sign up to start receiving these tips!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. These Gladiators wield email management superpowers, a laser-guided ability to focus, samurai-grade prioritization skills, a sniper-precise task tracking approach, Jedi time management skills, and a secret sauce for maximizing their personal life balance. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer, and on this show, I talk about personal practical productivity skills. This is a knowledge drop episode, and this time I'm sharing the top 14 prompts you could be using with AI to be significantly more productive. Now, Here's my big news. I finally have a way to teach and share all this stuff directly with you. After more than a decade of exclusively working with business clients,

I now have a productivity gladiator membership. And here's the difference. Here's what that means. With the podcast, I share this knowledge and it's do it yourself. I tell you about it and then you have to go figure it out on your own. And with this membership, I now have a course to go with this knowledge drop episode. So I'll share my screen and you can actually do it with me right then in real time. So you don't have to go figure it out on your own.

and I can be there with you to help you get started with these productivity skills. The learning I find happens three times faster this way if you're doing it with me. And the impact is certainly twice as big at least. So it's not just the knowledge drop episode two, but one of the things with productivity gladiator training is I've had folks really interested in all of that other good training about to -do list and time management and email management and all of that stuff. And so.

over the next month and months and years, I'm going to be releasing that with this productivity gladiator membership as well. So it's not just the episode, but even more. And right now I've got a special introductory offer. Of course, don't we all when we're talking about this, but it will never be this inexpensive again, because if you're willing to take a chance on me now and support me now while I do this and you'll come with me on this journey.

then I'm happy to keep that introductory price as I add more content, more features, more tiers. There's a lot in store for this membership and I want to share it all with you. So thanks for coming on this journey with me. So today's AI course for this topic, the AI courses in there, plus I already have two more in there. One on my version of time management that came from the Ted organization. I took it about two levels deeper. If you've watched the Ted talk,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (02:22.158)

This goes two levels deeper into that concept and how you can apply it. I've got calculators you'll use. It's awesome. And then the other one is on why you write things down. And over the coming months, like I said, I'll keep rolling out more. So now let's jump into today's topic, which is leveraging generative AI. It's one of the most common things that comes up in the workshops I do with businesses. I'm going to reference back. I was kind of inspired. There was an episode with Christopher Lind.

where we talked about the impact of AI on your job. And now I want to share some of, let's get specific about these are some things you can and should be doing with AI to help you be more productive. I've got Generative AI is things like ChatGPT, Gemini, Claude. You might've heard some of these names before. I hope you have and you're already using them. But through Productivity Gladiator, when I'm teaching time management, email inbox to zero, focus prioritization with these,

with business clients, we're talking about how we can leverage AI. So these are my 14 prompts for you. Now, There's important warnings that I need to give you upfront when it comes to AI. First, using AI, I think of is now a required job skill. I equate interacting with AI to be another skill that you need to learn in your career, Like,

how to use Microsoft Word or remember how to type if you're that old and like what's there's different skills you need in the business world. And at this point, this is definitely a skill you need. So to be relevant, you need to start using these tools right now. In my opinion, I think it's important. And that way, during interviews and discussions, whether you're using it in your job or not, There's a lot of the people that you're working with that are going to be using these tools. So.

You're going to need to be able to relate to those folks. And more importantly, I want you to be able to share your own personal stories about how you used it, not just how you heard about it. So in those future discussions around the workplace, I don't want you to just tell stories about what you heard or somebody said on a podcast. I want your stories to sound more like, yes, I used AI to do this and this and have examples to give with you. So.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (04:45.774)

I want you to dive in and I hope you're already using it. Also leverage, but don't trust AI. Think of AI as your brilliant intern. In the episode with Christopher Lind, I give him total credit for the brilliant intern. I'd never heard that phrase and it's always stuck with me from that episode. So if you haven't heard that episode, I'll drop the link, but you, AI can get it wrong a lot sometimes. And so,

You wouldn't trust your intern to do your work completely for you without checking their product before you gave it to your boss. And this is the same thing with AI. Don't just blindly trust the information that AI gives you.

and the data that it provides. Ask it to support where it got the information that you requested and what it's telling you. For most tasks, I think of AI as starting me 50 to 80 % of the way there, but I still need to finish it. And that's important for you too. So now what do you do with the bandwidth? Here's another important thing. What do you do with the bandwidth that AI frees up for you? And

Please don't just do more work. AI is certainly designed to be more productive, but I want you to consciously think about if AI is making you more productive or it takes less time to do some of your tasks, Please take on meaningful projects or something to expand your career or take a course to learn something new with that extra time. Use the extra time that this gives you to be more productive, but also...

to learn something and do something meaningful in your career or in your life. Also, here's my disclaimer, everything that I share here, these are just my own ideas and I'm sharing my own experience. So anything that you do with these AI tools is entirely your responsibility. I'm not telling you to do this, this is not advice. These are my ideas and I wanna share them with you. All right, so first up, provide answers by doing...

Brian Nelson-Palmer (06:56.908)

Intense raw data analysis. Imagine this. Imagine you have a spreadsheet full of raw data. Let's say it's sales data from all the different regions of the world all the way down at the per transaction level. Massive spreadsheet. Ask AI which region had the highest revenue in each of the years 2010 through 2024. And upload the spreadsheet as well.

AI can do this for you. And it's an emerging capability, but they're also rolling out these built -in capabilities to spreadsheet applications. So you might not even need to do a set, have a separate AI to do this analysis. This might be something that you could roll out right now. So let a leverage AI to help you do this data analysis that you need and draw some of these conclusions or find the answers in the data that you're looking for.

Love using AI for this.

Second one, find the Excel formula. Imagine this, you have a big spreadsheet showing the performance data for a repetitive task that happens over and over and over in your workplace. It's completed by different people on a different team. And so you want to create a scoreboard that's some kind of chart to see.

what the average time is, what's the highest time, what's the lowest time you can use. You want this dashboard to kind of be a performance dashboard or almost like a scoreboard. Right. And that way you can kind of inspire your team to maybe improve their performance because they can see how they're doing compared to the other folks on this task. Ask AI in column X. Is the length of time that it took the person to complete the task each time and in column D,

Brian Nelson-Palmer (08:51.182)

is the name of the person. What's the formula I need to put in cell B2 on the next sheet, which will go back to the previous tab and give me the average of the times for the person in cell A2?

Syntax is important and figuring out it. AI will tell you how do you reference back to the other tab? What's the appropriate cut? Is it a V lookup thing? I've used AI to give me some really complex formulas. And for me, the logic makes sense. Sometimes I know what I want the formula to do, but getting the syntax right and how the word the words are laid out, man, that's a challenge sometimes. And AI is an awesome assistant for that.

So leverage it. It's good idea. Number three, data to create. You have data to create pivot tables. So ask it to create pivot tables. Imagine this. Imagine you've got the same big sales data spreadsheet I was talking about earlier, and now you've got to do some much more complicated calculations. This is something where a pivot table would help. Now, are you already a pivot table expert?

I'm not, I don't use pivot tables all the time. And for me, getting that pivot table set up to give me the data that I need is part of the thing that's really a challenge. I've done it before, I can do it, but inevitably if I'm trying to figure it out, it takes me a long time. So AI can talk you through setting it up if you haven't tried this. So ask AI, I have a spreadsheet that shows sales data. How can I create a pivot table which will show me...

the average size, average sales size per salesperson. You can have a whole conversation on this. You can ask it, oh, well, what about this? How about if I want this in this column? Can I get it to show me some, the sum of all the different transactions? It will help you create the pivot table or the structure that you need to get the data. In the course that I shared, I actually give you an example. I give you example data and

Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:06.062)

I share my screen and you'll try these with me and we'll set up the pivot table together. Very cool what you can do with pivot tables. Number four, meeting transcripts. Imagine you missed a meeting and it was recorded. Open up the recording, copy the transcript, paste it into AI and ask, summarize what happened in this meeting from the included transcript.

What are the action items in general and for me specifically from this meeting? It's amazing what AI can deliver for you. This is really great for me too because oftentimes I can't be in two places at once. There's two meetings that I wanna go to and I can't be there for both. I have to make decisions based on one or the other. If one's being recorded, I will go to the live one.

and I will leverage AI for the transcript from the one that's recorded to catch me up real quick on what I might have missed.

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Contracts and long documents. I love AI for this. Imagine you just got put in charge of a project or a contract midstream. This happens to me all the time in my career. I probably for you to where they're like here join this team join this thing inevitably there's probably a project charter or a contract document or something that's been put in place before in before you join the team. So here's the prompt.

I just took over managing this contract, summarize what's what this contract project is about and outline the deliverables specifically who needs to do what and when and give it the contract document or the documents that you have. It's helped me give me a snapshot right off the bat of some of the general. It gives me the 10 thousand foot view really quick and really easy so that I can then zoom in and

be more specific with the data that I need from it and what my role is, but so helpful. Number six, find templates. AI has templates for everything. Imagine you're creating an invite to an event. Maybe it's a meeting, a calendar invite for a meeting or an Eventbrite for an actual event, humans forget to include information. You might've done this before. Somebody sends you a calendar invite

and it doesn't say the location or it doesn't say the time or there's some important details that get left out by leveraging your brilliant intern with AI, before you send something out, you'll get all the details the first time. and you'll help create more memorable invites. It phrases it really well. So here's the thing. Here's an example. Ask AI: I'm hosting a fundraiser event to benefit.

Big Brother Big Sister Organization. I'm a volunteer with them on the side. That's one of my life balance things. So I'm sorry, the prompt is, I'm hosting a fundraiser event to benefit the Big Brother Big Sister Organization where I live. Here's the date, time, location. Help me create the details I need to put in the Eventbrite page information. It will list it out for you. And then Here's a bonus.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:28.75)

Ask it after it does that. Ask it. Can you make it even more persuasive? We'll be looking for these people to donate to the cause, not just attend. AI will rewrite it with some more language for you that you could use. And then you pick and select what you like, but that'll give you an outline. It'll give you a template. Love AI for the templates because it's a place to get you started. Number seven, find laws and regulations. Oh, boy, guys, Finding laws and policies

is exhausting sometimes. Have you done this? Oh, man, Google searches, they just don't cut it, right? The government and big corporations, they are notorious for providing too much information and it's not accessible. They don't have it in an easily searchable format. So you spend hours searching for this stuff. AI takes this the extra mile and it will help you find the law, regulation or policy or whatever to tell you why

it thinks it's relevant. So here, ask AI. We want to expand our efforts in the shipping business by starting direct shipments between Cuba and the U .S. What are the laws, regulations and policies which might get in the way of that business? And how would they be limiting? That's just to get you started. You might not be in the shipping business. Translate this to whatever your business is. But if you're trying to do a new function, If you're a project manager or a leader and they're saying, hey, we're going to try this now.

and you don't know what the laws, policies, procedures are, instead of just Googling, Ask AI. It will help you. It can even explain it to you. You can have whole conversations back and forth about it. So remember that one. It's it's been super helpful for me. Number eight, come up with creative ways to write better. AI is my brainstorming buddy, and man, I love it. Imagine you have a presentation that seems kind of dull. Here's Ask AI.

Brainstorm 10 engaging titles for my presentation on the 2022 federal budget. Try this. You'll be so amazed at what it comes up with to make it sound at least a little more interesting than imagine that slideshow. The presentation on the 2022 federal budget versus some of the titles that it gives you. And here's a tip when you do ask for a certain number of options.

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That way it's going to give you 10 ideas and you can pick and choose. Sometimes the first one and the fifth one are really good. So I take the first part of the first one and the second part of the fifth one and I put them together and that becomes my title. Ask for multiple options when you're brainstorming with AI. Super helpful. Number nine, learn quick. Imagine this, it's 2 p .m. and your boss walks in and says, Hey,

I want you to sit in on this interview for a new project manager in the database administration group. You're not in that group, but this is tangential. This person will be overseeing the work with our data that's housed in Amazon Web Services. And let's assume you don't know anything about that tech. So ask AI. My boss just asked me to sit in on an interview for a project manager in our database administration team.

with our data that's housed in Amazon Web Services. What type of interview questions should I ask to make sure that they A, understand the topic and B, would be a good leader for that group?

Those ideas that it gives you will help you create some great questions so that when you walk into that room, you're prepared, even though you might not be an expert. on these areas off the bat. If you need to learn quick so that you can help do something at work, man, AI is a wonderful resource to at least get you to start to get you up to speed, to get you off the ground and get you started. Now, I want to share five bonus

personal business use. The nine that I just shared are business uses. but I want to share these five. I told you 14. These are five that are personal uses because AI is something I use in my personal life pretty frequently as well. So here's five ways I've used AI in my personal life that's been a huge help. You try these for yourself, or you can just laugh about it and laugh at me about it, but this is a funny thing. So number 10, a parking ticket.

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Imagine you walk up to your car and you have a parking ticket sitting on your windshield. So ask AI. I just got a parking ticket in whatever city and state for parking for three hours in a two hour zone. Is there a way for me to get out of it? And here's a funny story. When I did this, it turned out that my particular town that I was in at the time had some sort of.

program where if you had had too much to drink and you get a parking ticket, but you couldn't drive home, then you could wave. You could get the they would waive the ticket and there were something you had to submit. It was like a, you know, you had a receipt showing that you were at whatever restaurant nearby at the time or something and they would wave your ticket. and that worked for me, and I had no idea that this program even existed, but that was AI. So it just, it's such a funny thing, but it.

Help me out so it can help you with, you know, advice or like I said, it's a place to start. Awesome. Number 11, Permits. Imagine you're about to add a new deck to your house. You're not sure if you need a permit for that. And I don't know about you, but have you looked through the permit situation or tried to get into that? Because man, oh, it's been so it's so frustrating sometimes to get to get permit information. So ask AI. I'm about to add a deck.

to my home. Do I need any permits for this kind of work? If so, how do I get those permits if I live in your city and state? Ask it and see it helped me so much when I was looking through. I was in Arlington, Virginia, and I needed to find out about permits because I was on the H .O .A. board and there was a question about permits and I don't know much about permits. I'm not an expert on that, but.

AI told me where I went and I was able to find the relevant information that I needed for that. It was so helpful. Number 12, recipes. Here's a fun one. Imagine you're moving in two weeks and you need to start using up the leftovers that are in the fridge and the pantry. You've been in this situation. It's happened to me each time I move and you don't want to let that stuff go to waste. So ask AI. I'm moving next week and

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I'm trying to use up everything in my pantry. What recipes could I use to make, what could I make, what recipes could I make using the following ingredients? Frozen pre -grilled chicken, frozen spinach, marinara sauce, a can of black beans, and a can of pears. It works. AI sent me recipes for this exact situation. I couldn't believe it. And.

It's so helpful sometimes to be able to give it the ingredients and let it find the recipe for you. And I know that there's websites that will do this for you. And this capability isn't new, but it's much easier to just type this little paragraph. Or even if you're a pro, if you're trying to be pro, you can dictate, use the little microphone feature and you can type speech to text, speech to text this into the AI prompt and hit the button and see what it gives you. You'll be amazed at the ideas that it gives you. Number 13.

travel recommendations. Imagine you're traveling for work and you have six hours to kill after the work thing is done before you go to the airport. So ask AI, I have six hours until I need to leave for the airport from this address, wherever you are. What are the top three things I could or should do while I'm there in that time that I can walk to nearby?

AI can give you ideas. It'll find this information. So that's been really handy when I've been traveling for work or traveling even personally if there's time to kill or something and you're just looking for ideas, it'll give you some good ideas.

Add humor to your speech. Here's number 14. Imagine you're giving the best man speech at your friend's wedding. You have a heartfelt speech, but you feel it's kind of heavy and you're looking for ways to lighten it up a little bit. So ask AI. I need a couple of funny one -liners for my best man speech that I'm giving at a wedding. Give me 10 options for quick jokes that I can incorporate. Now I've used this for

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A toast, I've used this in a couple of speeches or presentations that I've given, if I'm looking for one liners. It's really helpful to ask for these anecdotes. So there's number 14. Ask for ideas, for humor, for your stuff. So two quick things to close out this Knowledge Drop episode. First, that was 14 ideas. The online course I told you about that I shared on this topic for using AI has

54 prompts. And what I love is I'm giving you example data to use. It's step by step instructions. Go here, do this. Here's the data. You put this in. And so I love it because I'm really able to. I'm an instructor. I'm a teacher at heart. And I love getting people up to speed on this stuff. And so it's so cool to me to be able to actually give you all the things and then you're going to type it in and you're going to see how it works for you on your computer. Real live. I love that. So if you're already experienced

with using AI, this might expand your knowledge a little bit. It's I mean, 54 prompts is going to be some great practice to really hone those skills that you've already started. And if you're a holdout, if you're one of those folks, I meet them a lot, by the way, there's still there's some stat, I think only 20, 30, 40 percent of the population has actually logged in and tried AI. They've just heard about it, but they've never actually touched it. So if you're one of those holdouts who hasn't really dabbled in AI yet.

If you don't have an account with chat GPT or Claude or Gemini or some of these names that you might've heard about on the news, this is going to be a thorough and welcoming intro that you can apply the learning right away so that you can get hands on and have this experience. So the reason I'm so excited about this is that for my entire career, my training was always with private training for business clients who brought me in for their folks. So I just love that I now have this way to teach it with you directly.

So last thing before with the wrap is please share this episode specifically. If you have a friend that you talk to about AI stuff, would you text them the link to this episode specifically? I say this because for me, when I share a specific episode with someone, the text back and forth via text, right, directly, not share it on social media, but actually text someone with the episode itself.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:56.43)

The back and forth that happens is always so much more rewarding in that relationship with that person, more so than anything that happens when I share something on social media or just a general share or that kind of thing. So thanks for giving it a try. And of course, thank you for the likes, the follows, the subscribes, the reviews. I really appreciate. I love sharing this productivity gladiator thing with you. That's a wrap.

What Is Your Productivity Animal? Understand Your Natural Tendencies - with Chris Croft

Chris Croft, an author and speaker on productivity and happiness, joins Brian on the show to share his unique "productivity animal" framework. He explains how different animal personalities represent different combinations of goals, efficiency, enjoyment, and achievement. The banter between Chris and Brian is humorous and insightful. Take the quiz to find out your Productivity Animal, and tune in to find out what it means.

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The Audio/Podcast

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Links to References In This Episode

• Chris Croft’s Productivity Animal Quiz

• Chris Croft’s website

• Chris Croft’s Books - Amazon - Goodreads

• BOOK: The book by Victor Frankl, Man’s Search For Meaning, that Brian mentioned - Goodreads - Amazon

• Chris’s Youtube Video: Time Management In Under 8 Minutes

• BOOK: 10 Natural Laws of Successful Time and Life Management by Hyrum W. Smith - Goodreads - Amazon

• BOOK: Getting Things Done by David Allen - Amazon - Goodreads

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Episode Digest

Chris Croft’s Productivity Animal Quiz

Your Productivity Animal: Achieve More by Understanding Your Natural Tendencies

We all want to be productive - to achieve our goals while still enjoying life. But the reality is, most of us struggle to find that ideal balance between efficiency, achievement, and happiness. In this insightful podcast, author and speaker Chris Croft introduces his creative "Productivity Animal" framework to help individuals identify their natural productivity styles and what shifts are needed to reach their full potential.

The Genesis: Goals, Enjoyment, Achievement

Croft's animal archetypes stem from his realization that true fulfillment comes from a harmonious blend of goal-setting, enjoyment, and achievement across all life domains - work and home. As he mapped this out visually: Goals and Efficiency are the "inputs" that lead to the "outputs" of Enjoyment and Achievement.

Croft emphasized the crucial role of defined goals: "If you set a goal, it's like putting a destination in your GPS - every day you'll make decisions pointing you toward that end point." Yet goals alone are insufficient; you need efficiency and discipline to propel you forward on that journey. As Croft summarized: "Goals make you more disciplined and assertive, so you go faster in the right direction."

The Productivity Animals Revealed

So which animal represents your current productivity style? Croft outlines six key archetypes:

The Greyhound: Efficient but goalless, the metaphor of chasing the incentives round and round a track but never really getting anywhere. "If you don't have GPS set, you'll just drive at random and end up in a swamp. A shocking 38% of people who took my quiz are Greyhounds - hard workers lacking goals and a clear purpose.”

“If you don’t have GPS set, you’ll just drive at random and end up in a swamp. A shocking 38% of people who took my quiz are Greyhounds - hard workers lacking goals and a clear purpose.”

— Chris Croft

The Kangaroo: Enjoyment-seekers living purely in the moment, devoid of goals or efficiency. "You can do this in your 20s, but eventually you need to get a grip on what you want to achieve."

The Mountain Goat: Relentlessly pursuing goals while forgetting to enjoy the journey. "Like goats scaling a mountain but never stopping to admire the view." At risk of burnout from all work and no play.

The Soaring Eagle: The ideal state - crystal clear on goals, efficient in pursuit of them, while still making time for enjoyment in all life areas. "If you have the right mix of home/work and joy/achievement goals - you've got life sussed."

““If you have the right mix of home/work and joy/achievement goals - you’ve got life sussed.””

— Chris Croft

The Koala: Has goals but is inefficient. These people are often dreamers, who have high aspirations but don’t seem to accomplish any of their dreams. This also might be where someone who has “golden handcuffs” sits, which means they’ve got a great paying job, and are afraid to lose it to try for something more.

The Tortoise: Doesn't have goals and is also not efficient. They don't achieve anything and they don't enjoy themselves. And these are the people who plod through life and they're just unhappy and they just go, well, what can you do? I'll just have to carry on doing this job that I hate. They have all sorts of potential if only somebody told them. They're just plodding along through the grass thinking, well just have to eat grass again today.

You Evolve & Change Throughout Your Life

Once you identify your animal, Croft provides wisdom on evolving toward the enlightened Eagle. For Greyhounds, it's simply a matter of getting clear on goals to give your work purpose. Kangaroos need to find a motivating vision to work toward. And Goats must embrace enjoyment and inject play into their relentless pursuit of success.

The Hedonic Treadmill Trap

But even the lofty Eagles must guard against a insidious productivity pitfall - the "hedonic treadmill." This is where you achieve a goal like running a marathon, only to immediately start chasing the next goal without pausing to celebrate. You buy your dream car, but a few weeks later, the thrill is gone and you're longing for the next material prize.

To counter this, Croft advises setting a mix of achievement and enjoyment goals across life domains. "If all your goals are financial, you'll just want newer cars. Have goals like writing a book or performing music too." He also stresses regularly re-evaluating your goals, letting go of completed ones, and setting new inspiring challenges.

The Path to Soaring

The key takeaway? We're all a work-in-progress on the path toward becoming more productive, purposeful, and joyful. Knowing your current productivity animal is the first step. From there, implement Croft's wisdom to integrate the missing elements - whether that's defined goals, improved efficiency, or scheduled enjoyment.

As Croft summarizes: "The Eagle must continually ask - what's next? How do I follow up Everest? Because it's never finished...you climb one mountain only to see a bigger one on the horizon." A meaningful, fulfilling life is a perpetual journey of striving towards elevated visions of achievement and happiness. Embrace your productive nature, but keep soaring toward your highest ideals.

““The Eagle must continually ask - what’s next? How do I follow up Everest? Because it’s never finished...you climb one mountain only to see a bigger one on the horizon.””

— Chris Croft

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Today’s Guest

Chris Croft
Author, Speaker, Trainer
on Productivity & Happiness

Chris Croft is one of the world's leading trainers, having provided courses to over 87,000 people in-person and a staggering 18 million online across platforms like LinkedIn Learning, Udemy, and YouTube. With top-selling courses on project management, happiness, negotiation skills, and more, Croft has cultivated a massive global following - his tip of the month email reaches over 20,000 subscribers. A prolific author and former chartered engineer with an MBA from Cambridge, Croft brings decades of corporate experience and an interactive, practical teaching style to help professionals achieve more while finding greater fulfillment.

Website: chriscroft.co.uk

Linkedin Learning: linkedin.com/learning/instructors/chris-croft

LinkedIn Contact: linkedin.com/in/chriscrofttraining/

Chris Croft’s Books - Amazon - Goodreads

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About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. These Gladiators wield email management superpowers, a laser-guided ability to focus, samurai-grade prioritization skills, a sniper-precise task tracking approach, Jedi time management skills, and a secret sauce for maximizing their personal life balance. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer, and on this show I dive into personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, we're finding out what's your productivity animal. I've been so excited about this. I found out there's a little quiz that I'm going to give you the link to. I found out I'm a soaring eagle. What on earth does that mean? Chris is here and we're going to find out what yours is. And we'll dive in now, just as a primer, I'm going to introduce Chris. But before I do, I'm going to get the link to this little quiz is going to be in the episode notes of this episode.

So right now, before you listen, if you want to find out what your animal is, so when Chris tells us about all this, pause the episode right now and jump in there and take the quiz and then hit play again and come back or take it while we're talking. But let's jump in. But I've got the link for you right there so you can find out what your productivity animal is. So now with me on the show today is Chris Croft. Now he's an author and a speaker on productivity and happiness. Chris, thanks so much for being here with me.

Chris Croft

Well, thank you for having me. It's great. Great. I love it. I love talking about my animals in particular. So yeah, thank you for having me, Brian.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah. So for people who aren't familiar with you, you talk about productivity and happiness, share a little bit about you and your background on this topic. And then of course, where do these animals come from?

Chris Croft

Yeah, well, I started out as an engineer. I don't know, at school I didn't have very good memory but I could do maths. So I sort of went into engineering. I was not a very good engineer though, too much detail. Went into management and I was quite a good manager but I didn't enjoy it. I had to do horrible things to people and stress. And I just thought, I don't want to do this my whole life. And then I escaped out into being a university lecturer and then a freelance trainer. And training is what I love doing, it's great.

I've mostly been teaching time management and project management. So real efficiency stuff, but I keep coming back to the idea of happiness as well, because what's the point of time management if it, if it doesn't make you happy and that's what first got me started thinking about these animals actually, um, because I was very efficient and organized, but not achieving very much.

And I first started thinking about this actually when I was playing in a band, I play the saxophone quite badly. Anyway, I was in this really loud rock band with, with sax added and, um, all the other people.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Nice, I play the drums. Also, saxophone and loud rock bands don't always go together. Okay.

Chris Croft

Well, yeah, but Bruce Springsteen, you know, he obviously Clarence Clemens no longer with us, unfortunately, what a god he was. But there's a occasion you get it, but not very often, you're right. So, so anyway, the other people in the band were quite different to me, because I, you know, did my engineering degree, and I was very organized. And the other people in the band were all smoking unusual cigarettes and stuff like that. And I've never really met people like that before. I went to a pretty tough boarding school and things. And suddenly I'm with these guys who were just spaced out and disorganized and they would ring up and say, hey, Chris, are we playing tonight? And I'd go, yeah, I gave you a list of all the gigs. And they go, oh yeah, I've lost that. I think I may have smoked it or something, rolled it up or whatever. And then they'd say, oh, Chris, my car's broken down. Can you come and get me? And I'd be going, oh, so I go and fetch them. But I give them this lecture on car maintenance on the way to the gig, you know. And I...

At the time I looked down on them because they were so disorganized. I used to think their life is a shambles. How can they live their life like that? And, and one day I was installing all the wires into the sort of, into the mixing desk, because I was the only person who really understood the mixing desk. Cause I'd read the manual and all that. And, and they were down the other end, just having a laugh and having a drink or whatever. And it suddenly dawned on me that maybe they had a better life than me, you know, as they were just having fun.

And there was me like Mr. Organized, but I was organized, but I wasn't achieving any more than them, you know. And so it made me think, what is life all about? And at that moment, when I was sort of like 22 in that pub with my saxophone, I suddenly thought, have they got life sus? But I kind of knew they hadn't either, you know, I didn't, because the problem with them, they just go for happiness straight away, just what's the most fun option in any situation? Should we practice or should we party? Oh, we'll party. And yet they complained that the band wasn't famous and why weren't they on TV and things. And of course, until you get a grip and record an album and market it, you're not gonna be famous. So I was thinking their style of life is not sustainable. You can do it for a few years, but at some point it's gonna bug you that you're not making progress, you're not achieving stuff. And so I started thinking that maybe the whole point of life is to somehow achieve, but also enjoy yourself, achieve and enjoy. Okay. And by the way, while we're on that, I've got a theory that the meaning of life might as well do the meaning of life, shall we? Yeah, we're diving in.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

We're diving in. Chris was like, Chris goes, oh, productivity animals? Shoot, we're going right to the meaning of life. Okay.

Chris Croft

Yeah. Well, we're going to come to the animals because they were kangaroos and I was a greyhound, but I'll explain why in a minute. So I'm just going to draw the meaning of life over here. And I think the meaning of life is to enjoy yourself as much as you can, but also to achieve stuff. And in a way, you could say enjoyment is about the present and achieving is about the future. So you might have to do stuff you don't want to do right now in order to achieve later, like studying, taking exams and stuff. So, so you want to get the most out of the present, which would be enjoy. And by the way, I think I'm doing both at the moment talking to you. It's great because I'm really enjoying it. But also we're recording this podcast, which will give me a feeling of achievement and perhaps have an effect on the people who see it and things. So you can do both. But, but, but some people just do a lot of enjoyment, they never achieve anything. And some people achieve stuff, but they forget to enjoy themselves. And that's another one of my animals I'll come to.

And then, but the other dimension on this chart is home and work. So I think quite a lot of people's plan is to enjoy themselves at home, by home I just mean outside of work really, enjoy themselves at home and then achieve stuff at work. And that's their plan. And sometimes they don't do particularly well at either by the way, like some people don't even enjoy their home life. They've got a wife or a husband who they don't really like or, you know, well they...

I don't know, they just don't seem to enjoy their life much. And then there's other people who, they actually don't achieve that much at work. They just turn up and do the minimum or whatever, which I don't think is a good plan. But most of us vaguely kind of want to do those two things, I think. But clearly, you know what I'm gonna say, which would be, it'd be quite a good idea to enjoy your work as well. If you could find a job that you enjoy, wouldn't that be good? And also, I think achieve some things outside of work because you don't want your only achievement to be at work. Because when they suddenly lay you off one day, and after 30 years of loyal service, not that I'm bitter, you sort of think, is that it? All I've done is increase the sales in Minnesota by 3%. And that's the sum of my life or whatever. And often your work goals feel a bit trivial. Nothing wrong with Minnesota, by the way. It's the first place I thought of.

But you can see that achieving at work is not enough. You want to achieve some stuff in your personal life as well. Write that children's book and upload it to Amazon or whatever it might be that you want to do. So I'm not, by achievement, I don't mean being famous. I mean doing things that you'll feel proud of that you feel good about. And it might be, you know, making your own dining table or it might be playing in a band, you know, just playing in a bar, enjoying yourself. And if you people know the words or something.

So we're not talking about being famous, because actually I think being famous may not make you happy, but that's a whole other subject I don't know the answer to. Yeah, so anyway, I was starting to think about enjoy and achieve particularly. And so on my animals chart that I'm gonna show you here, I've got inputs and outputs. I'll just write that on here.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

And if you're tuning in, well, he's, I know he sounds like he's disappearing from the mic a little bit. And he's, what's happening is if you haven't checked out the video, he also, if you want to watch the video, he's got a board behind him that he's starting to describe this stuff. So if you're listening, we'll describe it for you. And if you're watching, you'll see what he's writing on the board behind him. So this is fascinating. Keep going, Chris. Just wanted to hear.

Chris Croft

Yeah, if you're watching, you'll see that he looks a little bit like Brad Pitt, like a sort of even more intelligent version of Brad Pitt.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

You clearly need to watch the video. If you haven't seen this man write? It's a beautiful thing. Absolutely. Ha ha ha.

Chris Croft

Well, this black pen I'm going to use next, that's my favorite, but it's really good. You get loads of ink, but it does make a slight squeaky sound. But at least people who are on audio only will know that I'm writing. Uh, so that's good. So yeah, we'll describe it. Won't we, as we go along. So you don't, if you haven't got video, it's fine. It'll make sense. So we've got these outputs, um, and the outputs are to, um, enjoy yourself, but also to achieve.

I'm going to put enjoy and achieve as the two outputs. It is squeaky actually, isn't it? Just be glad it's not right near the.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

This is really, this is fun. So he's got inputs on one side of the chart, outputs on the other side, and enjoy and achieve are under the outputs. Okay, I'm following you.

Chris Croft

Yeah. But what are the inputs? Because there are things you can do, which are going to lead to either enjoyment or achievement. Okay. And I think the big two inputs are to have goals and to be efficient. Okay. So I'm just going to write that one there and I'm going to explain what I mean. So I'm going to put here goals and efficiency. Yeah. And obviously time management is efficiency. So.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Interesting. Okay. So under input, there's goals and being efficient. Okay.

Chris Croft

So when we were, and what we're gonna come to in a minute, you'll see that some people have goals, but they're not efficient. And that just means they have a dream, but they never do anything about it. They don't get on and get organized and make it happen. And then there are other people who are efficient, but don't have goals. And this was me with the band. So I was just efficiently organizing something that just went around in circles really. And so on my little chart,

That's the first one I'm going to have. So I'm going to say I didn't have goals, but I did have efficiency.

And so I was organized, I had my little checklists and things, but what was the point? And what it meant was that I wasn't achieving.

And that bugged me really. In fact, I wasn't really even enjoying it as much as them, because I was too busy being the organizer. So I was on one out of four. And I realized at that moment that being efficient without going somewhere is never going to work. And I thought, what animal shall I call that? And I've decided on the greyhound for that one.

I'll explain why. We have a Greyhound racing track near where I live. Do you have Greyhound racing in the States or is that an English thing? Dog racing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

We sure do. I would say you're coming to us if they don't know you're over in the UK. And I'm on the US side. And yes, Greyhound Racing is definitely a thing in the US as well.

Chris Croft

Yeah. So we had a Greyhound, there was a hole in the fence and we had a Greyhound that went straight on and it went through the hole. And it just went for about 20 miles in a straight line. It went all the way to somewhere called Weymouth, which is like a long way away from here. And nobody could catch it. This dog was just gone. And I think they got it back eventually. But when I was listening to that story, I was thinking that a lot of people just go round in circles like the Greyhounds, chasing after that sort of fluffy fox thing they chase after and their life, people's lives can, if you're not careful, just be Monday to Friday, just going around in circles doing stuff for your boss and the weekend, maybe you sort of clean the car or whatever. And if we're not careful, we have routines and we just go in circles. But if you had a goal like that greyhound and you just went in a straight line, you know, it could be epic. So that's the first animal, the person who's efficient but doesn't have goals. And a lot of people are like this. In fact, the greyhound is the commonest animal

I've been doing the stats from this questionnaire that Brian mentioned earlier on, you can do online. It's free. It's very quick. It'll tell you which animal you are. And 38% of people are greyhounds. So a third of the people who do that test are greyhounds, which is really interesting. And that's because nobody's told them about the fact that you can have goals. And if you set goals, it'll change your life. And I don't know whether you've done many podcasts on goals, Brian, but goals are just huge, aren't they? Would you agree?

Brian Nelson-Palmer

It's a big, it's a big part of it. Chris, it's goals and what I love, it's so funny. I teach, I also have a workshop that I teach on life balance and what is included in life balance. And I love the overlap that you and I have is very similar in that you describe it as efficiency and goals. And I talk about the goals and the journey as being the two pieces that you need. Cause if you have one without the other,

Chris Croft

Yeah, you've got to embark on the journey, otherwise you're just a dreamer, aren't you?

Brian Nelson-Palmer

I love it. Yeah, we're totally, oh my gosh, I'm sitting here and I'm just nodding going, yes, totally. Greyhound would not be a good life forever and ever. And I think it's also possible that you might go in and out of Greyhound status and then people have midlife crisis and they suddenly realize they've been a Greyhound for 10 years with efficiency and no goals. And they're like, what am I doing? What have I done with my life? So if you're having one of those moments, like it's an amazing wake up call. And...

Chris Croft

going faster and faster doesn't help because you just go around in a circle faster. Yeah. In fact, you have less time probably to think as you go really fast in a circle. So yeah, we totally agree on that. And by the way, you mustn't spend ages on goals, but just a little thing that I've been thinking about with goals that I hope you like is why does having goals and preferably writing them down make them much more likely to happen? And I think there are two reasons, direction and speed.

If you set a goal, it's a bit like putting a destination into your GPS, you will get there. Every day you make little decisions and your mind will take you a little bit towards that goal. In fact, it's very like a GPS because sometimes you take a wrong turning or there's a roadblock, but it doesn't matter because the next turning will be right. If you miss a turning, your GPS recalculates and it says your journey will take two minutes longer. It's usually nothing if you miss a turning. It doesn't matter.

So as you go through life, you'll not always follow the GPS and you'll make mistakes, et cetera, but you will get there. Whereas if you don't have GPS set, you'll just drive at random and you'll end up in a swamp in Alabama or somewhere. And maybe you didn't wanna go there. Although I actually do want to visit Alabama because I've got a feeling the food's gonna be great, but that's another subject.

It's one of the states I haven't been to. I've been to New Orleans and food was interesting there. But anyway, and Missouri, oh, the food was good in Missouri. Yeah, they had a thing like, was it called a barbecue restaurant or something? And you went in there and you just had a big pile of meat. It was so good. The fried chicken. Anyway, so, yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Phenomenal right? Alright, Chris. So listen, we were talking about if you got that thing in Alabama, that spot in Alabama better have a pile of meat. Now we know this is how Chris.

Chris Croft

Yeah, exactly. Better have a part of me, alligator stew or something. So, so that's direction is one thing, but also if you have goals, you'll go faster because you'll be more disciplined and more assertive and all your time waste has come from either you, you know, flicking through Instagram or something, or they come from other people hijacking your time to achieve their goals instead of yours. And so to go faster, you have to be more disciplined and that comes from having goals to focus on.

And you have to be more assertive about other people. And that comes from having goals because I haven't got time to do that because I want to do this. So goals make you more disciplined and more assertive and therefore you go faster in the right direction. So anyway, for all these reasons, goals really, really work. And the poor old Greyhounds have just never been told about goals probably because they don't teach you that at school, do they? I mean, it's like a kind of secret that you and I have discovered and-

My list of goals, I mean, when I wrote them down, they all happened within a couple of years. They happened. I couldn't believe it. So I did another list and that one happened. I'm on my third list now and it's big. You know, once you discover that whatever you write down is going to happen, I mean, you can write to some big things down.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

And Chris, if we're in, I do a similar thing. I started a year in review practice about three, four years ago. And I have every year at the end of the year, I do an assessment and I actually did. I've got a podcast episode on this if you're curious about it, because I publish what my I do my self assessment and then I put it on social media. If you're friends with me, I put it on social media because now and not only that it's public, but what's also been amazing is in that goal, I talk about what went well, what didn't go well, what was frustrating, what were the things I said I was going to do, and I'm reporting out now, last year I said I was going to do this, how did it go, and then this year here are my intentions, and I'm going to do this and this, and then the next year I do the same thing, and I report on the last year, and what you're talking about, that goals thing, man, that's been a very powerful thing, because you, like you said, direction

Every year I am course correcting and looking at the direction and going, all right, I want a little more of this. I want to change this. But it's about your whole life. It's not you talked about home and work. And I so agree. You got to do assessment on both. It's not just one or just the other.

Chris Croft

Home and work, achieve and enjoy.

Yeah. And people say, is it okay to change my goals? Yeah, every year you should be readjusting because every year you realize that one's not so good after all and this is more interesting, you've discovered something else. So absolutely, all the time you climb one mountain, you see another one then, a bigger one perhaps or a different one. So yeah, absolutely. You should always be adjusting and adding to your goals and finding what other people's are. So maybe you can pinch a few ideas from them for goals you can have and things. So.

Anyway, I will be quicker on the other animals, but that's the greyhound. Okay. And if all they have to do is add goals, because they've done the difficult part, they've, they're already efficient. They've just got to add their goals, but without goals, you won't achieve anything. And you probably won't have that much fun either, but that takes me to my second animal, which is the kangaroo.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

So we got the first line was the Greyhound and the Greyhound is, it has goals. It does not have goals, but is efficient and it does not necessarily enjoy life and you don't necessarily achieve anything. So now the Kangaroo.

Chris Croft

or achieve. We can, I don't know whether we can give out a sheet with all these on, but you can also, if you go to my website, you'll be able to find a little table of all the animals. And if you do the questionnaire, it'll tell you all about the pros and cons of your particular animal. Anyway.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

I was gonna say, I hope you've already taken the quiz to find out. We haven't gotten to your animal yet, but it's coming. So I hope you took the quiz already. So go ahead. Yeah, Chris, the kangaroo.

Chris Croft

Yeah. So the kangaroo is really the other people in the band. Cause what they were doing is they, they didn't have goals really. Uh, and they were definitely not efficient, but they were enjoying themselves. They weren't achieving anything. So they only get one tick as well. Whereas the Greyhound just had a tick on efficiency. These ones have a tick on enjoyment. Um,

But as we said at the beginning, it's probably not sustainable over a long period to keep just being a kangaroo. You know, you can do it in your twenties. If I would recommend doing it in your twenties, but at some point you have to get a grip and decide what am I going to do with my life? But, but, but actually.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Chris, you and I are about helping people and we just told everybody in their 20s to go be pot smoking band members. I love that this is what you've done too.

Chris Croft

Well, I'm not sure about the pot side of things, but I do think, I think it's okay to have a bit of fun before, because actually you're learning while you're having fun and you're, you're deciding what you like doing, what you don't like doing. And, and you're, you know, cause I know some very serious people in their early twenties and I'm thinking, you know, and they go, I want to run a company. I want to be rich and successful. And I'm thinking, but you don't even know what the options are yet really. So maybe the fool around to have a bit of fun is, is an option.

But probably without too many drugs because they're bad for your brain and your brain is your most valuable tool you've got in life, isn't it? So anyway.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

That's so true. When you finally come out of your 20s and you're ready to be in your 30s, if all you did was a lot of drugs, then you're never gonna be able to climb on top of that mountain you wanna climb because your biggest muscle that you need to do that is now like, man, it's, yes. The long-term implications of it, well, it's really enjoyable at the time. Yeah.

Chris Croft

Yeah. At the very least you've just wasted 10 years. So yeah, but I would recommend, for example, traveling and going to somewhere like India, just to see, and it'll just broaden your mind. You'll have ideas, you know, all that sort of stuff in your twenties for sure. So anyway, that's the kangaroo. And I know a few people who are kangaroos. And I, in a way, I envy the way they can just party with no thought of tomorrow, but it's not sustainable. And in the end, it bugs them because they're not achieving. They're enjoying, but they're not achieving. And that bugs them. But if they're going to achieve, then they're going to have to have goals and be efficient. Because you can't achieve without knowing what you're trying to achieve and without being reasonably efficient as well. And you may say, well, some kangaroos could live their whole life like that. But all the ones I know are actually a bit annoyed that they haven't achieved anything. But the people I know in bands, they always want the band to be famous. Why are we not successful? And I'm thinking, well, it's pretty obvious.

You know, it does bug them. Everyone wants to achieve something. I think it's built into us to have a need to achieve.

So, going back to me as the Greyhound, I realized that I wasn't achieving anything. And I decided that efficiency wasn't enough, but I had to be going somewhere, like the Greyhound going in a straight line. So, I got some, I was gonna say I sat down and wrote out some goals, but actually it happened because a friend of mine told me about goals at just the right moment. And I thought,

That's why I'm going round in circles. So it was a big, I was probably mid twenties. So I'm gonna put a tick on goals and I was already very efficient and organized. I was just that sort of person. And it was pretty good. I started to achieve quite a lot of things. And my goal was at the time, I decided to be a senior manager. I was actually working for a helicopter company and I knew that the directors.

all had big cars. I still am into cars actually. I just thought, oh, I'd like a car like that. It's a bit sad because there is more to life than cars, although cars are great. I decided that I would set a goal to be a senior manager and to be well paid and also to make a difference because I wanted to make a difference to the company. I thought there were loads of things wrong with the helicopter factory. I thought if I was a senior manager, I could get a lot of it sorted out.

I was wrong about that, by the way, because, you know, as you get more senior in a company, you have affect a wider area, but you affect it less. So instead of 100% of one person yourself, you have 1% effect on 100 people. And it's still, it's still the same I felt. So, so anyway, I what happened really was that I was achieving a certain amount, but I wasn't really enjoying it.

And I think a lot of people who go up the management tree, sorry, I'm just getting my throat there. A lot of people who go up the management tree find that they've achieved quite a lot, but they don't really enjoy it. They have to work long hours and they have to almost sell their soul to the devil a little bit. And of course there are good companies and bad companies. And I was, I think a bit unlucky in where I was, but I felt I was selling my soul to the devil. And I just didn't enjoy being a boss.

And I've called this the mountain goat.

I was trying to think of an animal that sort of goes up a mountain, but doesn't really seem to have much fun while it's doing it. And the best animal I can think of was the goat, the mountain goat. Now, I just want to stress at this point, by the way, that you're not stuck with an animal for your whole life. So if you're thinking, oh no, I'm a goat, then that's fine. Because all you have to do is sort out the enjoyment part. So all you have to do is make sure you get that home life balance and don't spend too much time at work.

but also have some enjoyment goals. So my little matrix of enjoy and achieve, often the goat people have, they have goals for achieving both at home and at work. I'm going to build my own house and I'm going to do this. And it's all achieve, achieve. And they forget to have fun along the way. They could actually take a lesson from a kangaroo really. So yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah, you know, there's Chris, there's a I'm reminded of a quote and I reference it a lot in my session on life balance. We talk about because I talked to I told you I talk about the journey. And one of the things there's a quote from oh, my goodness, I'm going to forget the name of now that I need it. There's a quote, Victor Frankl and the meaning of life is the book. And he this the story is from him. He was a psychiatrist or a psychologist that went to the Nazi concentration camps.

And he talked about what he knew they knew in the camps. You all got to know each other really well because you spend all day in a camp together and you're sleeping in the same place. And so they got to know when that person was gonna die within a week in the camp. And the way that they knew it was because you could tell that the other questions, you always have the questions on why am I here? What am I doing? The questioning, like you said, you don't have the goals. Like,

You need goals and where you're headed. And all of a sudden they weren't on their journey anymore. And the way it showed up is they were just, they were like, I don't want to do this anymore. Why am I here? And I saw the same thing with my grandmother before she was going to pass away. She was a hundred years old and she was not on her journey anymore. She was not enjoying her journey because she was like, why am I still here? And like, this isn't fun anymore.

Chris Croft

Yeah. If you're not enjoying it and also you've got nothing left to achieve, then what's the point?

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Right. So I share that because like you're talking about the goat and what's amazing is, man, it's about the achieving but figuring out the journey, which you're talking about enjoyment. And for me, I talk about it as the journey. That's what Victor Frankl was talking about, which is you need to stay on a journey and enjoy your journey, but make sure you're still journeying. Because if you ever get there, that's the end. And so especially by the way, if you have seen your parents or anything and they're not on a journey anymore. You'll see it. They'll tell you things like this isn't fun anymore or waiting to die or when they start talking about that stuff, that journey piece and the goals, what are they working toward? Are they learning anymore? Are they growing? And if they're not, get them back on that train cause otherwise they're at the end. So I-

Chris Croft

Yeah. I've still got my dad, he's 93 and he's learning croquet and he's having an extension built on his house and he's, he's doing, he's, you know, still got loads of projects he's doing and he's enjoying them as well as achieving them. So yeah, absolutely. It's great. And actually you reminded me when you said the journey there that I think a really good example of this is that some people climb mountains because they really want to see the view from the top and they hate the process of climbing the mountain, but they think it's worth it just for the view from the top. You know, like you get one minute on top of Mount Everest before you start to die or whatever, you got to quickly come back down and you have to get back down before it's dark, et cetera. So they do it all for that one minute going, yes, I'm on top of the world. But that's crazy because most of life is the journey. Just as most of climbing Mount Everest is the journey. In fact, all of life is the journey really. And you may be climbing mountains down on top, but what do you do then?

You're going to climb another one, aren't you? So the key is to enjoy the journey. And if you can enjoy climbing the mountain and the view from the top, then that's great. Then you're doing enjoy and achieve, aren't you, rather than just achieve. I mean, imagine just crossing off mountains, even though you didn't enjoy climbing them. I mean, that would be pointless. So, you know, the great mountaineers obviously enjoy the process of climbing the mountain.

And it's the same with whatever you're doing in life. You've got to enjoy, you know, building your shed or building your business or going to see customers or you got to enjoy as much as you can of all of it, haven't you? And so the goat has kind of forgotten about enjoyment because they're too busy working on it. And I've got various ambitious friends who are making quite a lot of money, but they're never available to see them. They're always busy. And when you do see them, they're kind of distracted because they're thinking about work and, oh, hang on a minute. A phone call has just come in. There's a crisis. What? Oh no. Sorry, Chris, I got to go and all this. And I just think you've forgotten to have any fun. You've got all this money, but why aren't you having a good time? And with some people, the more money they make, the more things they have to worry about, the more things can go wrong. So, so anyway, that that's the goat. And I think it's so easy to fall into that kind of career trap of being a goat. But you're so nearly there as a goat because all you gotta do is get a few enjoyment goals in and get your work-life balance pushed back a bit against long hours and you can do it because you've got both your inputs sorted. Well, you just haven't got that the input called goals is just a bit lopsided because it's kind of too much work goals and too much achieve goals. And there should be some enjoyment goals and some outside work goals as well, and then you can get the balance better. Anyway, that's the goat. Now, while we're sort of just moving on from the goat, I'm going to mention the one that you got, which is the eagle. And the eagle is what we want to be, of course. So the eagle is Yeah, in fact, when I was first, when I was first working on this, I was describing the six animals to my son and I mean, he was about 25 then he's 30 now. And he said, which animal are you dad? And he went, in fact, don't tell me, I bet you're a bloody eagle. And I went, yeah, I am. And I felt a bit bad about that. But then if I wasn't an eagle, I shouldn't be able to invent this theory, should I? I mean, it's my theory. But anyway, the eagle is the person who obviously has got their goals really clear in their mind and they've got the right mixture of home and work and joy and achieve and they're efficient. And that means that they're enjoying and achieving. So they have fun in their life, and they're achieving a certain amount. And I do feel I'm an eagle now. But I've spent a lot of time as a greyhound and a goat. So, you know, I think I'm allowed to be an eagle for a bit now. I actually think though, it's quite hard to know whether you're an eagle. So for example, I know somebody who is a PA, a personal assistant and she is organized. But I think, I don't think she is an eagle because I think she could achieve a lot more. So she's like a small fish in a small pond going, look at me, I'm in charge of my pond. I'm king of my pond. But really, if she only knew there was a massive ocean out there and she's only a minnow, she could then expand. And I think maybe she should have bigger goals and move on up to another level.

But you could say, well, no, she's happy as she is and she's happy being a little eagle and that's great. You know, why interfere? Why tell her, but actually there's a bigger world out there. I don't know, I haven't really got an answer to that. But I think, you know, it's easy to be like a self-perceived eagle and to think that you're achieving, but actually what you're achieving is quite small. And you could, perhaps you have potential to achieve a lot more. So I think one of the challenges with an eagle, and even you and I as quite big eagles, we think.

You know, maybe we should be still thinking, yeah, what am I going to do next year? And I love the way that you, Brian, have every year you refresh those, you aim higher every year because it's never finished, is it? You can't just sit back and go, well, I'm an Eagle now. You know, that's it. I've made it. You know, my advice to the Eagle is so what are you going to do next? And, and that's one of the most difficult things. How do you follow Mount Everest? You know, because when you achieve your goals, you're left thinking, well, I don't know, what am I going to do next?

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Chris, it's the term that I, when I heard it, I'll never forget, I was listening to an audio book, I was coming home from work, and I was walking by a bus stop, and I actually had to sit down when I heard it, because I was a goat for years and years and years. And I was reading this book, and I can't remember where it came from, which kills me right now, but the term was hedonic treadmill.

Chris Croft

Oh yeah, the hedonic treadmill.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Where you're always trying for the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And you don't celebrate where you got to because you're always on to the next. So as soon as you achieve, like, I'm going to run a marathon. And then you run a marathon. And immediately, as soon as the marathon is over, you're contemplating the next marathon or at work. It's the same thing. And so it's a hedonic treadmill in that it never stops. It's never good enough.

Chris Croft

You get your fancy car and within a few weeks, you're used to it, it's just the car and then you want another car, et cetera. Yeah, relentless. So the eagle must resist that, but I do think you wanna keep stretching yourself a little bit and doing things that are gonna develop you, but probably not just financial things like cars. And I think eagles, if they're not careful, they don't spend enough time with their friends because they're too busy achieving, you know. And then also there's the whole question of your exit plan.

Um, is how do you, um, you know, how, where does it stop? How do you retire? What are you going to do when you do retire? Or if you sell off your business that you've created, um, how are you going to, um, how are you going to do nothing or what are you going to do instead? So I think there are questions for Eagles, but, but really that's what we should aspire to, you know, we want to make sure we've got goals, we want to make sure that we're efficient and then if you can be enjoying and achieving both at home and work, then you've pretty much got life sussed. So that's the eagle.

We've got two more animals to look at. And the next animal I wanna talk about is the koala.

So the koala is the person... Do you remember when we started, I was saying you can have goals but be inefficient or you can be efficient but not have goals. So the koala is the person who has goals but is inefficient. Now we haven't had that combination at all yet, have we? We've not talked about people who've got goals but they just don't do anything about them for whatever reason.

And I think there are people in life who are kind of dreamers. Sometimes people in bands are like that as well, actually. So they have this dream of, you know, being on stage with Bruce Springsteen or something like that. But they just never do anything about it. Maybe the goals are too big and scary, and they don't realize that you can just make a small start towards it. Maybe they keep just putting it off. Sometimes they're a bit negative as well. So they...

They have this dream, but they also go, but of course, it'll never happen to me. It's hard. It's not even worth trying to do it really. And well, sometimes they have to let go of something that they've got to take a risk. And the reason I call it a koala, because I was imagining them hugging onto a tree. And they've got quite a good view. And they can see where they'd like to be. Oh, I wish I was over there on that other lovely green tree over there. But they can't let go of the tree they're on.

not like the eagle who can soar above everywhere and go wherever they want. But the koala is thinking, oh, I wish I was over there, but I can't let go of this. So maybe they've got a job that they've settled for and it's okay, it's not quite well paid and you need the money. And they don't wanna take the risk of chucking that in and setting up their own business, let's say. So I think koalas are often nice people and they're...

they often introvert thinkers perhaps and they just need to take the plunge and get an efficient plan of how they're going to do it. Perhaps it's more project management than time management that they need so they need a plan in steps of how they're going to get there but nevertheless they need that they need to execute the plan rather than just have a dream. So the result of the koalas is

And it's such a shame because they've got those dreams and all they have to do is start. But starting can be scary. So that's the koala.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

You know, Chris, and I'm thinking of two different koalas, right? On the one hand, you've got the koala who's like a member of a band who has these goals and then never goes anywhere. That's one sort of koala or that kind of thing where they have goals and then nothing happens. But what I'm also thinking about are the people I jokingly have called it, you've probably heard it as well called Golden Handcuffs, where you have a really good job and you get paid really well and you have a family to support or you have a lifestyle to support. And so in order to take that leap, you could lose the paycheck and you could lose. And so then, and what's funny is those people have probably achieved a lot and they probably have enjoyed some things along the way. So the koala, you know, the way we're talking about a koala almost sounds like a failure. And I think it's important to note that koalas like golden handcuffs doesn't mean you are a failure. It actually means it's a really good thing. So now how do you push yourself? Well, right.

Chris Croft

So they could have been a goat or an eagle in the past, but now they're at a point where the next step is just a dream and they can't, and they're not doing it for some reason.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

And so, and sometimes maybe that's just take, maybe you need to let go of, you know, let's go with the koala metaphor. You're holding onto that tree with your arms and your legs, and maybe you need to hold onto one branch with another limb. Maybe you need to start a little something or put a foot in the, maybe in your off time, you start whatever that other thing is, just so you can experience it. So you don't have to let go of the tree yet, but you're not stuck either. So I'm just thinking about, you know, it's not necessarily just, because you didn't take the leap. Maybe you came so far already that you're afraid of dropping back down.

Chris Croft

Well, the koala metaphor for those golden handcuff ones would be they'd have to come down their existing tree across an upper new tree, and they've got too much to lose. I think that you're absolutely right. I went to a university reunion recently. Now I went to quite a posh, I went to Cambridge University. I don't know how I got in, but anyway I did. And I went back to this reunion, and I was thinking this is gonna be really depressing. All these people are gonna be rich and successful and things.

And I got there, there's a Ferrari in the car park. And I thought, I knew it, you know. And I went into this sort of dinner, everybody had to wear a DJ and all this, you know, dinner jacket, black tie and things. And the guy with the Ferrari, actually, he was a software guy and he was, I remembered him. Cause he still looked exactly the same. And he had like a sort of greasy beard and very sort of scruffy clothes, but he was just a total software genius. And he'd made some software for call centers, and he'd made millions. And that was great, I was pleased for him. But everyone else there, they were all doctors and lawyers and accountants who were sort of like senior partners in consultancies and things. And they were all making quite a lot of money, not millions, but you know, like good pay, but they all had golden handshakes and they were all pretty much all unhappy.

And they all said, well, you know, I've ended up in this quite well-paid job, but it's boring and it's stressful and I don't really like it. And I never have any time at home. I don't even take my holidays. And they'd all become koalas really. But it was really interesting because as you say, they can be well-paid and successful, but they had dreams which were never gonna happen because they didn't have the time and they couldn't also take the risk of leaving their well-paid jobs.

And they all thought I was some crazy sort of bohemian hippie because I was just doing training courses and talks and writing books and having ideas, you know, and I thought I wouldn't swap I wouldn't swap places with them. So yeah, so so the koala is the one with the dreams. I originally called them a frustrated dreamer. And I think it's quite sad to go through life as a frustrated dream. It's almost better not to have a dream. Because at least then you're not beating yourself up because you're not achieving it. And that takes me to my final animal, which is the tortoise.

And the tortoise is the person who doesn't have goals and is also not efficient. And therefore they don't achieve anything and they don't enjoy themselves. And these are the people who, originally I was calling them the dissatisfied plodder. And there are people who plod through life and they're just unhappy and they just go, well, what can you do? Because that's what life's like.

You know, I'll just have to carry on doing this job that I hate. And, you know, but what can you do? And quite possibly they have all sorts of potential. If, if only somebody told them and said, look, you, you can do more than this. I'll show you how, you know, and a life coach could probably blow their mind. But the thing about the tortoise is they don't look up. They can't even see the eagle. They don't look up and realize, oh my God, there's a mountain there. So they're just plodding along through the grass thinking, well,

just have to eat grass again today, you know. And I think it's really sad because there's a whole lot of potential they probably could have. So I think I would start probably with goals, but of course the tortoise is gonna say, well, what's the point? I can never achieve those. So you'd have to start in small steps, you know, with a little bit of goals, a little bit of achievement. And then once they achieve that bit, they can then think, whoa, what's my next goal gonna be? And what do I have to do to get that?

and they'll get more efficient and have more goals and get more efficient, have more goals and they could work their way up. So if you're living your life as a tortoise at the moment, you don't have to, you know, get some goals and be a koala or get a bit more organized and be a greyhound. And once you've got both your goals, you know, then you can do it. And all you have to do is make sure that you don't forget to have fun and become a goat. You know, so you can go up that ladder to be the eagle. You know, you can do it. You absolutely can.

I think the one dead end I wouldn't go down if I was a tortoise is just to take up hedonism, to take up drink or drugs or excessive food or whatever it might be. But, you know, and just to have short-term fun. I mean, you could argue that's better than tortoise, but the trouble is that's a dead end which won't get you anywhere because you don't have goals. So that's the final, the sixth combination is the tortoise. Now, you might be looking at these and thinking, well, hang on a minute, if there's two inputs and two outputs, that gives me 16 possible animals, not just six. But the other 10 animals are impossible. So, you know, you can't achieve without goals. And you can't achieve without efficiency. So although those combinations are just gone, you can enjoy yourself without goals and efficiency because you can be the hedonist, you know, the koala, sorry, the kangaroo. But if you think about all the, and I've put a blog post on my website, chriscroft.com, which explains why you can't have the other 10 animals. There are only six combinations that are possible. So we're all doing one of those six combinations. And like we said, even if you can make it to eagle,

After a while, you may then think, but I've got a bigger goal than that now. And you go back to being a koala, perhaps. And you can absolutely swap between the animals. But the good news about all of this is that it's not that difficult to get some goals sorted. Just takes a bit of imagination, bit of perhaps courage to say, I'm gonna do this. And then it's not that difficult to get organized. I mean, you know, get my time management course from you to me for $10 or whatever or a book on time management, but it's only making some lists, you know, and having a calendar where you make a note, write everything down. Make sure you don't forget anything. Try to overcome procrastination by some sort of technique that works for you, maybe blocking time in your diary or promising things to other people so you have to do them or maybe starting the day with the toughest job first. You know, swallowing the frog, it's sometimes called to bring another animal into this.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Oh, eat the frog first. Oh, I just talked about this on another episode, which was such a funny moment. Oh yes, absolutely. There's, yeah, learning these tools.

Chris Croft

Yeah. So, you know, time management is a well-known, well-trodden path, isn't it? But it's so important because your life is only time and every day slips by. And when you get, I'm older than you, I'm pretty sure, Brian, but when you get to older than about 55, then at that point, you've only got 800 weekends left. 800 weekends, that's all. 800 weeks and you can do the maths on what age you are and how long you've got. And you might have 2000, but remember that, you know, you don't know, because anything could happen even next week, you know, especially driving is quite dangerous, et cetera. You just don't know. So it's really important to make the most of every day. And time management is really only about how you live your life. But then you've got to add goals on, because which direction are you going to go with that? So I think those are the two inputs really.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

It makes perfect sense in that it's, and we talked about the journey too, where it's like, you know, if you love the goals you achieve and you're enjoying the journey along the way, then that is what you're talking about with the eagle. And what's funny is a lot of the things when you're struggling to achieve some of these things, one of the things people often forget is to keep growing and to keep learning.

Right? You're consistently learning. And so all of the things that you need to go do these bigger goals, to be the Eagle, to try that new thing, to go, to stretch yourself. All of the knowledge that you need is available in online courses and YouTube videos. And it's amazing how whatever it is that you kind of looking to do, the knowledge is out there if you're willing to go get it. And so.

Chris Croft

I've just made a video on YouTube, by the way. I've just remembered. Um, I only put it out last week and it's called time management in under eight minutes and it's already, well, that's good use of time. It's already had 40,000 views in a week. Can you believe? Yeah. It's been really popular. So if you're listening to this, at least just have a look at time management in under eight minutes and

Brian Nelson-Palmer

That's a very appropriate title for a time management.

Very, very clever, Chris. Absolutely. People want time management in a short amount of time. Yes.

Chris Croft

And that's going to be a good start, isn't it, to get you out from, you know, from being a tortoise. By the way, the tortoise is the, is the rarest of, of my animals. And I think, you know, I think a lot of people probably don't admit to being tortoises when they are, because tortoises don't realize that they're tortoises. But, yeah, only 6% of people ended up on my surveys of tortoise. The other one that was rare was the kangaroo actually. Not many people think they're kangaroos. The second commonest after the Greyhound was the goat. And I do think I think there's a lot of goats out there doing careers. So 20, about 25% of people came out as a goat on my survey. And then you add the, the eagle, I thought everyone might go, Oh, I'm an eagle, but only 13% reckoned they were eagles. So I think I've got the questionnaire quite good so that it really does make you be honest. And so only 13% were eagles and 10% were koalas.

So the questionnaire seems to be working pretty well, but you've got to be honest with yourself, haven't you? I mean, don't try to fool the questionnaire because if you are a tortoise, let's say, the first step is to acknowledge it and think, right, I need to get some goals for my life and I need to get some efficiency going, get a bit of speed going, but anyone can do it. That's the great message. So there we are, Brian, that's the animals. I don't know how much time we've taken.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yep. Absolutely.

Oh my gosh, all the animals. We took quite some time. And at the same time, it is really helpful when I was just talking with another speaker about this the other day, it's helpful to have a model when you talk about these things, because the relation between these things is great. So Chris, I love the model you have with the animals here, because it's, which ones do you relate to? And you're not gonna be always only one for the rest of your life, always.

I definitely, I've gone through phases, if you got an animal in the quiz and you don't like that, then certainly many people will think, oh, I'll just have to take the quiz again and change my answers. And I don't know that that's necessarily what you were intending. I think it's probably like, well, let's self-reflect. And what are the things that I could do to change it so that the next time I take the quiz, it really is different answers. I didn't just check the box to get the better thing. So that's really helpful.

And I want to share, I wanted to ask you one follow up question on this, Chris, which was what about now, where does this mean for you personally? So you, you came up with these animals, you were talking about it. Is there, is there a personal story or a personal meaning behind where this whole animal thing came from?

Chris Croft

Well, the animal thing is really just me trying to understand life and particularly mine because you have to start with yourself, don't you? And looking at my friends and thinking, do I want to be like them? Because I have got some very successful rich friends who are goats, who have no fun. And then the people in the band who I think I would call friends, but they're also friends from a very different world to me. You know, they regard me as a sort of corporate

And so looking at them and some of them are koalas with big dreams and some of them are tortoises who just plod through life, but mostly they're kangaroos, at least having fun. And so I've been thinking, do I wanna be like them? And what do I wanna be like? And what is life all about? And I'm pretty sure it's enjoy and achieve. And then I sort of was thinking, well, the inputs have got to be goals and efficiency really. So I've...

I thought about writing a book about this. What I've actually done is done six little mini eBooks. So whatever animal you are, you can get the eBook for sort of like $3 or something. So I've made those. The book I'm doing at the moment is actually doesn't talk about animals, but it's called Seven Paths to Happiness. And it's really about the stuff that's behind this. So it's about, is it good idea to be self-employed or trying to go up the management tree

Is it a good idea to just have a job where you do the minimum so you can have plenty of time with your family and plenty of energy with your family? Or what? So, you know, and is it best to have a little niche that you're a real expert in? Or is it best to do what I call multi-harvesting, where you do a bit of quite a few things? So you have a bit more security and a bit more variety. So, I've been writing this book, which is very nearly finished. It'll be out in about a month on

the different paths you could choose through your life and which ones will make you happy. So that's the, I just enjoy thinking about this stuff really. I mean, that's why I'm doing it. And I think not enough other people are thinking about this. You know, there's a lot of people who think about time management and there's some great books on time management. You know, Getting Things Done, for example, by David Allen is fascinating, but that's really only about systems. There's a book by Hiram Smith called the 10 laws of successful time and life management or something like that? Hiram Smith, that's a really good book, I think, because he does talk about goals and efficiency in there. But I don't think there are many people who go up from time management up to the big question of life itself and happiness particularly. So there are lots of books on success, but which I'm calling achieve, but there aren't many books on happiness and success. There are some books on happiness now, happiness is starting to come up as a subject, isn't it? But I think it's gotta be happiness and success, happiness and achievement. And I haven't really seen much that brings it all together into a big picture of life. And so I just think it needs to be thought about. I think it's the most important thing, isn't it? You know, why write a book on say marketing or something, which is great and you have to do it when out there, there's this big thing called the meaning of life. You know, that's what we should be thinking about. So that's what I'm trying to nibble away at, like a little tiny mouse trying to nibble at this cheese mountain.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

So I almost I you want to figure out it's like a book on how to maintain your eagle or the topic is how to maintain your eagle because it's you eventually you the motivation or things life changes things change and even though you might have been soaring for a while. Now you hit this point where maybe there's golden handcuffs and you went from soaring to now you're in that sort of there's a little bit of a koala creeping into your eagle life or like that kind of thing. It's that thing, it's about the journey and how do you maintain this indefinitely going forward? And I think you're really hitting on some really good points with goals and efficiency. I love the, well, so you and I, clearly we could talk about this for hours and we won't put you through this listening to us. Chris and I just nerd out on this topic because my God, we definitely could. But Chris, I want to bring it to a close. And what I want to do is I want to say, here's what I love. I love that you've pondered your mouse self, you've taken your mouse self and you've pondered this into a model that helps people reflect. Because oftentimes many people need to hear this 40 to 50 times in different ways before it might have the effect. Timing is a thing. Maybe you've, all the stuff that Chris and I talked about today are things that you've probably heard in different formats, in different ways, sometime in your life up to now. But if you're in the right frame of mind to hear it and you recognize it because you had heard it before, but now it hits home a little differently. Chris, I love that you've created this model to kind of the six animals are ways to reflect on yourself and where are you going? Where are you now? And it's almost like it's a self-assessment way and I absolutely love it. So thank you for sharing it with me today and with us today, because it's really interesting to reflect on yourself and how do you, where do you wanna be, where are you now, and what would it take to get there? It's just fascinating.

Chris Croft

Absolutely. It's so important, isn't it? It's such a big, important subject, this. I mean, there might be another animal I haven't thought of, but the fact that it's based on these two inputs and two outputs means that there can't be any more combinations. So, I think, yeah, absolutely. If it helps one person, it's worth doing. I want to say thank you for having me because this is the first time I've talked about this properly on a podcast or anywhere really. I've made one short video on YouTube, but it's much better to be chatting to somebody about it and it feels really good to have got it all out there now. So I hope loads of people see this and I hope it helps them and we get a few more Eagles out there and move people up from tortoises at least, you know, so yeah, I really hope it makes a difference. Thank you for asking me to do this.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. And Chris, what's now if people want to keep in touch with you, what are the best places for them to go?

Chris Croft

Well, I would say definitely LinkedIn. If you're on LinkedIn, it's free. I mean, why would you not be on LinkedIn? Um, so follow me on LinkedIn. You can't connect, unfortunately. I've run out of connections. Um, you only get, you only get 30,000 and they don't tell you until you get to 29 and a half thousand. So you can't, it's really hard to sort of, you can't delete people very easily. So, but you can follow, follow me on LinkedIn. Cause I post things almost every day about happiness, time management, meaning of life type stuff. So follow me on LinkedIn.

Um, YouTube is another good place because I put things on YouTube, probably every week I put a new video on YouTube. So I've got about 400 videos on there and obviously it's all free. So why would you not? So LinkedIn and YouTube,

I've got a website, chriscroft.com, which has got, I put things on my blog that I'm a bit nervous about putting out in public on LinkedIn, but my blog is mine. So if you want to see what I really think then have a look at my blog, chriscroft.com. And that's a little bit more eccentric, a little bit more strange, but I hope interesting. And then the final place would be if you want to buy a training course, you can get stuff from udemy.com, U-D-E-M-Y.com. Just put Chris Croft in there and you'll find me. And I've got about 30 courses on Udemy. And they only cost like $15 or something. And there are all kinds of things, time management, project management, happiness, assertiveness, difficult people, loads of stuff on there.

I've got one called Planning Your Career and Your Life, which it covers this kind of thing. And it actually talks about the animals a bit as well. So I'm quite proud of the courses I've made on Udemy. But if you want free stuff, LinkedIn and YouTube will be the place to start, I would say.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

There you go. And I'll include all those links to the things he's talking about. I'll put those, I'll drop those in the episode notes and in the, in the, in the, in the comments on this. So you can do that. So, um, now, and two things now for you tuning in, there's two requests I have. The first one is, do you have a friend or colleague who has been struggling with productivity or these questions about the meaning of life or this kind of thing? If you have one of those, I know Chris and I both would love for you to share this episode specifically with them, because there's a million podcasts out there. And while I certainly I hope thank you for liking and subscribing to this podcast and being a part of Predictivity Gladiator with me, but with Chris, it's definitely helpful for this specific episode to get shared with somebody. If we can help, like Chris said, if we can help one person or two people with this, this this is wonderful.

So thank you very much for tuning in that way. And certainly thanks for subscribing and liking. And I do have an email list that you can subscribe that gives you a little something extra compared to just what's here on the show. So I love sharing this productivity gladiator thing with you. And that's a wrap.

Everyday Persuasion: The Sales Tactics That Work With Kids, Bosses, AND Clients - with Dean Karrel

Dean Karrel, a sales trainer and career advisor, joins Brian to discuss everyday sales tactics that can be used to influence and persuade, not just in a sales role but in all aspects of life - with kids, family, bosses, and clients. They discuss emotional intelligence, listening, understanding the other person's perspective, telling stories, being prepared, focusing on benefits over features, building trust through integrity, and character, as key skills for effective "selling" and positive influence in all your relationships. Selling is a valuable skill in all your roles throughout your life. Everyday persuasion is right!

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The Audio/Podcast

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Links to References In This Episode

• Dean Karrel's book "Mastering the Basics: Keys to Career & Life Success"

• Dean Karrel’s courses on LinkedIn Learning

• Brian Nelson-Palmer's TEDx talk on the value of your time

• Movie Glengarry Glen Ross - the Alec Baldwin "Always Be Closing" speech scene

• Movie - The Wolf of Wall Street - The Sales Speech Scene

• Movie - Tin Men - scene on deception & Aluminum Siding

• Dr. Todd Dewett's episode on storytelling

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Episode Digest

What Do You Mean Everyday PERSUASION

We all have an aversion to “sales” and “selling.” Visions of high pressure, scammy salespeople immediately come to mind thanks to negative stereotypes perpetuated by popular media. However, the reality is sales skills are invaluable in all aspects of business and life – with your colleagues, your family, even your kids. Sales, influence, and persuasion happen everyday in a variety of relationships and scenarios.

So how can you utilize sales tactics effectively without manipulation? The key is authenticity. Success lies in enhancing your natural abilities rather than pretending to be someone you’re not.

““At the end of the day, you can’t fake it.” ”

— Dean Karrel

Emotional Intelligence Sets the Stage

The first and most critical sales skill is emotional intelligence – self-awareness and understanding others. You can’t sell anything without first reading the emotional state of the other party. Listen more than you speak to pick up on cues revealing how the other person is feeling and what objections or concerns they may have. Empathize and find common ground. No progress will happen if emotions run high or trust lacks. As one quote puts it, “take it easy, they’re doing the best they can.” Meet people where they are first before launching into a proposal or request.

What’s in It For Them?

We all ask ourselves “What’s in this for me?” when presented with an offer. The key is to flip perspectives. Demonstrate how your product, idea, or proposal specifically solves a problem or adds value for the other party. Generic benefits don’t compel action. You have to understand motivations and goals from their angle. Do your research to craft messaging hitting on tangible outcomes the other person cares about.

An example shared was utilizing AI to help clean out and use up food when moving houses. The benefit of convenience connecting with a pressing real need in the moment led to adoption of the technology. Even though general usefulness had been touted before without impact. Think benefits over features and make it personal.

Stories Resonate More Than Stats

Stories speak directly to emotions and relationships. Data and facts have their place in selling, but stories forge human connections vital for influence. One powerful anecdote relayed was of a salesperson standing on a couch to physically demonstrate the “no sag” benefit of that particular furniture product. Visuals showing 350 pounds of force exerted without damage tell the durability story far better than talking springs and fabric quality.

Stories also help deliver difficult news or major changes that require buy-in from your team. Explaining the reasons behind a shift through story gives helpful context. Even during painful layoffs, the “why” behind restructuring won empathy and preserved future relationships with those impacted.

Authenticity Starts with Self-Awareness

A sales pro knows both strengths and growth areas – they have clarity on natural abilities that can be enhanced versus trying to force behaviors not aligned with innate tendencies. As one leader learned, aggression and manipulation don’t work long-term even if you initially close more deals. You burn trust quickly through not being genuine.

Leaning into authenticity requires self-awareness. What unique value do you bring based on abilities, experience, and personality? Lead with your true self to build trust and likability that enables influence.

The Foundation: Character

At the root, your character determines the trust you instill. One story involved calling out a rude customer and then encountering them later as a job candidate. Treating people respectfully regardless of power status or external pressures reveals strong principles. Do you help others when there is no advantage or audience? How you act when no one is looking shows who you truly are.

“You burn trust quickly through not being genuine.”

— Dean Karrel

Relationships Drive Referrals

Finally, sales has shifted from one-off transactions to relationship focus because referrals now drive revenue. While AI supports many business functions, people ultimately still decide to do business with people. No software builds rapport and trust for you. Use technology to enhance but not try to replace human connections.

Listening and learning about the other person before launching into a sales pitch proves more persuasive than glossy brochures or elegant features. Sales at its core sits on this foundation: genuinely knowing, helping, and collaborating with humans.

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Today’s Guest

Dean Karrel
Sales Trainer, Career Mentor, Author

Dean Karrel is an expert in executive coaching, career mentoring, sales training, and leadership development.

Dean has been in sales management and leadership positions for over three decades with some major global publishing companies. Most recently, he was senior vice president of sales of John Wiley & Sons based in Hoboken, New Jersey. His sales teams were focused on direct sales to major retailers such as Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Costco, and other national chains, along with initiatives aimed at B2B and B2C sales. Dean now has his own consulting business providing sales training programs along with career and executive coaching. In addition, he is a Certified Professional Career Coach. Dean is the author of Mastering the Basics: Simple Lessons for Achieving Success in Business.

Website: linkedin.com/learning/instructors/dean-karrel

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/deankarrel

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian does special zoom events and shares hacks and tips exclusively for his email subscribers. Topics like “13 alternatives to checking social media on your phone” or “2 email rules which will cut your email inbox in half” and more. Sign up to start receiving the tips from these exclusive events!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. These Gladiators wield email management superpowers, a laser-guided ability to focus, samurai-grade prioritization skills, a sniper-precise task tracking approach, Jedi time management skills, and a secret sauce for maximizing their personal life balance. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. And on this show, I talk about personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, I want to dive into everyday persuasion. These are the sales tactics that work with kids, bosses, and clients, because sales is an everyday thing. It's a part of everybody's life. It's not just for the salespeople, right? So with me on the show today is Dean Karrel. Dean's a career development advisor and a sales trainer. Dean, thanks so much for joining me today.

Dean Karrel

Brian, it's great to be here. Thanks so much for inviting me, and I'm looking forward to our discussion today.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Wow, me too. I've been, he's got books on this topic. Dean's really well versed in this. And as I was thinking about, you know, like as a project manager or as an early career, up and coming aspiring leader, the sales tactics are something you're gonna use for your entire career, whether you're in sales or not. And so it was like, man, I get to talk with Dean about this. I've been excited. So thank you for being here on this. And now for those who don't know, I gave them a little primer, but talk about you in relation to, so we're gonna talk about everyday sales.

Tell them about you and your relation to sales.

Dean Karrel

Well, I've spent my whole career in sales. I started in the publishing industry as a textbook sales representative, and we actually bought print books. And I worked with a company named Prentice Hall, which was the number one textbook publisher way back in its day. And then I went to Simon & Schuster for a number of years, which is the big consumer publisher. And then I spent more than 20 years at a company named Wiley, which is a business book and consumer publisher, academic publisher and professional journals publisher, and for the last 10 years, I've done sales training, I do coaching, and I have sales courses with the training division of LinkedIn called LinkedIn Learning. So I love the profession and I always try to explain it in a way that makes it easy for people to understand.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

And sales really is an everyday thing. You know, you watch movies or there's, you get the easy version that sometimes comes out in public about, you know, it's like the sales stuff is about the slimy tactics they use at used car sales. And actually sales is nothing like that at all. So I'm so glad we get to talk about this. So let's dive in. So everyday sales tactics that work for your kids, your boss and your client, what's...

What comes to mind, I gave you this topic and I didn't really prime Dean ahead. There wasn't like a bunch of homework where we worked all these out ahead of time. It was like, all right, Dean, what comes to mind for you with this?

Dean Karrel

Well, I think you just touched on it in that introduction about sales tactics. When you say sales to people, immediately people have a reaction and many times, unfortunately, it is not positive. You know, the stereotypes for sales often come from movies and we joked about this in a note between ourselves beforehand about, you know, Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, of Alec Baldwin going, always be closing. And we were like, oh man.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Always be close. I'm going to share. I'll make sure I share a link to that scene from Glenn Gary. If you don't know what we're talking about, I'll share a link in the notes because oh man, it's like one of those moments where it just makes I used to be and I oh gosh, Dean, I'm sorry to interrupt. I should share that. I used to be the general manager of actually a furniture retail chain down in South Florida. And I used to teach sales training and hire and fire sales associates. And so I have a relationship with sales too very much. And when I watch that movie, it just oh, God, it hurts me sometimes that like, oh, that's not it at all. I'm glad you mentioned that.

Dean Karrel

No, it's not what you're absolutely right. But when people watch that and they think, well, that's what sales is all about. And then, you know, a great entertaining movie was the Wolf of Wall Street. You know, great. There was a lot of fun. But, you know, that's all those guys and women. They got in trouble. You know, Jordan Belfort went to jail. Now, he's since reformed himself. But that manipulative approach is not what sales is about. You go way back. There was a movie.

I'm really dating myself, it was called the Tin Men. And they would sell aluminum siding. And that's the impression that a lot of people have, the negative stereotype of what sales is all about. So I have fought that my entire career of trying to make, talk about sales tactics is the main thing is just be yourself. Not being manipulative, not being in your face.

But its sales tactics is something that it does involve every profession. Whether you're a project manager, a marketing manager, whether you're in selling at retail, our job is to try and influence people to make decisions. So the basics of sales tactics and the number one skill that I talk about is emotional intelligence. Again, no matter what your profession may be, it's being aware.

understanding and showing empathy. And I think that's one of the tactics that we all need to learn more of is emotional intelligence.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

for sure. There's emotional intelligence is definitely one of those when the customer comes in the store or forget store, right? We're talking about sales in everyday life. So when your son or daughter comes in and they're having some sort of rough day, or you're trying to convince your boss that you need funding for the upcoming project or something, if they're in a bad head space or they're not in a good mood, the odds of you getting that sale or them to say yes or something

You might want to take a little detour and change the emotions going on right now before you jump right into that topic. Because otherwise they're already primed to say no. So like, ah, emotional intelligence is it.

Dean Karrel

Emotional intelligence, which touches on just what you were going through there, is you have to be able to listen. Too often salespeople, and again, no matter what profession we're in, we're so excited to present our project or present our product or service that we don't actually listen to what the other person's saying. We're immediately coming up with our response. You hit on another topic that I've talked to my kids about throughout my entire life, and also the people I've hired and trained is...

Not every day is going to be a bowl of cherries, no matter what job you have. And in sales, in sales, that's so true. And that's what scares people about selling, is we don't want to hear no. And we're, rejection, who wants to hear that? But that's true in any job. We do hear no from our managers, or a proposal we've made doesn't, isn't accepted. And, you know, people often say to me, Dean, you know, you're always so upbeat, you're always so optimistic, you ever have a bad day. And I said, absolutely true.

And the lesson that I've taught my children is that, you know, when I first got into sales, uh, I lived in upstate New York, uh, Rochester, New York, middle of nowhere, snowing like crazy all the time. And, you know, here I am a new job. Well, I had a couple of bad days and I wrote down this note. Now this is, I'm dating myself. This goes back 40 years. So I said, remember

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Okay, hold that up to the camera. Okay, yup, there it is. Ooh, cool. Okay, what's it say?

Dean Karrel

You see this note?

And it says, "wasn't too good, come on Dean, make it!" Now this is a 40 year old note that I've kept in my pocket because there are gonna be days, no matter what job you have, that it's not gonna be good. So people then say to me, well, Dean, why do you still have this? Because life is a roller coaster. And thankfully, I don't have to refer to this all the time, but in my 30s, I did. You have those questions like, what is my path? Where am I going? You've shifted careers, career paths in your life.

We all go through that. I looked at it in my 30s. I had a great job. My last job at Wiley, I was the senior vice president of sales, I left that. And when I went to do something else, I actually referred to this notice and why did I leave that job? So the lesson is, and what I've taught and exchanged with my children is, not every day is gonna be perfect.

And life does has the ties and lows. And certainly you feel that in sales and you feel that in every profession.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

And I really love what we're talking about here is also listening and paying attention to what other people are going through at the same time. You mentioned listening is important and my favorite metaphor I used to share was, you have two ears and one mouth and you should use them proportionally. So like twice as much listening as talking, because if you listen, they will give you the cues. They often give you the answers. So your kids, your bosses, whatever it is, they're gonna hesitate for some reason and that reason that they share, if you're listening, is probably part of whatever it is you need to overcome in order to convince the kids that, yes, we should go on vacation to this particular location instead of the one they want, or to stop, why are you actually having a temper tantrum? Or it's one of those things that like, man, if you listen and you pay attention to the emotional intelligence, like we talk about, the cues, they come at you if you're listening and if you're paying attention. I love it.

Dean Karrel

You have to work at it. And it is the natural inclination is when you're making a presentation on a new project or you're making a presentation in sales or you're making a marketing proposal is, you're so excited to present it that you keep talking. And you have to make sure you sit back. It's a really, it is a learning curve. It's almost like putting your hands underneath your thighs and saying, be quiet and say nothing. And just look and look at somebody in the eye. That's so true. But it's a but it you know, we're all we've got rent to pay. We've got mortgages to pay. We've got to feed our families. We have to eat. So we're so anxious to have the proposal accepted or make that sale or close that business that we're not looking for those queues that you just mentioned. We're so anxious to continue speaking and sell our product or service.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Big time. As I was reflecting on this topic too, before the episode, one of the thoughts that came to mind that's also a helpful tip, no matter where you are, the tip is, what's in it for me? Remember that phrase because for kids, for bosses, for clients, for everybody, it's not about you, it's about them. And so if you're selling something or you have a proposal that you want to be accepted or you whatever...

that you wanna go to a certain place or a certain restaurant or a certain, if you have a way that you would like for things to go, they don't care what you want, they care what they want. And that's not to be crass, that's not mean, that's just, it is what it is with their interested in what's in it for them. So as long as when you talk about things, you don't always start out with an end with.

Well, because I want to do it and this is what I think because of I'll make this money or I'll get this thing or I'll get, it's about, well, what is it? What's in it for them? And so that was one of, oh, like, oh my gosh, it's the WIFM, W-I-I-F-M, what's in it for me? Remember that one, yeah.

Dean Karrel

for me. Well, again, that's a learning curve also, because we are, again, so anxious thinking about ourselves. But you have to put yourself in the buyer's situation or the person you're presenting to, their situation. I used to complain a lot. I go to see certain customers. I say, ah, they're so tough. This buyer with such a pain in the neck. He's not listening. He's always going no, or she's always going no. And you realize they're under the same pressure as we are. And on the other side of the desk,

video call in that they've got obligations to make in their business, they've got budgets to hit, they've got limited resources. So you have to put yourself on the other person's shoes and seeing what they're going through. It is a two-way street. In this day and age, the sales role is really trying to become a trusted advisor with the customers that we're dealing with, rather than me versus them. It's how do we solve a problem together? So it's a...

That's an evolution of when sales is different than when I first got into it. And buyers are much more knowledgeable. People know much, much more what they want to buy and what, and if you're making a project presentation, the person on the other side has those same obligations and considerations to go through. So it's being aware, going back to emotional intelligence of what that other person is going through.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

You know, I'm reminded of the metaphor when you, the metaphor is when you're selling, imagine yourself sitting on the same side of the table as them, because when you create the standoff situation, that's the scenario like when you're in the car dealership and the guy's sitting across the table and you want this and he wants this and you're back and forth and that thing. If you imagine yourself as what do we want and you're sitting on the same side of the table as the customer or the kids or the boss or the whoever it is and like what...

What's in it for us? What do we want? You're on the same team. It totally changes the dynamic. So imagine yourself sitting on the same side of the table as the person that you are selling to or trying to convince, whatever it is in life.

Dean Karrel

It's a, that is a real learning curve because it's a very stressful thing when I used to go to big, some big box retailers from Walmart to Barnes and Noble to Amazon, and you'd sit in a room and you have a buyer across from you and your book. He has, he or she has, you know, the, the objectives that they're trying to get. I have the objectives that I'm trying to get. I'm trying to get my products are serviced in those accounts and they're trying to find ways to get a better deal or make sure it's the right offering. And

You know, it's a very interesting environment when you go back to the days when you would sit across a desk in a buyer's office and it is one on one. And as you said, they've got obligations and considerations to meet too. And it's a learning curve is how do you make it a win-win for both people? You're not going to get everything that you want and they can't get everything that they want. How do you make both sides successful?

It goes back to that phrase of being a trusted advisor. If you're a salesperson that's just trying to make one deal and run, or if you're trying to make a project presentation and say, OK, I got it, move on to the next one, that's not a recipe for long-term success. Excuse me. What you're trying to build is a long-term relationship. That comes with trust, honesty, being authentic, and being genuine.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

for sure, absolutely. One of the other thoughts that I wanted to, as I was thinking about this, I wanted to share is, remember that in any situation, kids, bosses, selling, all of these, it's the benefits, not the features. And what I mean by that, I have this story that I have that comes to mind is I will never forget when I was in the furniture store and we were doing sales training, there was a guy that weighed

We called him Big Ben. Big Ben was 350 pounds and he was six foot eight. And you just wondered how on earth is this guy selling furniture? Like this guy's huge. There's you think somebody that big would have some sort of career that involves being that big or something. But no, he was he was a wonderful sales guy. And so we used to teach with the sales training that it's the feature, not the benefit. So the feature that he used to demonstrate, he would say the feature is that this thing, it has a no sag spring system for the couch. So for you, that's like, if you sit down on the couch, your couch is never gonna bottom out or sag if you buy this couch. And then he would take the cushion off of the couch and Big Ben would stand on the springs and bounce up and down like a kid for these. And so you got Big Ben 350 pounds bouncing on this spring system. Like that was the benefit. So that visual of the benefit, like the no sag seating system was the feature, but the benefit was that it's never going to sag. Look at Big Ben bouncing on this thing. And so I share that because when you think about the things that you're selling, whether it's your kids or your boss or whatever it is, it think about what the benefit is for them. It's not just the feature. It's not just the bullet on the thing that, oh, it has this feature. You got a certain car. You want to convince your family that, hey, we should get this one because

It has Bluetooth. They don't care about Bluetooth, but what they do care about is the fact that the kids can be in the backseat with their iPhone controlling the music to the front seat without, so it's stuff like that where it's the benefits, not the features that make all the difference.

Dean Karrel

It's also with Big Ben, he's being authentic. That's who he is. And he's saying, look, this is who I am. I'm a big guy and this is what works with the furniture that I'm selling. It is effective. It goes to, I used to have managers and bosses at one company I worked with, their sales training techniques was being aggressive, being manipulative, being in your face and being in a da da, close, close. And I realized, I tried to be like that for a period of time. You know,

You stay in a, I'm a, I'm a, blah, blah. And you realize, that's not me. And I talk about in sales training is, at the end of the day, you have to just be yourself. You know, I'm not an A student, I was a B student. How do I become successful? Well, it is enhancing the skills that I was given when I was, you know, when I was raised. I try to be nice to people, I try to be outgoing, I try to be authentic, I try to be genuine. So those are lessons that I teach is in learning from that, the contrast of trying to be somebody I was not. So Big Ben may have been six foot eight, three hundred pounds, but he was being real. He was saying, hey look, I have a good product that I'm selling you, offering you. And that's a great example of somebody just being themselves. He wasn't trying to fake it. I am what I am.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Oh, true, man. Big Ben, I think so fondly of that guy. It's been years. I haven't seen Big Ben in years, but I will never forget him bouncing up and down. And he bounced up and down on that sofa like 10 times a day. I mean, that same sofa, that same seat on the same sofa. Like he did that over and over and over again. And I so I to this day, I would still buy that couch because after watching Big Ben do that every day for years of that floor model, it's still good. Anyway, I side.

Dean Karrel

Well, that's a profession. When you talk about a profession that's misunderstood is selling furniture, because there are some chains where it is a very aggressive sales approach. And the best salespeople. It's funny. I just went to a retailer meeting yesterday, and the woman is an unbelievable salesperson because she doesn't sell. And she kept asking me what we were doing in our home for my wife and I, how we were designing everything.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

I like that.

Dean Karrel

And I've gone back to her three or four times because she is just kept asking me, what are we adding in our house? What are we trying to do? She actually unsold things that I was thinking I wanted to buy. She said, you don't need that. Wait, get it in your home first and then see what makes sense. But there are some chains, as you know, in the furniture industry, which is often misunderstood where it is a very aggressive sales tactic where.

you walk in the front door and the next salesperson has to come up, right? Who gets in, who, you know, and it's a, um, so it's a tough business. So that's why somebody like a big Ben can be so effective and successful.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. Well, Dean, I wanna pivot and look at, I wanna look at it through certain lenses now is what I'd like to do. So what I wanna ask you is let's, so I'm gonna give you some scenarios and let's talk about what are the skills that come to mind, the sort of, generally we might have taught them as sales skills over the years, but what are the skills that are gonna be applicable in that situation? So first, let's talk about for kids, spouses, family.

Are there any stories or what are the skills and what are the stories that come to mind for you in convincing your family or your kids or your spouse selling ideas or things to do things?

Dean Karrel

Well, I always talk about being ready and prepared. And if you're going to, you can't just show up and say, you know, I want to be able to get a new car, dad, or I want to get a new baseball bat. You know, it's being able to say, dad, I have worked hard in school, and I want to see if I can come up with a plan where you're going to help me buy a new baseball bat or get an investment in a car or something along the way. It's planning and preparation and doing your research. It's like you and I speaking today, I just didn't show up and say, oh, hey, Brian, how you doing? It's looking at some of your other episodes. I've watched them before, seeing other people that's been there. So with my children, I would say it's being ready, doing your research, even starting at an early age, just don't show up, being understanding and knowing what's going on and what you're gonna expect with other relatives. You might be meeting at Thanksgiving or other holidays. And it's trying to bring things back to...

the basics of communication, basic skills, being friendly, being outgoing. And I think that's what it would make for a successful child and a successful business person.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. As I was thinking about this scenario, I was reminded of the topic or the technique is about making, it's the what's, going back to the what's in it for them scenario. And the funny one about this is with my wife. So I teach, Productivity Gladiator is about personal practical productivity skills. And AI has been big in this. If you've been paying attention to chat GPT and these different things. So I have been using AI tools.

Like it's my, I jokingly call it my brilliant intern because it's man, I bounce ideas off of it all day long. I use it all the time. It's such a helpful tool. And if you don't use it, you might not necessarily see why you should use it. It doesn't make sense. So I use it all the time and my wife does not use it at all. She has no interest in it. She doesn't see it. And there's so many things that we'll talk about during the day that she would say something. I'll be like,

I would ask AI this, but when I tell her, you should ask AI this, she doesn't, that didn't mean anything, right? So that feature benefit, whatever. So in this case, this funny story that I have is, with AI, the reason I got her to try AI for the first time was we were getting ready to move. We just moved to Florida. We're getting ready to move and we're doing that thing where you got too much in the cupboards.

in the cabinets in the pantry and you're trying to use the last of everything. And I said, you know, you could go, and if you haven't tried this, by the way, you should totally do this right now. You can go on one of these chat GPT or Bard or any of them, there's so many. You go in there and you ask, I have the following ingredients or I have the following things in my pantry, what can I make? And it will send you recipes that you could use. So for the whole two weeks before we left and moved, my wife was all about going on AI to find out what the recipe was that she could use to clean out the cupboard or whatever. And we were both doing it. I mean, I help out in the kitchen occasionally too. And so like we're both using it. But that was the reason she finally tried it was because it was a very specific use case for why it mattered to her. It wasn't just the general benefit of, oh, it's so helpful, but now it's helpful for you because of this and this

That's the thought is, man, making sure that the benefit is personal to them and put it in terms of them. It's not just in general. If you can make it relevant to them specifically, man, what a difference.

Dean Karrel

It's also that lesson of embracing new technology. And it's, you know, you go, when I look back, when I first got into sales, I mean, we didn't have mobile phones, I didn't have computers. I actually did call reports on a typewriter. And I thought whiteout, you know, when you make a mistake on a printer, you can use white. I thought that was a great technology advance. And when I got on the airplane, I was one of the first people who had a Blackberry.

Everybody thought I was so cool. You know, I'm walking around like this, you know, I'm on a Blackberry. What is that? You're getting an email that way. And then within two years, I'm a dinosaur. You know, the evolution, AI, a lot of people say, I don't need this. What is this? What's this all about? Well, your example there is the perfect one of how it can help you do things better. You have to embrace new technology. And salespeople, you know, we talk about customer relationship management software a lot. This is the, when you take all of the information and you put it in the pot and it's all shared. Salespeople don't like that because it's, I'd rather be out selling. I want to work with customers. I don't want to enter data in systems, but CRMs has changed our industry. Salesforce.com, for example, of being able to take data. And, uh, I used to have training programs and salespeople would be going and kicking and screaming. I don't want to do this. I have my own notes. You know, I keep it on a piece of paper. I got it all this way.

I don't want to answer data. And so it's embracing new technology. And now, I mean, a year ago, you know, AI, you know, yeah, we was talking about it, but not like, certainly not using it like we are now, correct?

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely, it's definitely changing the game. But one of the things is there is a hesitation around it for two reasons I hear most often. One is it might be wrong, and the other is because it's not relevant to me. And so in both of those cases, that is something that if you're prepared for that, it's still a very useful tool. So I...

I not that this we're not talking about AI specifically, but that's just an example. What you said about technology and this be really being relevant is yes, technology is there to help you do the parts of your job that only you can do. So if you think about that, you know, like CRMs, you're right. You would rather be out there selling, oh my God, CRMs are painful sometimes. And, but you know, the power of a CRM is that you can search everything. So one of the topics I, one of the things I teach with Productivity Gladiator is about

uploading your brain. How do you finally remember everything? And the way you do is by not keeping it up here. You have to write it down. So having the CRM with notes for yourself about what are their kids' names? What are the pets' names that you learned? So that when you go do the human part that you can do, or like with families, if you write these things down, if you have a good system for keeping the things you need to remember not up here, oh man.

the power of that is awesome because then you can reference back to it later and you know where that information is even though you can't remember it up here. So it's just funny you brought up the CRM thing because oh man.

Dean Karrel

Yeah, as with the training classes that I've done here, we all used to have the folder, which I still have the folders because I'm a dinosaur salesperson. I still have folders and stuff. But what you have to do with the CRM or any new technology, as you add things, you must eliminate things. That's one of the messages you talk about in your work is about managing your time. And if you could add on CRM, but that means you have to get rid of eliminate the folders or eliminate the notes and put it in the CRM. So it goes back to, I think you've called it like the currency of your life is your time. Correct. And, and how you manage that. And it's a, so it's, um, it goes back to going, doing your research and planning and preparation and learning about you before this. And that's an example, right?

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah. Good memory.

You hear that? Dean, Dean gets an A. Dean gets an A for this. He watched my Ted talk. He remembers the quote. Dean, A plus marks, sir. I'm so honored. I got...

Dean Karrel

Well, there's a lesson. So you want to talk about a lesson? So when you meet somebody, AI can't do that. AI could say you did a TED Talk, which it did, or on your bio talks, but actually me watching you that. I said, okay, I learned more about you. So this is something, a good lesson here is AI can help guide you, but the one-on-one of you and me right now, AI can't do. It's me watching you on stage and seeing your energy and enthusiasm for the topic.

That's what came across. That's what I learned about you. So how do I differentiate myself as a salesperson versus all the other people who are out there is it's taking that extra time to do. Let me watch Brian's Ted talk. You know, it's 18 minutes and right. And I learned a lot about you, your style and your energy, all the things I just said, and it makes an impression, right?

Dean actually took the time to watch this. Dean watched, read my website, looked at things. So how do you as a salesperson, or how is you as a product manager? If you're making a presentation to a group of people in a committee, it's learning about those people beforehand. That's what sales is about no matter what job you're in, is taking the time to learn about people before you meet.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Relationships, customer relationships are key. And what you said is really true in that all of this technology helps us. And ultimately it comes down to the relationships. Most people know this and you probably know this, but the people you know, referrals, like you and I work in a business where referrals is it. People refer us, we talk to someone, they like us, they refer us to somebody else. Referrals are the key and that will never be done with AI ever. Like, or they...

because the person to person thing is never going to go away. The decision makers will always be a person. Even if AI helps a lot of that, the person is still gonna be making the decisions. So going back to our topic for the episode, your kids are still gonna be the one making the decision. Your bosses are still gonna be making decisions. So talking to them as a person and getting, like Dean said, getting to know, doing your homework, knowing about them so you can put it in terms of them. And-

treat them as the person in the relationship. Oh man, like that's invaluable Dean. I love that point. That was good.

Dean Karrel

Well, those are, these are things they don't teach at the Harvard Business School or Stanford Business School. These are lessons of life. And that's the lessons that I talk about with my family and with my friends is, you know, this is, you don't need an MBA or a PhD to figure these things out. It's being authentic. It's being genuine. And it goes down to what you're.

I always talk about the most important thing is what your character is. So in the middle part of my career, as I told you, I tried to change my style a bit and I was a little bit more aggressive and doing the whole, you know, the whole hand movement and stuff. It wasn't me. And it's how do you act when you think no one's good looking at you? You know, how do you act when somebody needs help on the street, trying to cross the street, do you help them or do you keep moving on? How do you act when no one's looking? And, you know, a story I use for that one is the.

I worked in New York City for many years and I used to go to the same coffee shop every day. It's New York City, so it's crazy. The cars are honking. And in New York, they've got the coffee flying and the bagels going and they have it down to a fast system, getting in and out. I went to the same place every day. Well, one day I'm in there and this is the era of when we all wore ties or jackets and this was a casual day for me, meaning I was wearing this, which is casual for me.

And I'm in this coffee shop and something was fouled up. They were getting behind with their orders and everything. And the guy in front of me started getting snippy. Hey, hurry up with my order. Hurry up. And I knew these people behind the counter. And I said to this guy, you know, hey, take it easy. They're doing the best they can. Now, this is like 730 in the morning on a Monday. It's like, what's going on? I mean, I'm going from zero to 100 on Monday morning.

And he gave me the look and he goes, why don't you mind your own business? Fast forward, you know, two hours later, somebody comes into my office and they say, Dean, I'm interviewing some candidates for a job and I'm, perhaps I need to get the second interview and my boss isn't in. Do you mind doing the second interview with somebody? Well, low and behold, who walks in from the coffee shop? Now he's looking, he's looking at me like, how does he know me? And then the, the manager saying,

Brian Nelson-Palmer

It's that guy.

Dean Karrel

This is John Doe and I go, oh no, we've met. And then I said, hey, how was your coffee? And he went white. He went totally white. And a couple of lessons with that, there's two parts of this. I never brought it up to the hiring manager. I would have if there was a flip of a coin. I would have said, you know what, you've got to watch this guy's character because something happened. But I didn't bring it up.

But you know what was interesting? That guy who acted so inappropriately with me, he actually brought it up during his interview saying, you know what, I owe Dean Karrel an apology. This is what happened. And the hiring manager said, well, Dean never told me about that. So it was like a good news thing. It ended up okay after the end of it. And I ended up knowing that guy later on, he never got that job with their company, but it was just an interesting, how do you act when nobody's looking, was he didn't act too well.

And lo and behold, I came back to bite him, but it ended up working out okay in the end. But it's a, I always say, you know, it's a be yourself, be genuine, and your character is who you, the core of who you really are. Whether you're my kids, whether the people who work with me, or certainly you learn that from your managers and the people you report to. You learn a lot how they act when, you know, in their roles.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. It is really tempting sometimes to not be of high character and integrity sometimes when nobody's looking. Like it's really tempting to try to cheat or to try to, and what you say really is true, which is if you, what goes around comes around in my life has definitely been so true. And even though in the moment something will seem so unfair because it went to somebody else or something.

What goes around comes around eventually. So I love that. I love that metaphor in that story. Man, coffee shop in New York, there you go. Ha ha.

Dean Karrel

Yeah. Well, I'd say, you know, there are some, I'd say, you've worked for a variety of different people in your career. I'm sure some of them really good and some of them mediocre. I've learned the most from managers who were mediocre. Because I knew that's not how, whenever I ran an organization or managed people, I knew I would never act that way. You know, there are those who, you know, the tough boss.

dictatorship, management through intimidation. And you realize, wow, that's no good. I mean, the company Simon & Schuster since changed. I mean, they're a really great company now. But there was an era there where they were known to be extremely difficult company to work at. At Prontosolver, I first started, my first eight years I had two managers, two managers in eight years. At eight years at Simon & Schuster, I had eight different managers. It was a revolving blower of people coming and going.

It was a great company, best sellers and all of that, but it was an organization where the culture was one of stress and high maintenance. And I knew, at least for me, that was not the approach that I want. Some people thrive in that environment, the high pressure, high stress. I know I don't, and I mean, life's too short. So the lesson I tell people is, when you're interviewing for a company and I'm interviewing with you, Brian, I wanna know about you.

And if you come across as tough and arrogant, I don't know if I want to work with you. So you're interviewing with the company and doing your research about the company, what their reputation and culture might be. And some people will thrive in intense stressful environment and some people don't like it. And I survived eight years, how I don't know, but you know, so.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah. And you know, I, Dean, I'm going to, I gave you an A plus. So now I'm going to earn my A plus, which is the story he just told about being prepared for an interview is straight out of one of the books. So this is one of the, I'm sure, I'm holding it up to the camera. I'll put a link to it, but this is mastering the basics by Dean Carol. And he talks about, uh, do everyday skills. And that's why Dean and I, I love chatting with Dean. Dean and I, he's like a brother from another mother for me, because we talk about

everyday, real practical lessons. And there's a lot in here. And one of the lessons that I was reading right before was that one he just shared that you're interviewing the company, they're not just interviewing you. So little plug for Dean there, if you wanna check out his book. It's a lot of, none of it's too, it's not a long read. I love it, cause it's very short, little practical one page, two page stories and lessons. But there's almost 200 tips in there. So if you're just starting out in your career or an aspiring leader,

There's a lot of really good little nuggets that's not too overpowering. I enjoyed it, so appreciate that.

Dean Karrel

Well, the lesson there also, Brian, is thank you so much for bringing that up, is there's always gonna be somebody that will do the strategic plan for the company, who'll do the chief financial planning, financial officer work, the financial work. There are always people at that top level take care of that. How do you manage a situation of just being intimidated in a group meeting? And these are some of the topics that I talk about. How do you speak up? How do you raise your hand? How do you handle it when somebody does say no?

How do you handle if you get let go? Do you, you know, I've been in situations where, I was at the last company I was at, we did have to make a lot of changes and people were let go in every company, in every industry. And people are let go sometimes very poorly and sometimes people who are let go handle it poorly. It's a business decision and they burned a bridge.

and you never burn a bridge, meaning you never, Brian, I'm never gonna talk to you again. No, you never know. Life may come around and it does. It's amazing how, you know, I talk about, I left Wiley eight, nine years ago, and I left on good terms. I was in great company. I worked there for 20 years. And a lot of people who left and went on to other places, a good many of them went to LinkedIn. And lo and behold, these people at LinkedIn,

said to me, Dean, could you do some sales training courses? So that's how I got connected with them, which is another tip of the importance of another word that makes us cringe sometimes is networking. And we think of networking as like a little badge that says, hi, I'm Brian, or hi, I'm Dean. And it's like coffee break, networking break for over a cup of coffee at a conference. Networking is just how you and I met. I met you through one of your other participants on an episode, we've talked, I've watched your work, and now we're friends, and now I know you. So it's the basic skills of communicating and reaching out with others.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. You know, so we've been talking for a little bit. I want to go through a couple other scenarios before we hit the end of our time. So one of the questions I wanted to ask you, Dean, is, all right, now let's look at this through the lens of your boss, because pretty much everybody in the workforce, unless you work for yourself, you have a boss. And so when you're dealing or trying to sell your boss on an idea,

Do you have any funny stories or tactics or advice on that topic?

Dean Karrel

Well, your boss is reporting to somebody also. And it's a, I had a boss at my last company named George Stanley, who I've known for close to 30 years. And the guy has no ego. He was the best boss to ever work for. He managed, he was like, like in a football game where you have somebody who blocks and gets people out of their way. He would keep upper management away from me so that I could go out and work with customers. And so the tactic with him was,

Dean, as long as you're performing and as long as you're continuing to hit your numbers and do it, I'll keep management away from you. And so it's against a two-way street. We're working with customers. Your manager and your boss has obligations too. They've got a salary that they want to hit and they've got obligation objectives that they want to hit. So how can you help them? So with George and myself, it was he would manage up and I would be able to manage.

out. So it's recognizing what situation your manager, you know, might be in. At Simon and Chisholm, I had managers who were such that no matter what I did, I couldn't make them happy because it was the attitude of more, more. So that's where you have to learn. If that's not going to be right for you, you have to move on. And my attitude about this and working with bosses,

and working with managers. There are managers and then there are leaders. And my philosophy about this has changed dramatically through the years where I used to say to people, try to work it out, meet with your tough boss, ask them what you're doing wrong, how you can improve. Yes, you need to do that. But there also is a point where you gotta move on. And it's knowing what that point is. And again, I'm not saying you do that. Every situation is different.

Don't go all go out now and quit your job. That's right. But it's having a plan of, I think you always have to have your resume updated. I think you always have to have your LinkedIn profile updated. And I think you always keep your eyes open for the next opportunity that may or may not be out there. But if you're not happy and a lesson of, if you're working with a boss,

Brian Nelson-Palmer

You're not telling you to quit your job right now. Calm down. I got it haha...

Dean Karrel

And I've said this, if your boss is not good and not helping you, you gotta find an exit strategy. Not tomorrow, but work out a plan for next month or six months from now, or say that by June 1, I wanna find that next opportunity. So the stories there are that, I've said that to people throughout my life, or certainly now in this later phase of my life, is you have a strategy of, the first strategy is, oh, just be quiet.

Suck it up, you'll be all right, stay there. The second one is look around for other opportunities, work with your manager to see if you can come up with better ways of working with he or she better. Number three is you're having a tough situation, keep your eyes open, get your resume ready, keep looking and start networking to look for those other opportunities. And then the fourth is the aggressive one where you say, I gotta get out right now. So there are four paths, I call them the paths, from conservative to aggressive.

And so let's say it's you've been doing that, you've done that, I've done that. And I think it's important for people like you and I who have been down that path to share those messages with people.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. It's that one of the best little pieces of advice I've ever gotten was a, was a boss who she said the only person who truly cares about your career is you. So if you're waiting for someone to hook you up or somebody says there's an opportunity or things, people say things, ultimately everybody is, it's the, what's in it for me. We were talking about earlier is also true about

like you in your career. So even though there are some great bosses, one of the best bosses I ever experienced was he truly did things for me. He really, he went out of his way to help. I'll never forget it was, he was the executive vice president and I was one of the general managers and I needed a suit, a special kind of suit for an event that I was going to that he wanted me to go to for the company. And I didn't.

have that and the suit was going to be fairly expensive. And so he said, look, go get the suit, send me the bill, but I want you to go do this thing. So like that's him being really good and he is not ultimately in charge of my career. I am so that dynamic of remembering that you're in the driver's seat of your life. I that's a good point. Dean. I like that a lot.

Dean Karrel

That's a tough one though. That's a, you know, cause you always think that somebody's going to be there to help you. And that's again, become more cynical through the years. Your sphere of really close friends is a lot smaller than you think. We all have a lot of acquaintances and we all have a lot of people we've crossed paths with, but at the end of the day, you do have to look out for yourself. That's a very important message you're giving Brian is that yes, okay, you know, your boss is going to try to help you, but.

and you have a great situation with that boss that did help you with the suit. But when you're looking for a job or you're looking for another opportunity and you reach out to people, I always say you reach out to 10 people, well unfortunately, only four people will get back to you. The other six that you thought were friends or you used to work with, where are they? It's not there. So that's a wake up call. You control your destiny and you get help along the way with other.

You had that manager that you worked for that helped you. I was blessed that my first manager was a guy by the name of Gary Gutchell. I worked for him for 18 months. And his lessons were, show up on time, smile, family comes first, and ask for help when you need it. Don't be afraid to ask for help. I reported to him for 18 months. But the lessons that I learned from those 18 months, I was friends with him.

Sadly, he passed away this past year at 86, but he was a lifetime mentor, friend, coach, because again, the basics of, show up on time. How many times have you gone to a meeting and somebody's 10 minutes late? Where are you? How, right? How difficult is that? Is that freshman business class at Harvard? No, that is Brian and Dean Basics 101. Show up on time, you know. And that's what Brian would, that's what Gary would teach me, those types of skills.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Man, yep. Now, I wanna flip the script one more time. One last question for you, Dean, and that's now let's flip the scenario and now you're trying to sell. You are the manager and you're selling down, right? So now you have people reporting to you underneath you and we need to take things in a different direction. We need to change. We need to, whatever we were doing wasn't working. So if you're in that and you're selling them on, here is the new path.

Here's the path we should take. If you're in that scenario, Dean, what stories and what tactics come to mind for you?

Dean Karrel

Oh, it's tough. That is so tough. And I had been there. I had the greatest job in the world at sales director at Wiley, and then the world changed in 2008, 2010. The retailers began to close. There were shifts in business. People were buying more digital books in our industry, similar to music, similar to every industry. Things changed. So instead of growing and coaching and motivating and encouraging, I was reorganizing and restructuring and I had to convey a message of that the world's changed. And I got good for a while there at Corporate Speak. You know, you know, the world's changed and the business models are different, so we need to make some restructuring and organizational changes. And it was, you know, yay, yay. And what people want to hear, though, is unfortunately the world is changing and it is impacting your world.

and where we're going in the future is, candidly, we have to scale back. You know, you can't, you wanna be able to say, well, we're gonna try to hold you on as long as we can. You gotta be honest and say, you know what? I have a feeling your role's gonna change in the next six months. People want honesty. They're adults. And so when you work with your teams and work with the staff is, people, oh, whether in good times and bad, people wanna be communicated with like adults. They wanna hear the truth.

Corporate speak is a lot of baloney that people can read through very quickly. So it goes to those foundations that I have to be a good manager. It's reputation. You have a good reputation. You have credibility. You have integrity. And then I go back to that word again, character. Those are the four pillars of being a good manager and a good leader of those skills. So when I've worked with people in a very difficult time at Wiley, where hundreds of people were let go.

in different areas of the company. It's showing empathy, showing care, showing compassion, showing understanding and saying, you know what, this does stink and I'm not happy, but this is the reality and we're gonna do everything we can to help you find the next job. I'm fortunate in, I was the bad guy and that's why I left. I couldn't take it anymore. And you know, it's, but it's, it's.

I'm blessed in that in probably 95% of the people I had to let go, I'm still professionally in touch with and still friends with a good many of them. I mean, a few things went sideways and that's normal because I was the bad guy. But people want honesty and empathy, care and compassion. No matter what level and no matter what job you have as a leader is honesty. Look people in the eye and say, Brian, X, Y and Z.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

want to yes and you on this one, Dean. Yes, honesty and treating the person as a person is a big one. And I learned a good lesson from one of your colleagues, Dr. Todd Dewett in the episode that we did on we were talking about telling stories. And one of the things that he shared as a supervisor talking down is if you're going to tell someone that there's going to be a change or something's changing, use the power of a story to go with it, because the story answers the question of why. And if they understand why, then that helps. It doesn't always fix, right? Getting laid off is never fun. No matter what the why is, that's not going to help them. But if they understand why the business is making a change or something, that allows you, Dean, to keep in touch with them later because they know why that you were doing this. And it wasn't because they were a bad or you didn't like them or whatever. If you give them the why, the why helps a lot and telling the why in the form of a story is a really powerful thing. And that was that, that's a very cool, very cool.

Dean Karrel

It's a good point there of the stories that a lot of our conversation today has been about stories and storytelling is great about, it's important in sales or important if you're a project manager, important in marketing, is showing where things have worked prior and where there's been hurdles in the past and using actual examples. And so again, in my case, it was very easy to say.

Borders bookstores have gone out of business. Certain retailers are no longer carrying books anymore. For the right reasons and wrong reasons, Amazon has become more powerful in distributing books. So you could see, you say, look in your own hometown. Look at St. Petersburg, you used to have a lot of bookstores. There's a couple of Barnes and Nobles and Books of Millions and so forth, but there's not the corner bookstore anymore. The world has changed and...

Again, you can go through any profession that's happened. So that's how you tell the stories. Look in your own backyard how things have changed. Look at your own buying habits, how things have changed. And people wanna hear that. Doesn't make it any easier, but if you're honest and open and understanding, at least you're able to convey that message. Todd Doit, by the way, is a superstar. That's an episode that I really enjoyed watching.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. And I certainly you can you can check that episode out if you want to learn about telling a good story. Dr. Todd definitely shared some awesome insights with us. So thanks so much for that. So one of the things, Dean, is that I know you and I could just keep talking because we're both like brother from another mother. And my gosh, it's about the basics in real life and not what they teach you at Harvard Business School. I always used to say for me, it's the lessons they didn't teach you in school and the skills they didn't teach you in school when you get out.

So I feel like we can keep going and we can't keep going forever, but we can absolutely reconnect and do this again. So I do. I want to wrap and here's what I want to. I want to end with this. What I want to say is here's what I love. Dean, I love that you're sharing very practical lessons about what real life is and the skills that you need in real life, whether you check out his book on mastering the basics or you're listening to some of the stuff that he does or you go check out a LinkedIn learning.

session that he has. There's a lot of knowledge that's available and what I love, I love that you make it very practical with the good stories and the context to go with it, Dean. So thank you for doing what you do and thank you for coming and talking to me for a little bit today and sharing with us some of that knowledge and some of those stories. I really appreciate it, sir.

Dean Karrel

Brian, we really connected and the reason why we connected is we're being open, honest and just being ourselves. And I think that's an important message is at the end of the day, you can't fake it. And so flaws and all you and me, uh, this is who we are. And how do you build on the strengths you have? Certainly your energy, your enthusiasm, your care for people comes across very, very openly and same with me. And, uh, it's, uh, so you build on that. And, uh,

Maybe you and I run the strategic planning for IBM or some high tech company somewhere, but we will find the path and that's what you've done and that's what I've done that helps people out and in your case, what you're doing with your organization now. So again, I'm so grateful that we've met and you've let me join you today.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. We'll definitely keep in touch. And for you listening, who, if they want to keep in touch with you, Dean, what would you recommend? How do they keep in touch with you if they want to check you out or get in touch with you later?

Dean Karrel

I post regularly on LinkedIn a couple of times a week. I do either do a video or I do a photo story or a comment. I talk about sales related issues, business related topics on LinkedIn. So Dean Karrel, K-A-R-R-E-L. Don't worry about Twitter. Don't worry about Facebook, any of the social media. I'm LinkedIn is where I'm at and that these are the messages that we talked about today. And that's what I talk about on LinkedIn.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (56:51.074)

Dean's committed. He's a LinkedIn guy. That's cool. I'll make sure I share those. I'll share those, those links with you here in the episode notes and for you tuning in. So here's, I got two last opportunities for you. The first one is, if you have a friend or colleague who's in sales or really an aspiring leader somewhere, sales skills are something that you'll use as you rise up in your career. So I, I know Dean and myself would both love if you share this episode specifically with them, because you can certainly tell somebody, Oh, you should check out the productivity gladiator podcast.

But actually having an episode to start with is a hugely helpful thing. And it's also really helpful because that furthers the relationship with them. You sent them a specific one because you thought about them and that's awesome. So I hope you'll share this episode with them. And of course, thanks for subscribing. Thanks for leaving a review to this show. And you can certainly subscribe to the email list if life balance or personal practical productivity are meaningful to you. I do have an email list where I offer something a little extra for you. So...

Don't worry, I don't email every day, but if that's something that's valuable to you, I certainly would welcome you to join the group. So I love sharing Productivity Gladiator with you. That's a wrap.

Could This Meeting Have Been An Email? - 28 Hacks, Tips, & Tricks

Ever been in a meeting and thought “UGH, this meeting could have been an email?”

This episode is a massive knowledge share, where Brian reveals some of the tips, tricks, and hacks he teaches in his training on this topic. It’s time to pull back the curtain on meeting efficiency, effectiveness, and skill.

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The Audio/Podcast

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Links to References In This Episode

• My Facebook Reel that went viral and inspired the idea for this episode.

• The research I mentioned showing when people are most likely to say yes.

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Episode Digest

New Type Of Episode starting 2024

This is a massive knowledge share. I’m going to be doing more of these as well.

The idea for episodes like this came from a Facebook Reel I shared that went viral last year. It was a simple knowledge hack, but based on the engagement it was something people were interested in.

Through Productivity Gladiator I teach personal practical productivity skills. I have a lot of knowledge and hacks to share. The episodes with guests with guests deliver practical and interesting takeaways, and I also want to share all the hacks and tips that I’m delivering in my workshops as well.

here’s the overall concept to remember: Synchronous or Asynchronous Communication

Does the person receiving the communication need to be there receiving it at the same time you’re sending it?

Synchronous is received live at the exact same moment the person is speaking it:
Examples: Meetings, Phone calls.

Asynchronous is received at some point (could be shortly, or much longer, after):
Example: Email, shared Google or Sharepoint Documents, teams/slack messages

List of # Tips & Hacks

1. A meeting is likely a good idea if: Everyone can/should contribute real time

   • Yes for developing the solution to a problem, brainstorming, or a situation where there are a lot of questions to be answered.

   • No - if you’re just going to ask them to send you an email later with their ideas, or if you were just going to mute their mics anyway.

2. A meeting is likely a good idea if: Time is short, you can’t wait for everyone to get back to you via a return message.

3. A meeting is likely a good idea if: Messages have gone back and forth several times already.

4. A meeting is likely a good idea if: Messaging has created more questions than answers.

5. A meeting is likely a good idea if: You need someone to say yes.

   • Most likely to say yes in the first half of the morning, or the first 2 hours after lunch.

6. A meeting is NOT needed if: Everyone is not expected to actively contribute

   • Examples: status meetings, staff meetings

   • Favorite phrase to put perspective on whether this meeting is needed: “There’s a lot of money in this room” (how much everyone’s time is worth)

7. A meeting is NOT needed if: Everyone who needs to speak cannot attend

8. A meeting is NOT needed if: This is just a chance for you to read to everyone the info sent in advance.

9. A successful meeting is on TAPP

   • Timely Start and End

   • Agenda - Provided ahead of time.

     • If it’s not on the agenda, add it to the next meeting, or let participants have input to add it to this one.

   • Preparation - What do people need to bring, or do, in advance?

   • Purpose - Why are we having this meeting?

10. How many meetings per day?

    • Optimal - no more than half your day. Research says somewhere in the 3-4 hours total per day.

    • Ideally grouped together. Better to have a block of meetings and time before and/or after

    • NOTE: It’s often not up to you, I get it, just something that’s helpful to keep in mind.

11. Meeting Success Tip - Record The Meeting – For anyone who cannot attend, they can watch the recording, no need to “catch people up” who were out. (tip, watch at 2x or 3x speed)

12. Meeting Success Tip - Record Action Items - Review these at the end of the meeting.

13. Meeting Success Tip - Acknowledge The People Then Proceed - Even if it’s brief or intros necessary, then start agenda.

14. Common Meeting Mistake - DO NOT: Ignore the agenda.

15. Common Meeting Mistake - DO NOT: Catch people up, who are late to the meeting.

16. Common Meeting Mistake - DO NOT: Run over the allotted time - Ask permission first if you only need ## minutes, or schedule another time to meet to continue.

17. Meeting Alternatives - If you DO NOT need confirmation message received (ex: if they missed the meeting, no makeup needed)

    • Recorded Video (Video Podcast) (all 3 types of people: watch, listen & read)

    • Podcast/Audio Message - Recorded Announcements

    • Teams/Slack Channel discussion

    • Email

    • Cloud Document - Shared Link. (everyone provides ideas)

18. Meeting Alternatives - If you DO need confirmation of message received (ex: if they missed meeting you would need to meet with person who missed to make it up. This is probably rare.

    • Send Email - Read Receipt Requested

    • Send out a Form/Survey - Completion Required

    • This could be a video, audio, written, or recommend all three.

    • Online Training

    • Send out a Survey (Microsoft Form)

    • Create Powerapp to automate follow-up.

19. HYBRID MEETING TIP - Everyone who speaks is on camera on their own individual camera.

    • In a conference room, everyone bring your own laptop

20. HYBRID MEETING TIP - “Spotlight” the person speaking.

    • Designate whose job this is in the beginning

    • Important if more than 10 people in meeting.

21. HYBRID MEETING TIP - Collaboration done through meeting software.

    • Virtual Whiteboard gets way more interaction than live whiteboard with camera on it.

22. ONLINE MEETING TIP - Important Meeting Options (Set by host):

    • Who can bypass the lobby? - “Everyone” Unless you want popups disrupting your meeting

    • Leverage Co-Organizers to help mute/control/spotlight.

    • Allow mic for attendees?

      • For big meetings, likely “no”. Add person as Co-Organizer if they need to speak.

    • Allow camera for attendees?

    • Allow meeting chat? (would Q&A be better?)

23. HYBRID/ONLINE MEETING PRO MOVE: Host mutes, don’t ask the crowd to.

    • None of this “Everyone Mute Your Lines”

24. HYBRID/ONLINE MEETING PRO MOVE: Take breaks at least every 50 minutes. Tell them you’ll do this up front. People need “bio breaks” and “brain breaks. If you don’t, you’ll lose them.

25. TIP ON CHANGING MEETING CULTURE - Imagine it’s your meeting someone says “this doesn’t need to be a meeting”. You’ve had this meeting weekly for 2 years? You (or the person you’re talking to) may go through the stages of grief about this. (Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance)

26. TIP ON CHANGING MEETING CULTURE: Their Idea & Be Kind

    • If you can, let them think it’s there idea, see if they take the hint and do it on their own

    • Be kind, be positive, don’t lead with “this meeting is a waste”.

27. TIP ON CHANGING MEETING CULTURE - Start with your own. Sometimes if it’s effective, people will copycat you, then everyone wins, and they’ll think it’s their idea (Story: Video Podcast idea)

28. 2 questions to ask yourself to determine, should this be a meeting

    • Will it be a value add for everyone at this meeting to contribute to the meeting

      • Hint: will you be disabling the mics/cameras/chat during the meeting? Record it and send it on its own.

    • If someone is out on vacation and misses this, they won’t need to make it up?

How YOU Can Shift A Meeting To An Email

Phase 1 - Set Up The Solution

• Start recording your team’s meetings

• Post the video recordings on an internal blog page

  • Copy/paste the transcript at the bottom of the page

  • Copy/paste the short summary, key takeaways, and action items at the top under the video

  • HACK: Copy/paste the transcript into AI and ask AI to generate these

• Create a distribution list so the above is automatically sent to everyone in the group.

  Phase 2 - Use Recorded Video Instead

• Once this structure is working, try one recording the video in advance instead of having a live meeting.

  Demo - See what This Looks Like

• Individual Blog Page for each meeting
  productivitygladiator.com/example-blog-meeting-page

• How the Summary Page & Search Feature work

  • Imagine this is a page of your meeting recordings.

  • Type “frog” into the search bar above the episodes
    productivitygladiator.com/the-show
    

I can help your team with this! Can I come talk to your team about this?

Sometimes it’s scary to bring this up from inside the organization due to office politics or not wanting to rock the boat by recommending someone above you change. Businesses bring me in to help with this, it’s what I do.

I teach a workshop on this topic specifically.

If I can help, reach out to me, lets chat. Connect me with your workplace, lets set up a session for me to talk about this for your team.

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian does special zoom events and shares hacks and tips exclusively for his email subscribers. Topics like “13 alternatives to checking social media on your phone” or “2 email rules which will cut your email inbox in half” and more. Sign up to start receiving the tips from these exclusive events!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. These Gladiators wield email management superpowers, a laser-guided ability to focus, samurai-grade prioritization skills, a sniper-precise task tracking approach, Jedi time management skills, and a secret sauce for maximizing their personal life balance. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer

“UGH, this meeting could have been an email!” Ever had that thought? I have thought that so many times over my career. I can't even tell you. So I want to share. Gosh, I've got more than 30 tips for you on meeting efficiency and effectiveness. So this whole episode is about dropping knowledge bombs. And this is something new that I want to do for 2024. If you've been checking out the show, I've had a lot of guests on the show and

An amazing thing happened, which is last year, one of my guests, I did an episode with Eric Gerard and we talked about, it was 10 time management hacks for new managers. And one of the tips that I shared went viral. And it was about not sending an email to schedule a meeting. You should just be able to go on, see the scheduling link and send them a request, instead of emailing back and forth to try to figure out when you're going to schedule that meeting. And so,

that clip on Facebook and I'll drop the link to that particular reel. It was a Facebook reel and I posted it and four months now it has continued to get likes and views, it's up over, it's got several hundred thousand views at this point with 900, probably a thousand likes by the time you're hearing this and lots of comments and it's still very active to this day. It's still going.

and because people are very interested in that topic. So I took a note and it was like, gosh, you know, people are clearly interested in this topic. But the other thing is, if you've been following the show, you certainly know that I'm curious about productivity and I share tips on productivity with these great guests. But what you might not know if you've been following the show is that businesses hire me to come in and teach their people these concepts. So Productivity Gladiator, I teach personal practical productivity skills, time management, email inbox to zero.

focus, prioritization and not being overwhelmed, to-do list hacking, life balance skills. And one of my workshops is, this meeting could have been an email. I actually come in and I teach this topic. So I wanted to share all of these thoughts. I just wanna share them all with you because I want you to be better about this. So here are all my tips. I'm just gonna lay them out there for you one at a time. This is a knowledge bomb episode where let's just talk.

So now before we get into the tips, one context that I think it's important to understand is meetings and the topic of communication. There are two types of communication. You've got synchronous and asynchronous. Synchronous are like meetings and phone calls. This is where the person receiving the communication is receiving it right at the time you're sending it. So as I'm speaking live, you are listening live at the very same time.

So that's synchronous communication. Asynchronous would mean you are receiving it later than I'm sending it. So that would be like an email. Or if you have maybe a shared Google doc or a SharePoint document online, or you sent a Teams or a Slack message, that's it. That would be asynchronous. One of the ones that's kind of confusing is you ever had a text message and they got the little three dots that show up because you're waiting for them to text and they hit send.

and then you receive and you see the text, that is asynchronous communication. Even though it's very close, the moment they're typing it is not the moment you're seeing that text until later. So that's the difference between asynchronous and synchronous. And that is the basis for, does this need to be a meeting or could it have been an email? Could we have done this without you listening live while the person is talking?

And so we're going to talk all about those efficiencies. But I want you to understand synchronous or asynchronous as we go forward, because communication strategies for your team are going to be big regarding whether it needs to be synchronous or asynchronous. And I want you to see it and think about it that way. So here's the list of tips.

A meeting is likely a good idea if everyone can and should contribute real time. So what I mean by that, think about a meeting where you're developing a solution to a problem, you're brainstorming, or you've got a situation where there are a lot of questions that need to be answered. So the back and forth real time live is going to happen between the people in the meeting. Then that is a meeting is a good idea. So it's not a good idea. If

you don't need feedback from those people. If there, if you were going to mute everybody's mic anyway, and no one was going to get to talk, maybe not. Or if you, my supervisor the other day had a meeting where she shared an idea and then she asked us to send her an email later with whatever our response was to that idea. Well, if you didn't want me to respond live, maybe that didn't need to be a meeting.

Next, a meeting is a good idea if time is short and you can't wait for everyone to get back to you to with a return message, right? So I prefer to send emails and let people get back to me when they can. But if time is short and I need a response, I need to send something right now, I'm not gonna have time to send an email and wait or send a Teams or a Slack message and wait for their response. Then...

Pick up the phone, it's time for real time, or let's have a meeting. We don't have time to wait for everybody to get back to us. That's another time where a meeting is probably a good idea. Next, a meeting is likely a good idea if messages have gone back and forth several times already and you're not accomplishing what you set out to do. If you send an email and said, hey, I need...

You know, here's the following questions that I had. Can you tell me about this? And then they reply back and say, well, what about this? Or what about this? And they respond with questions instead of answers. And then you go back and try to get the answers again, and then they come back with more questions. A meeting is likely a good idea because you're gonna need to be real time so that you can get the answers that you seek. That's a time when a meeting might be a good idea.

A meeting is likely a good idea if the messaging has created more questions than answers. There was a situation where the communication was getting confused. It didn't come across well via email. So I asked for a certain, I needed a certain thing back from this one team and they came back to me and said, well, but what about this? And our manager is out. So maybe that we should get something else. And I didn't get.

the answers that I needed, they just had more questions. And then there's more questions. If you find you're digging yourself a hole and the emails go from getting shorter to getting longer, that's a time when a meeting is probably a good idea so you can get to the bottom.

A meeting is likely a good idea if you need someone to say yes. There's an interesting statistic. They did a study where people are more likely to say yes in the first half of their morning or in the first two hours after lunch. So if you need someone to say yes, if you need your boss to say yes, if you've got a proposal that you need somebody to sign off on, it's probably a good idea to have

it's a good idea to set a meeting if you need them to say yes. The other day my boss asked me to put together a summary of what I needed from her supervisor. So two levels above me. In that situation I went back to my boss and asked, hey can you schedule a meeting? Go ahead and tee up the meeting, here's the topic, but I would like to make the request. Because if you need a yes, asking it via email, it is much easier to say no to an email than it is to say no to a person, to a human being.

So a meeting is a good idea if you need to say yes. And that little tip, first half of the morning or the first two hours after lunch, the odds are slightly better that they'll say yes. There's a funny study about that. Now, a meeting is a good idea if time is short and you can't wait for everyone to respond to that message. So if things are running behind and you need

If time is short.

Maybe it's time, pick up the phone, call the person, synchronous communication might be faster. So jump into that. Now let's talk about when a meeting is not needed. A meeting is not needed if everyone is not expected to actively contribute. Here's my favorite example of this is status meetings or staff meetings. You don't have to do these as a meeting. You could absolutely have each person record

their update and you could share those updates because it doesn't matter whether I'm there live in the meeting or not to hear that status. As long as I get that information, it could have been asynchronous, right? We talked about synchronous and asynchronous. It could have been asynchronous. I could have gotten it later. So that's an example of things that are not necessary. Now, I, my favorite phrase is, gosh, there's a lot of money in this room.

And what I mean by that is if you look at all the people that are attending this meeting and all the salaries that they're getting paid, that's a lot of money in that room. The business is paying a lot of money for those people to be there right then as opposed to doing something else, doing their job. So that's a great metaphor that you can use if somebody is having a meeting and it's not really necessary. You could say, you know, there's a lot of money in this room, maybe with the value of everyone's time, maybe we could do this another way. That's another way you could push back.

A meeting is not needed if everyone who needs to speak cannot attend.

If you've ever been in a meeting, I was in a meeting the other day where we needed to hear from three or four of the stakeholders, and only two of them were there. And the project manager did not cancel the meeting. Instead, she brought everyone who was working on the project in to hear from the two stakeholders, only to then invite us to another meeting again later with those two stakeholders and the other stakeholders. Again, that was a waste. We didn't need that meeting.

So if everyone can't attend, cannot, who needs to speak cannot be there, a meeting's not needed. A meeting is not needed if this is just a chance for you to read to everyone the info that was sent in advance. You ever had a meeting where there was an email and they called you into the meeting just so they could read the email?

That's a waste of a meeting. It happened to me two weeks ago, and I was so frustrated that was a meeting.

Now let's talk about successful meetings. On the flip side of this, my metaphor, my acronym is TAPP. A successful meeting is on TAPP. And what I mean by that, TAPP is T-A-P-P. Timely, there's an agenda, preparation, and purpose. So timely, meaning there is a start and an end to that meeting. Be specific about those times and hold to those times. Agenda is important.

It needs to be provided ahead of time so you know what you're talking about. If it's a status meeting that's just sitting on the calendar, there should be an agenda for that status meeting. If there's not an agenda, cancel that meeting. If you don't have anything to talk about, cancel that meeting. So if, and by the way, if it's not on the agenda, don't talk about it. Add to the next meeting. Because the agenda is what you showed up to discuss. So follow the agenda. That's courtesy to the people that are in your meeting.

The first P of tap is preparation. So what do people need to bring or do in advance? Is there something that they need to read? Is there something that they need to watch? What is the preparation that they need to provide? And it's possible the preparation will be zero. You don't have to prepare, I need to get your thoughts on this, whatever topic is. You can put that in your meeting notes, no preparation necessary.

And the last is the purpose. Why are we having this meeting? Like what is the outcome? What is the reason for that meeting? So if it's on TAPP it's timely, there's an agenda, there's the preparation people need to make has been outlined and the purpose of the meeting is outlined. A successful meeting is on TAPP

Now, next up, How many meetings per day? Here's an interesting topic for you. Research has kind of shown that optimal would be no more than half your day in meetings, somewhere in the three to four hour range per day That would be optimal if you have a heavy meeting type of job. Not everybody has these, but if your job is one where you're in a lot of meetings.

If half your day is meetings, that's a good target because it still allows you the other part of the day to be productive in other things. Ideally, if you have one of those jobs and you can group your meetings together, you don't always have control over this, but if you can help schedule it so that they are all grouped together, it's better to have a block of meetings all at once, three or four meetings, than it is to have a meeting at eight, and then at 10, and then at 12, and then at two, and then.

then you're back and forth and you're switching. It's better to just have work time and meeting time and try to keep the meetings together. And also, I recognize it's not always up to you. So sometimes you have to go to, it might not always be optimal, but if you have control and say over these meetings and you're, or you're hosting the meetings, try to set yourself up for that three to four hours a day, half of your day, and try to group them together if you can.

Now let's talk about meeting success tips. I have a lot of these. So here's some. Meeting success tip, record the meeting. For anyone who cannot attend the meeting, they can watch the recording because you don't have to meet with them later to catch people up on what they missed. And by the way, if you have to catch up on one and you're watching the video, oftentimes you can watch it at two times or three times speed. I love that where you can catch up quicker on

what you missed. Oftentimes people speaking, even if you were to listen to this podcast or watch this video on two times or three times speed, you would still understand what I'm saying, even sped up. So try it out if you haven't done that already. Meeting success tip, record the action items and review these items at the end of the meeting. If you got together and there is some sort of result from your meeting, make sure you capture that. Nothing is more frustrating than spending

only to discuss things that people need to do. And they'll say in the meeting, you've seen it. You've watched somebody say, oh yeah, that's my thing. I'll take care of that. And they don't write it down. It's not captured anywhere. Nobody reminds them. And then guess what? They forget. So make sure you record the action items from a meeting.

Here's a common meeting mistake, which is, do not ignore the agenda. This is my favorite story. We had a senior level manager come in and visit my manager's meeting that we had with the team. And my manager, the senior manager came in, we had an agenda, we knew what we were gonna talk about, and the senior manager came in and hijacked.

the meeting and took it in a totally different direction. And we did not accomplish any of the things on the agenda because it just got hijacked. So do not ignore the agenda. I know this, you can't always help this. If the senior manager wants to chat, they're going to sometimes, but try to steer it. If you're the host of the meeting, it's on you to steer it so that you stay on task on the agenda. Here's a meeting success tip. Acknowledge the people.

then proceed. Even if it's brief intros or at least even if it's brief intros or acknowledging the people by name or thanking them, acknowledging them, the people part of the meeting is important. These are the people that you're working with. So make sure that you are acknowledging those in the room before you jump right into the agenda. Acknowledging them kind of appreciates them as taking their time to be there

and that part's important. If it's a big meeting, you might not be able to acknowledge everyone individually, but acknowledge them as a group then if it's not individually. So hey, thank you so much to this director and this director and these people, and thank you, the team in this group for being here, or acknowledge the people. Here's a common meeting mistake. Do not catch people up who are late to a meeting. Here's, I...

I had a team lead who used to do this and it used to drive me crazy because I would be on time to the meeting and my team lead would start and then three minutes somebody would sign on three minutes late and she would stop our meeting so that she could acknowledge the person who came in and then she would proceed to recap the last three minutes for the person who was three minutes late. Don't do that. If you're recording the meeting, they can always catch up.

They'll get the hang of it, but it's kind of insulting to the people in the meeting if you're catching the people up who are late, then why was I on time if you're gonna catch the people up who are late? I'll just be late next time.

Here's a common meeting mistake. Do not run over the allotted time you asked for. We talked about a meeting being on TAPP in a previous note here. And TAPP means timely. To the T of TAPP means timely. So if you asked for an hour, do not run over an hour. Or if you're coming up to it, it happens sometimes. You had an hour, you probably with five more minutes we could probably finish, but acknowledging people's time as being important

is respectful on your part as the meeting host. So if you're gonna run over by five minutes, you stop five minutes before and you say, hey, it's looking like we're gonna run over by a little bit. Would it be better for me to schedule another time for us to come back and talk, or can I run over by about five minutes? And let them have a say in it because they will be more engaged if they have the chance to say, yes, let me run over, or they'll let you know, no, I can't, and then schedule another time.

make it up later, but don't run over the allotted time. And ask permission first.

Now let's talk about meeting alternatives. You do not need, if you do not need confirmation that the message was received, a meeting alternative might be good, right? So an example, if somebody missed the meeting and they don't need to make up that meeting, then it's possible you could do an alternative. What are those alternatives? You could do a recorded video message.

This is a podcast. That's a recorded video message. It's a video podcast. A recorded message is great, because remember there's three types of people. There's the people who watch, the people who listen, and the people who read. So if you can hit all three of those, that's more effective than even having the meeting, because then you appeal to the three types of people. So you could do a recorded video, you could do a podcast or an audio message.

You could do a team or Slack, Microsoft Teams or Slack, if you have that at your work. You could do a discussion on this topic instead of having to have a meeting on it. You could ask people's thoughts. You could brainstorm in a Slack channel. You could send it via an email or if it's a combined group of thoughts, you could create a document in the cloud and you could share the link to that document. So everyone can provide their ideas if you're looking for feedback. So these are alternatives to having a meeting.

is one of those things.

Now, here's meeting alternatives if you do need confirmation that they received the message. So, for example, if they missed the meeting, you would need to meet with this person separately to get their response or their confirmation. So these are rare. This might be like mandatory meetings or policy updates or something where somebody has to sign off. That would be the situation. So these will be rare, but there are still alternatives to meetings. Here they are. You could send an email with the read receipt.

Request it meaning you'll have confirmation that they clicked and that they read the message That's an easy way if you have a small team and that's not going to be an unruly number of people You could easily do that and get confirmation You could have them fill out a quick form or a survey If you want to make sure they read it, maybe the survey is all the information you need to send it at the bottom They check. Yes. I read this and hit submit That's a way to send a message and get confirmation that it was received from everyone who received it

that might be different than a meeting and more effective because you'll have confirmation. This could be a video, audio, written communication, or all three. You could do that with the form or the survey that you send. You could also do it with online training. You might have online training platforms in your organization.

you can make online training videos. So if you need to teach someone something or it's a skill, instead of just having a meeting and hoping that they remember, you could record it ahead of time as a training and let them take the training as needed. Then you'll have a recording of who took the training and passed the test at the end. You could send out a survey. Use Microsoft Forms, Google Forms. There's all these different ways of sending out surveys.

If you need people's thoughts, you could send out a survey and that might be more effective at getting everyone's response and having it recorded. Also, if you wanna get really advanced, if you use, if you're a part of the mic, if your organization is part of Microsoft, they have the Microsoft Power Apps. And there are other platforms that are just like Microsoft if you're not a Microsoft person. But Power Apps is a, you could create an app that records who...

watched or who took the survey, who watched the video, and then if they didn't, it could continue to remind them. You could build it so that it continues to remind them to watch this video or whatever this message was that you needed to communicate. So those are all alternatives to actually having a meeting. If you don't need everybody's response, but you need to make sure they received the message, those are ways to do it without having a meeting and oftentimes going to be more effective.

Here's a hybrid meeting tip.

Everyone who speaks is on camera, on their own individual camera. If you're in a conference room, don't do that thing where you have the video camera set up in the conference room. And so for everybody who in a hybrid meeting, there's some people virtual, some people in person, the people in person in the room have the luxury of seeing the person live and right there, but you on the camera, the people that are hybrid who are remote,

can't see that person. So that means in a hybrid meeting, bring your laptop. And if you're speaking, your personal laptop is open. You joined the meeting room and your camera is on so that the people that are at home or at a remote and the people who are live in the room can see your face up close, just like this.

Here's a hybrid meeting tip. Spotlight the person who's speaking. At the beginning of the meeting, you can designate, it's someone's job to do this, but somebody is in charge. If it's a big meeting, if it's more than five or six people in the meeting, that means everybody's cameras are gonna be these tiny little things. So it's gonna be somebody's job to spotlight. In Microsoft Teams, it's called spotlight.

each of the apps, Zoom calls it something else, but there is a way where you can spotlight that person so that their camera is bigger. Their video is bigger for everyone else watching. That is a much better experience. So if it's more than six or more than 10 people, somebody's in charge of spotlighting. Make sure that you do that.

Here's a hybrid meeting tip. Collaboration done through meeting software is a much better experience if you use something like a whiteboard or a live document or something, than it is by just having it put in the chat. So if you're trying to collaborate, make sure that you're using

some sort of shared way for everyone to share their ideas at the same time or collaborate at the same time. Send a link, use a whiteboard, do something like that. Just sharing comments in the chat can get unruly really quickly and can get unorganized and you'll lose track of some of those. So leverage those opportunities to collaborate virtually. I've actually found it's more effective to collaborate with everyone on their own computers virtually than it is to have a whiteboard in a meeting room.

because you still need to get what's on the whiteboard into the computer. So it's actually more efficient to just do it that way. That's been really interesting. So hybrid meetings are good. Collaboration is important. Here's another online meeting tip. If you're having an online meeting, here are the options you should set as the host. First, who can bypass the lobby? Everyone, unless you want the pop-ups to disrupt your meeting with

people is someone's waiting in the lobby, something's waiting in the lobby. If you're having a big meeting, just let everyone bypass the lobby. If they have the link, they probably need to be there unless this is some big public forum. Also leverage co-organizers. It's not just you. Once the meeting starts, even if you don't invite them or set it up ahead of time, you can add people as co-organizers. They can help you with the lobby and with muting people and that kind of stuff. Answer the question on allowing mics for attendees. You can enable or disable that.

mic setting. So decide now if you want your organizers can unmute themselves, but everyone who's participating can't unmute their mic. So you can avoid the, hey, someone's, you know, didn't mute their mic. You don't have to do that. Also,

Remember to decide whether you want to allow cameras or not for the attendees. Sometimes it's easier if you're doing a presentation. It's going to be better for the people tuning in to not be able to have their camera on. That way it's the presenter and the video and the videos of the people aren't necessarily distracting. So think about that ahead of time. You can enable their mics, you can enable their cameras, and the last thing you can do is the meeting chat. You can enable and disable that. So

If you want feedback or people to be able to type questions while you're chatting, question and answer and chat are two different things. So think about that if you're the host of the meeting. This is important for having a good online meeting. Remember to change those settings.

Here's a hybrid online meeting pro move.

Just mute the mics, don't ask the crowd to. I don't care if I never go to another meeting where somebody says, someone's mic is not muted, everyone remember to mute your mics. Here's the reality, the host of the meeting can mute everyone's mics. So please do not be that person who just tells people your mic's not muted or oh my gosh, calling them out in the middle. I was in a meeting the other day and somebody called out.

Excuse me, Susie, your mic's on. I need you to mute your mic. That host could have right clicked on Susie's name and hit mute. So please, please take care of the muting and don't interrupt the meeting for the mute situation.

Here's another hybrid or online meeting pro move. Take breaks every 50 minutes. Just do it. Tell them you're gonna do it upfront. If it's a two hour meeting, if it's a three hour meeting, 50 minutes, take a break. Because people need bio breaks and brain breaks. So if you don't, they're gonna leave in the middle of the meeting to go to the bathroom. They're gonna leave to check their email. They're mentally gonna phase out. People are good for about 50 minutes. So make sure you take that break.

at about the 50 minute mark, do 50 minutes out of every hour if you're gonna go for more than an hour. That way people have the chance to do the brain break and the bio break.

Now here's a tip on changing meeting culture. I just talked to all these reasons and shared all these reasons about how a meeting might or might not be appropriate or a good move. And if you have a standing meeting that you think doesn't need to be a meeting, that's, that's a hard conversation to have sometimes. So imagine if it was your meeting, you've had a meeting for two years that you thought was effective. It was working. A lot of people have the, if it ain't broke, don't fix it mentality. So.

If you or the person you're talking to had that meeting, they may go through the stages of grief about this, which is funny, but think about it. If you're gonna take it away, first they're gonna deny, oh, well, no, that meeting was good. What are you talking about? It was worth having that meeting. Then they're gonna be angry because you brought it up, or now somebody's taking it away. That's the stages of grief we're talking about. So now then there's anger, then there's bargaining.

Well, what if we only move to every other week or every third week? They're gonna try to keep the meeting somehow because they're going through these stages. Then they're gonna be depressed because they realize that, oh, maybe that meeting was really important or wasn't really important and I could have done that better. And then there's gonna be depression about it. And eventually they will get to acceptance. So just be prepared for the fact that meeting culture is ingrained. And if you're trying to change the meeting culture at your work, make sure

you're prepared for that. So a couple of tips on this. One, if you can, let them think it's their idea. Maybe you can have, I mean, invite me to come and do this session for your workplace or let them talk about meetings and let them recognize on their own that their meeting might not be necessary based on what the good meeting efficiency practice is. So see if you can make it their idea or kind of hint at it so they'll do it on their own. And the other thing is

Be kind and be positive if you're bringing it up to them. Don't lead with, man, this meeting is a waste because then they're just gonna dig in and oppose you on it. So that's just a tip on changing meeting culture. Here's another tip on changing meeting culture. If you got a lot of meetings in your organization or you're involved in them, start with your own. You're gonna be really tempted to hear this, see this, share it with people and think.

Yeah, that meeting's bad and that meeting's bad. You know, you hear the mow your own backyard first thing or there's, you have to clean up your own house before you can start talking about everyone else's. So with you, it will probably be more effective for you to start with your own meetings. Change your own meetings to video broadcasts or something like that. Show that it works and how effective it is. And if you show how good it is, the other people that have meetings might start to notice and follow suit.

and then it will be their idea that they decided to do it. So you can kind of make it infectious. But if you're frustrated with the meeting culture, start with your own.

Now, here's a fun one. These are the two questions that you should ask yourself to help you determine whether this should be a meeting or it could have been an email. First, will it be a value add for everyone at this meeting to contribute to the meeting? So for example, if you disabled the mics or the cameras or the chat during this meeting, would the meeting have been successful with those things disabled?

And if so, it probably doesn't need to be a meeting. It could have been something else. So that's the first question. Will it be a value add for everyone who's attending to contribute to the meeting? And then the second question is, if someone is out on vacation and they miss this.

If they won't need to make it up, it might not need to be a meeting because other recording that meeting or perhaps recording that meeting or using a video might be effective because if they don't need to be there live and they can catch up later, then maybe it wasn't necessary. So leverage those recordings.

Now, here's my question, which is if this is tough, or if you're in the middle of an ingrained, heavy meeting culture and you want change, sometimes it's easier if it doesn't come from you. If it comes from inside, it won't be well. And I can do that. So can I come talk to your team about this? Sometimes it's scary to bring it up. There's office politics around, hey, it's your boss's boss that has this pointless meeting. So it's gonna take somebody from the outside to point it out that that's a pointless meeting. So this is what

I do. Feel free to connect me with your workplace. Let's set up a session for me to talk to your team about this meeting could have been an email. It's on if you check out productivity gladiator.com, you look at the speaking and workshops, you'll see this session. So check it out. This is one of the really important education areas that I deliver for businesses. That's really helpful. So reach out to me. I would love to. And my last thing is, Do you have a friend or colleague who

struggles with meeting culture? I know one of your coworkers probably will identify with some of the stuff I've talked about. So if this would be helpful for them, share the link to this episode specifically with them. Productivity Gladiator is helpful, but it's really helpful. And it is a personal touch when you send them a specific episode and say, "Hey, I thought about you with this." So if you would send that to them, they'll probably be touched that you sent them specifically this one. And you can probably laugh together about some of these things

that we've talked about. So thank you very much for checking out this episode. Thanks for subscribing to the show and for the reviews online for the podcast and the video and everything. In your comments, if you have comments about these, this was a knowledge bomb episode. I have plans for lots of other knowledge bomb episodes about a lot of different topics. So if you have a topic that you're interested in, shoot me a note, let me know what that is. I'm happy to share a lot of knowledge because starting in 2024, I'm doing a lot of these kind of videos. So...

share with me, I'm happy to share what you need. So I love sharing this productivity gladiator thing with you. That's a wrap.

Productivity Vs. Wellbeing: The Surprising Truth on Making Them Coexist, With Jeanette Bronee

Can we be productive at work without ruining our own wellbeing? Jeanette Bronée shares insights gained while recovering from burnout and losing both parents. We discuss tangible ways individuals and leaders can shift perspectives to promote sustainable productivity grounded in humanity and wellbeing.

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The Audio/Podcast

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Links to References In This Episode

• Nail in the forehead video.

• Study from Finland on children, 15 minute break each hour for learning.

• Microsoft’s study on why you need breaks between meetings.

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Episode Digest

Achieving Balance: Productivity and Wellbeing in Harmony

The perpetual balancing act between workplace demands and personal wellbeing frequently fuels feelings of stress and inadequacy in the modern economy. We aim to seek success in our careers, often convinced we must sacrifice self-care along the way. It leaves professionals endlessly asking—can productivity and wellbeing peacefully coexist?

Fresh perspectives, such as from Jeanette Bronee, reveal achievable ways individuals and organizations can shift limiting attitudes about performance at the expense of health. They highlight small but mighty everyday habits that transform not only individual resilience, but ripple out to impact workplace cultures as a whole.

Reframing Wellness as a Lifelong Practice

An emerging view proposes letting go of thinking about wellness and self-care as a fixed goal, like pounds to shed or boxes to check off a list. Rather, it suggests embracing the ongoing daily relationship with caring for ourselves and listening in closely, without judgment, to what we need in each moment. Contentment comes from accepting our ever-changing state of balance, not upholding perfectionist expectations.

The Restorative Power of Mini-Breaks

Even small, 60-90 second pauses in the frenzied workday to simply breathe, move, or reset, prove powerful. These moments of micro-recovery improve mental clarity, energy renewal and sharper focus to tackle tasks at hand. Skipping our body’s cries for regular respite often backfires by depleting cognitive reserves and performance over time. Think of it, even boxers in the ring get breaks between rounds. Why shouldn’t you between activities?

Cultivating Emotional Wellbeing Accelerates Results

Physical health certainly impacts daily effectiveness, but science shows our emotional states wield equal influence. Feeling valued, seen, and heard has profound effects on motivation, engagement and work fulfillment. Those leading teams see substantially higher performance and retention by encouraging idea exchange and taking time to actively process responses. Fostering emotional health requires enhanced presence and listening—not necessarily extra minutes in the day.

Solutions Emerge by Reframing

Refocusing how we frame problems makes all the difference. When facing roadblocks, ask “What do we need to move forward?” rather than “Why isn’t this working?”. Leading with what IS possible sparks collaborative problem-solving, whereas dwelling on deficiencies fuels frustration. This outward and forward-looking orientation cultivates optimism and belief in our collective ability to handle uncertainties on the horizon.

Scheduling Intentional Transition Time

Back-to-back meetings often zap productivity despite tight scheduling. Agendas benefit from built-in buffers between sessions, allowing participants to solidify takeaways, recharge focus and emotionally transition between topics. Rather than defaulting to 30 or 60 minute blocks, strategically calendar 25 or 50 minute meetings, and hold to those time slots. Guarding 5-10 minutes between commitments grants much needed mental space. If you’re leading the meeting, you can also give everyone 1 minute at the beginning of your meeting, to afford them that time to process. Try taking a moment of silence in your next meeting, see how it works?

Leaders Set the Stage for Cultural Transformation

Individuals certainly own responsibility for self-care habits that enhance resilience. However, organizations seeking lasting change must evolve. Leadership carries responsibility for sowing seeds that gradually transform company culture and assumptions. Simple but consistent practices like starting meetings with one minute of quiet centering or group reflection demonstrates that employee health and humanity matter, not just performance.

In reality, the two aims need not compete—sustainable productivity requires sound wellbeing. By raising awareness and implementing small but consistent changes, both individuals and organizations make progress towards resilient cultures where people energize their best work without depleting inner reserves. What shifts might you experiment with to bring your physical, emotional and cognitive wellbeing into greater harmony this year?

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Key Quotes

"We do need to pause more. We need to be able to calm our nervous system down or we basically can't think straight. Um, some people will argue, well, I'm better at it than others. Yes, we all different at it. But if we don't pause throughout the day, if we don't do the, even the basics of water, food, and a couple of pauses and rest here and there, if we don't even do that, there's a good chance that cortisol just keeps rising and rising and rising and rising and rising all throughout the day."

“instead of running around taking care of me, could you come over here and sit down and just talk to me? I wanna know that you care about me. I don't need you to care for me.”

“It may be that they also feeling that they were dismissed in the previous meeting, and then they show up in this meeting and they're like, want to show that they know more because they are not feeling heard and seen.”

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Today’s Guest

Jeanette Bronée
Speaker, Culture Strategist, &
Author of “The Self-Care Mindset”

Jeanette is rethinking self-care in the workplace as the foundation for peak performance, engagement, and a culture where people belong and work better together.

As an internationally recognized self-care mindset expert, she has spoken at the United Nations, given keynotes across the US, and spoken to audiences on five continents. She shares the tools to reclaim agency and cultivate the human connection that helps us communicate and collaborate with curiosity and care so that we can navigate challenges, innovate, and grow stronger together in our constantly changing reality.

She gives us the C.A.R.E. driven framework so we can change our relationship with self-care at work in order to be busy and healthy at the same time, cultivating a culture where people create impact and sustainable success together. Her clients include IBM, BlackRock Lockheed Martin, Kaiser Permanente, Genentech, Microsoft, Facebook, ebay, Siemens, and more.

Her new book, “The Self Care Mindset, Rethinking How We Change and Grow, Harness Well Being and Reclaim Work Life Quality” is a book of tools to harness our human advantage to grow through adversity.

Website: jeanettebronee.com

Book: The Selfcare Mindset

Podcast: Pause On This

Blog: jeanettebronee.com/blog

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/jeanettebronee

Instagram: instagram.com/jeanettebronee

YouTube: youtube.com/@JeanetteBronee-PathforLife

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian does special zoom events and shares hacks and tips exclusively for his email subscribers. Topics like “13 alternatives to checking social media on your phone” or “2 email rules which will cut your email inbox in half” and more. Sign up to start receiving the tips from these exclusive events!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. These Gladiators wield email management superpowers, a laser-guided ability to focus, samurai-grade prioritization skills, a sniper-precise task tracking approach, Jedi time management skills, and a secret sauce for maximizing their personal life balance. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Transcript

Brian Nelson-Palmer

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. And on this show, I talk about life balance and personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, I have been so excited to talk about this topic because it's about productivity and wellbeing can't coexist or can they? That's the debate and it happens all the time. And with me on the show today is Jeanette Brunet. She's a culture strategist, author, and speaker on this topic. Jeanette, thanks so much for joining me today.

Jeanette Bronée

Thank you for having this conversation. I'm curious to see where we go.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Me too. It's going to be an adventure. I love it. And we're talking about productivity and wellbeing and whether they can coexist. What's your background? How does, how does your background relate to that for the, for the, for you who's listening.

Jeanette Bronée

Well, you know, I learned the hard way after two burnouts that, um, I needed to put wellbeing at the core of how I work. And, um, looking at it from a perspective that saying we don't have to choose between being successful and productive and reaching our goals or having our health, and I was like, something's wrong here if we have to choose between that. And it was also at the back end of

You know, I had lost both my parents to cancer a year apart. I had burned out twice. I was in the fashion industry. And I was told it was only a matter of when I was gonna get cancer too. And I was like, something's gotta change. And I've always been really ambitious. I've always wanted to grow and work hard and do all those things, but how I was doing it wasn't working. And so after I got that message, I was like, hmm. What do I do here? Like, how do I figure this out? What do I need to learn? And I realized that I needed to not only figure out how to be a teen with my own body, because I need my body to take care of me as much as my body needs me to take care of it. And really recognizing that, I was sort of pulling back out my old mindset from having been a competitive gymnast and being like, oh, wait a minute.

I am the performer. I'm the one that's doing the performing. So how do I integrate wellbeing and productivity or success and all of that? And so I started out on a whole new journey. I left the fashion industry. I went back to school. I started studying functional medicine, nutrition, health and wellbeing. I'd already started mindfulness for many years for my own piece, if you can call it that, but also because of all kinds of other things that happened after I came to America at the age of 26. And so I was starting to integrate all of those things. And I realized that supporting ourselves in reaching our goals is far more important than we realize.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. And so it's interesting because like you came, cancer was an indicator for you. For me, I got pulled into this and I'm really motivated by this because I'm a diabetic. And so it's like, it's interesting how health scares and certain scares can sometimes scare people into making some of the changes that they need. So here's hoping that you listening or not checking into this because you just had a health care too. I would love to be proactive. I know Jeanette and I both would love for this to be sort of a proactive conversation about how do we head this off now? Verk was having to wait until that moment. Oh man, for sure. And you know, Jeanette, when people, there's a lot of folks that talk about this topic. So one thing that I always love to ask, and I'm curious for you is what would you say makes you different from other folks who talk about, you know, this topic or wellbeing or productivity and that kind of thing?

Jeanette Bronée

I think one of the things that's important is that we don't think of well-being as a destination. It's not a goal that we reach. We tend to do that. We tend to look at it from the outside in. We tend to look at it as I need to lose certain amount of weight. I need to, you know, all of these goals that we have as if well-being and health is a checklist of like, okay, that means I'm okay.

And then instead realizing that it's a lot more about how we feel every single day. And we're not going to feel optimally every single day. And so really allowing, um, well-being to be part of our lives in a way that feels a little bit more, I don't know, like a, like a normal relationship, not one where we're like beating ourselves up because we're not doing enough. We're not at the gym enough. And, and I think it's a lot this. Like, I think the industry of self-care and health and wellbeing has done a disservice in a way to the humans that are the ones who need it, by making it really not only something we do after work and for many people self-care has become, especially lately, the thing we do to recover after work. And I think since the pandemic, we started shifting that relationship with self-care a little bit but we're not there yet. We're still thinking of it as almost like a treat and something that people who have money and time will do. Hence why we think that it won't fit in with productivity. Right, it's very often like, well, you know, you have to be in a gym, you have to do, like, it's so, it feels like we just need to demystify self-care and bring it down to a very human relationship level.

I don't know, did I answer your question? I think I carried on here, but.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

I mean, I feel like you drew right into the topic. I'm excited to get into it as well. I was just kind of curious on what makes you different. It sounds like you were saying.

Jeanette Bronée

Oh, that makes me different. Yes. What makes me different is that, you know, I think the fact that I have been a competitive gymnast since I was six years old and I grew up learning to have a relationship with my body in a way that I didn't, that I took it for granted, right? I took my body for granted because it was, it was doing what it needed to do. It was performing and so on and so forth. And I was training and I was doing all these things.

And yet at the same time too, I also knew that I was using my body to achieve the results that I was trying to get. And I was on this competitive team from what six years old till about what 18 or something. So that was, there was a big part of my upbringing. So I think that I'm very, um, sort of aware that, um, between that and then burnout and seeing my parents from cancer, that it's not just about knowing what to do. And, you know, at first, when I went back to school to study, it was like, you know, I just need to find out what, what I need to tell people to do and they'll do it. I was like, yeah, that's not how it works.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Not even a little bit. If they could take a pill, everybody would be on that pill. It'd be fine.

Jeanette Bronée

That's just not how it works. Right? It really isn't. And even though people come and say, I'm so confused. I don't know what to do. Tell me what to do and I'll do it. I was like, okay, I'll tell you what to do. And then when you come back next time, we'll talk about why you didn't do it. But then we'll take it one step at a time. Right? And like, I always knew that was.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Ha ha.

I feel like this is one of those coach memes or something, which is the it's like I'm imagining like a comic strip where it's like the person says, tell me what to do and I'll do it. And then the coach says, here, I'll tell you what to do. And then the next time, the and every other session after that is, okay, why didn't you do it? And why didn't you do it? This is well being I was totally why we're talking about this. Absolutely.

Jeanette Bronée

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what I saw consistently was that people said, I got busy at work. I got busy at work. So what I realized was we need to completely rethink our relationship with self care, with work, with others. And I was diving deeper into it and I realized we have three core relationships. The one we have with self, the one we have with others and the one we have with work. And they are always at play. It's not either or. And so what we often think of is that we need to do this at this time, do this at that time, do this at that time, right? We're trying to separate things out. And we saw that a lot during COVID as well, the people like, I need separation from things, but I live at work and I work at home, you know? And so...

I think rethinking and recognizing that we're really in a continuous relationship all the time with self, others and work and will always affect our choices. So if we can really look at it from that different mindset and I don't know, I'm told that most people don't think of it that way when they talk about well-being. They don't talk about it as much as I do as much more of a relationship we have including with others.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

So, you know, it sounds like we're, we've been talking a little bit about you. Let's dive into our topic. Cause I think it feeds right into what you were just saying, which is, so I, what I want to do is I want to look at this through a lens. Well, first I want to clarify. So when we think about, we're talking about productivity and wellbeing. And so we should set the stage. When I was thinking about this, I was thinking productivity as being productive at work.

I thought about wellbeing as what you and your body and yourself needs as a human being. That's how I was thinking it. Is that track with you too, Jeanette? Okay. So when we talk about this, then I want to talk about it first from the, from the person who is an employee, who is a worker. And then I want to talk about it from the perspective of a supervisor who now has a team underneath them of some size. So let's start for personally when it talks about productivity and wellbeing can't coexist or can they? What, how do you say, what would your, what's your advice to that person for themselves on this?

Jeanette Bronée

First, I want to say we're all different, right? We all need different things at different times. That's point one in well-being is that there is no one formula and we just follow that and there we are. We achieve well-being. So that's the one thing that I want to make sure that it's not a one size fits all, but rather it's a relationship we have with ourselves where we learn to listen and be like, hey, how am I doing in there right now? And what do I need right now so that I can whatever it is I need to do.

I think a lot of times I've been working with a lot of people that have been frontline workers, hospital workers, and so on and so forth, especially during the pandemic. And, and there was such a pressure on people to just be on all the time. And so I think in, in that scenario, it's a lot harder to think of wellbeing as a goal itself. And I think we really have to look at it as part of who we are. And that there is a lower wellbeing, better wellbeing, higher wellbeing, but there's always wellbeing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yes, it's more of a spectrum. It's not a pass-fail. Totally.

Jeanette Bronée

Right? And so we can have, oh, my wellbeing is pretty low today. You know, and then we're a little bit more leaning in to say, I need to take some more pauses or I need to make sure I get my lunch break today or I need to, like there's some small things that we can do. There's some really small things we can do to support ourselves because part of our wellbeing is our energy and focus and the ability to manage our attention, right? That's part of what wellbeing is. That's.

Kind of like that sort of mindset of mental wellbeing, if you can call it that, not the category of stress and breaking down or mental illness or stuff like that, but there's a mental health aspect that's with us or not all the time, right? It's like, it's again, it's a range. Am I foggy or am I clear? Am I tired or am I energized? Am I able to focus or not?

And so I think if we can start looking at it as that, we can become more granular about it. And then we have an emotional wellbeing that is about how we feel seen and heard, how we engage with others, right? And so that is actually, and that's what I found out when I was working with people, that actually is much more important, much more important for our wellbeing than anything else. It's feeling that we're not going it alone, that people listen to us, that they care about us, and that we are in a space where we matter. And so that doesn't cost time. It costs attention, but it doesn't actually cost time. So in that place, we can do something, but we need to do it together, right? So the individual can't really do that except patting themselves on the shoulder and saying, I'm okay, even if other people can't see me. So this is where the critical point of culture comes in.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

So with what you've said so far, I mean, we're describing kind of the concept and how it works. But what what's what do people do? What should they do to make sure they're kind of following what you said and addressing? What do you think?

Jeanette Bronée

Right, right. So I call it power pausing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Power, oh this is where, by the way, if you didn't see the adorable selfie that we took that's on this photo of this episode, that's what this is, right? Okay.

Jeanette Bronée

Yeah. May the pause be with you. And that's why I have a little pause button on my on my book. The pause button. Pause, pause, pause.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

May the paws be with you. I like it. I feel like every pet owner out there is loving this. Like, may the paws be with you.

Jeanette Bronée

Yes, a lot of people say, is it the pause or the paws?

Brian Nelson-Palmer

The paws or the paws? I got it. Okay, right.

Jeanette Bronée

Right. And I always say, well, may the pause be your force? Um, but, um, but yeah, so, you know, we do, we do need to learn to pause more. And that's where we get into this productivity angle, right? Because people are like, yeah, but I don't have time to pause. I need to be productive and so on and so forth. We do need to pause more. We need to be able to calm our nervous system down or we basically can't think straight. Um, some people will argue, well, I'm better at it than others. Yes, we all different at it. But If we don't pause throughout the day, if we don't do the, even the basics of water, food, and a couple of pauses and rest here and there, if we don't even do that, there's a good chance that cortisol just keeps rising and rising and rising and rising and rising all throughout the day. Right. And at some point in the middle of the day, we have met our limit. We've just met our limit and then it's down from there. Right. And there was a study on what happens to the brain if we don't pause between meetings and you can just see that the stress builds, builds. So there's no, it's no surprise that we don't pay attention anymore by meeting three. We're basically wasting time, but how do you prove that? Yes, I pause. So now I'm more productive. That's a, that's, that's a, that's a tough one. And it's really tough to convince people that works.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

What do you mean by so you say power pause or pause? What is that? Just stop and go and then back in. Is it take a break? Is it walk around? Is it? I mean, I know you're probably about to tell me all of those, but like talk a little bit about that.

Jeanette Bronée

Yes, it could be any of it, right? It could be, oh my God, I just need to exhale right now and lower my nervous level because I'm just like, you know, like my mind is running faster than I am and I'm actually not breathing. I just need to pause for one minute and breathe in through the nose and exhale through the mouth to allow my nervous system to calm down. That's the one minute power pause. And I always tell people, listen, the boxer does it every three minutes. He goes to the corner.

They go to the corner for a one minute power pause to shake off what just happened, drink some water and reclaim agency and move back in. Right. But it could also be that you need the five minutes of going to the restroom, getting water, getting something to eat, or you need some space and grace and because you're upset about something and you need to go and process it, you need a five minute walk. Maybe you need 15 minutes because you need to have a conversation with someone.

So in that power pause, it basically means we take a moment, we check in for a moment, say, how am I feeling in there right now? How is my mind going? Is it spinning and just like the thoughts are on top of them, each other, and maybe I'm just thinking about what I call the pothole, which is all the things that are broken, all the things that are not working. Is the mind just talking about this is not working, this is not working, this isn't working, right?

And so that is this moment of saying, where's my mind at right now? And the next one is how am I feeling? Like, where's my heart at? Where's my feelings at? Where's my emotions at? Because I think we often dismiss how we feel instead of listening to it and using it as information to make better choices.

Right. And then there's the mental pause. That's more like, how do we get into this constructive, collaborative growth mindset, right? And that's that will, we might need a little bit more of a distance from something before we lean back in. So I talk about the three power pauses, the physical, the emotional, and the mental one.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Got it. And would you say it's one of those where at a minimum, you start with a minute, like I mean, one minute, right? If it's an hour meeting, you're probably, I mean, I have days where I am back to back to back. And I mean, I am very much a project manager and a senior project manager. And those, those days are, are brutal when they happen. And even worse when they're 30 minute back to back to back. Oh man, then it really gets crazy. But I know that I could find a minute in there to just close, either close my eyes or not look at the screen and don't immediately check your phone. Don't go look at social media. Don't just breathe. And is it like that? You start with a minute. And then if you notice that at the end of that minute, you're going back into the next meeting and you don't feel any sort of difference, then maybe you're going for a five minute after the end of this one or checking on a lunch break.

You talked about a one, a five, a 15 minute, maybe a lunch. How do you sort of determine what you need?

Jeanette Bronée

I think that's where listening to ourselves comes in, right? Learning how to listen to ourselves. And then a lot of people will say, yes, but I can't, I don't have time. And that's where this, this might take a little bit of time to actually shift things a little bit. So it might not be that I can do it tomorrow because your, your calendar might be stacked up, but start building in some pauses. So we actually focus optimally for 45 to 90 minutes at a time. After that, we need to move. We need to stretch. We need to just loosen up. We need to loosen up our system. We need to get circulation back in our system. We actually need to just reset, right? And so if we believe that we can sit in this chair all day long and just keep going, keep going, keep going, and believe that we're productive just because we're on Zoom versus actually thinking about something completely different and not listening to what people are telling us.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah. Janelle, what's your, you just described how you've got a background as a gymnast. So you said get up and move around and I'm just imagining you doing like flips, cart wheels and like all kinds of what, what do you, what do you mean? Like move around? What are we talking about here?

Jeanette Bronée

I wish I was still doing cartwheels and flips. Not anymore. No, I just, I just stress. And even, I sometimes, I also change chair. So if I have a lot of back-to-back meetings, I will change my chair and that I sit differently. And so I'm, yeah, because different chairs have different kinds of support. And so, so I might do that. And so one of them is one that will rock back and forth, but I can't sit on that all day. Sometimes I need one where I just lean back a little bit and relax and the other one I'm very sort of engaged in my core. And so that helps me move and use my body a little bit. Sometimes I just get up and stretch like, you can even do it when sitting down or just like, oh, now you wanna do it, right? Now you wanna do it, now you wanna do it with me.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

I mean, you know, one side or I love I love the one. Yeah. If you're listening right now, I hope you're in on this too, right? Like mine is the one where you reach behind your back. I like the one where you tilt your head to one side and then you grab your opposite hand behind your back, you pull your opposite shoulder down and you do like this thing. You're like, that's good. And you pull. Yep. I like that one a lot about who in the afternoon I'm tracking with you on. Ooh, I like that.

Jeanette Bronée

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, standing up and just, you know, pull your leg back behind you so you can stretch that, you know, like lean on your table. And sometimes I'll just bend over as well and just reach the floor. And you can even do that sitting in a chair because you need to stretch the lower back a bit, you know. Just small things that allow the circulation to come back in the body. Cause I don't know about you, but if you're in pain, most people are not very nice.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Also true. Patience is not a virtue that many people have when they are in pain or they're hurting. So if your back hurts, you know, I'm actually I'm almost imagining or I'm thinking back to a cash when I was last time when I was working in the cubicle environment and I had my colleague had one of those bouncy balls like the big balls that it sat on and I'm almost a man and we had standing desks at that point too. So I'm imagining like, all right, well, if I'm 30 minute meetings, I got one as a standing. One is sitting in my chair and one is on the ball and like rotate them around to. And even that minute of shifting the chair, moving it out, resetting will also be kind of a pause to that's intriguing. Yeah.

Jeanette Bronée

Yep. Yeah. Jump up and down. So you get some heat back in the, there's so many little things we can do that take a minute, you know? And so, yeah, there's so much of that little stuff, but, and, and I will also say, let's pause together. You know, let's start a meeting by pausing together. And just when, as you start it, you can just say, all right, let's all land for a moment. Take a breath, exhale and just see if there's anything we need to just sort of process and put aside so we can be present right now.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

You know, I feel like that leads into my topic was the difference between what does the person do for themselves and then what does the supervisor do for the people. So I feel like that is a perfect example going into the supervisor thing. So let's jump to that, which is all right. Let's say you're over a team. You have people under you, however many people that is. What is the productivity versus well-being? How do they coexist? What do you? I mean, I love that idea, let's bring a pause into the beginning of a meeting and just take 30 seconds and just breathe. Boy, how different would you that even sounds weird to me broaching that idea to a meeting. But how cool would it be if you gave people that 30 seconds or a minute just to breathe a moment of subtle. It's like a moment of silence, but not because we're remembering somebody who passed away. It's really just your well being. So, all right. So, so talk about, talk about that.

Jeanette Bronée

You know, a lot of times we, um, arrive, um, with a lot on our plate, so to speak, meaning a lot in our mind, we're feeling things and we walk into a meeting, feeling things that happened in the last meeting has nothing to do with this meeting, but we've become reactive because of something happens in this meeting and we react, but it's actually nothing to do with this conversation, it might be something that's happening in another conversation. And so if a supervisor, any kind of leader of a conversation allows for more, what I call moments to say, hey, let's just pause on this for a moment. So if something comes up that we just all agree that, okay, let's just pause on this. Take it, take it, take a step back. Let's take a moment.

And then, then come back to the conversations as was that really what we were trying to achieve? Was this really where we were trying to solve the problem? What, what, what are really the things we need to discuss here? And so that we're almost like, we reset the meeting, right? There's a lot of times we start talking about something that might be. Not really like what I call fixing potholes, right? We, we very often, so if somebody comes into a meeting and it's irritated because of something that just happened, there's a good chance that they will start focusing on everything that's not working in the meeting.

Right. It may be that they also feeling that they were dismissed in the previous meeting, and then they show up in this meeting and they're like, want to show that they know more because they are feeling, you know, not heard and seen. And, and, and a supervisor won't know that happened. And then they are trying to manage a meeting where people might be a little aggressive with each other, or they might not be listening, or they might not be, they might just be talking over each other or whatever happens, right?

And so there is a, there's a, there's this thing that comes into our field of emotion that will disturb how we're actually engaging with each other, and that affects our productivity and our wellbeing at the same time.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah, that negative energy is gonna interrupt the meeting. It's gonna disrupt, it's gonna derail the conversation. The meeting's not gonna be productive. You're gonna leave feeling less, and then you're gonna go into your next meeting carrying all that with you. That’s true. How long? How long does that take? Is that one minute? I mean, give me a ballpark here. Not in it depends. Like, what are we talking about?

Jeanette Bronée

A lot of times when we're stacking meetings up like that, we're not giving people a chance to close one meeting and start the next in their mind or in their, in their emotional capacity. I think, I know I would rather give five minutes for that, you know, and, and if it's something that has been really stressful, maybe the person needs to go for a walk for 15 minutes and really shake it off. Because there is something that happens as well. When we give the mind the space and grace to disconnect from what just happened, we actually actively have to focus on something else. Because if not, we're just churning and churning and churning and overthinking the same thing. That's not helpful either.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

So is that it's almost like you as a supervisor could decide that you're going to do 25 minute meetings or 50 minute meetings, but you're not going to do like 30 or 60 because then you end up stacked with no break. So by making it 25 or making it 50, then you are leaving time for that person to breathe, to copy down all of the things that they need to do from that meeting to capture, get whatever it is out of their head and then compose themselves for the next meet, it allows for that mental pivot, right?

Jeanette Bronée

Yep. And at the same time too, if we're smart about it, you know, if we're closing a meeting and we need to recap a couple of things and just process it in our heads so that we know what are the next steps that's actually smarter to do right after the meeting than at the end of the day when we're tired and we've forgotten half of it. So if we actually had some space and room for that, you know,

There are studies that show, for example, kids, I think it's in Finland specifically. They have a lot of stuff studies that show the kids can have max 45 minutes of engagement. They need 15 minutes off and they focus and concentrate better. They learn more in classroom.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah. And so if we're, and if this is where we're putting it up for the kids, why do we not do that for ourselves as workers and for teams and for that kind of stuff like this? This is what all the research is saying. And yet we just, well, we've not a fit this meeting in it's gotta be today. So we're cramming it in between these things. And ultimately that's not gonna, but you know, Jeanette at the same time, there's, I mean like deadlines or a real thing and everybody's got a sense of urgency. If you've ever dealt with customers ever, every customer wants to be right now. They don't want to be, you know, the, I can't imagine looking at a customer or a problem issue or something and saying, you know, I'm going to need five minutes because I just came out of a really hectic meeting and it's not real.

Jeanette Bronée

Right. But what if you said it, but what if you said it this way? What if you didn't say it with the tone and the indication that you just had? I get you, I hear you. But what if you said, okay, I just came out of a meeting, there's something I need to close and process so I can be fully present and give you my attention the way you deserve.

Do you think that person would be like, nope, I'd rather that you come right now. You don't have to pay attention to me. You don't have to give me the, you know, I want you to sit here and struggle with what you just went through while you're talking to me. No, we all know that's not productive. So if we think of needing a pause as a weakness, we got pauses all wrong.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

So, you know, I'm almost imagining as a supervisor, you could even feed that into the beginning of your meeting, which is, okay, the meeting starts at whatever time and on the hour, like let's say, and you can just simply put a little sign, share your screen and put a sign up that says, I need you fully present. We are going to begin at three minutes after. There's no need for small talk right now. Close everything else out that you, you know, let yourself process, close out what you need. Or we can begin the meeting at three minutes after or something like that.

Jeanette Bronée

Yep. Or you can start closing meetings a little earlier. You know, but, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, there's a lot of ways that scheduling can be changed just slightly, right? We can have a 35 minute meeting and give people 10 minutes to close the last meeting and prepare for the next meeting. Cause how often are people not arriving? Not actually they're scrambling still when they're entering the meeting. Like we waste so much time not being prepared. But we're not giving people time to prepare, especially not emotionally and mentally.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah. Okay. So the pause, we've talked about the pause and I feel like we've talked about that for the person and for the, the super, the supervisor is there overall, we came into this talking about productivity and wellbeing can't coexist or can they? And I see where the pause feeds both of those. The pause definitely, if you pause, it allows the productivity to be better in meetings and in for yourself and situations. Are there other angles or other thoughts you have sort of in this, in the same vein? What other, say more.

Jeanette Bronée

Because as I also mentioned before, well-being has a lot to do with feeling that we contribute and that we matter, right? And so if a leader or supervisor doesn't give pause to make sure everybody's included.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Oh man, can we also honor right now for all the introverts out there? Can we just say the power of the pause? Because here's an interesting fact for you that I don't know if you know listening, but, or, and Jeanette, I don't know if this is for you, but one of the most fascinating things that I learned this, ironically enough, you can laugh at me for this, I learned this from dating. But if you go on a date with an introvert, if you're an extrovert and you're like, there's a moment of silence and you do that thing where you freak out and you're like, you can't, you got to fill the silence. You got to fill the void. Here's an interesting fact. Every introvert actually has a lot to say. And if you pause and let them contemplate it for a second and say, some of the funniest people I know are introverts, but you have to stop talking. You have to shut up and listen for them to say the hilarious stuff that they want to say. So I'm just, I'm just, I told, I'm sorry. I'm totally laughing and like totally sidetracked here because I'm thinking about man, the pause for all the introverts out there and all your staff and all your people that you work with that don't necessarily, they aren't right on it. Me talk, me talk, me talk, me talk, but they totally will talk if you ask them and pause long enough for them to participate.

Jeanette Bronée

Yeah. I have, I have found the best insights from making sure everybody pause right now, because I will say to people in a meeting, I'll say, can we just pause on this for a moment and see what comes up as we reflect on it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Ooh, that's a good quote. Can we just pause? Say that again? Can we…

Jeanette Bronée

Can we just pause on this for a moment and reflect on it and see what comes up as we do and then share that? You know, or is there something more that we need to ask? Is there something we haven't looked at?

Brian Nelson-Palmer

You know, I almost want to I want to I want I want you to write this one down if you're listening almost and try this instead of, you know, at the end of every meeting, you ask, is there anything else? What if instead of the phrase, is there anything else? What if you say instead that magical quote, can we pause for just a moment and see what comes up on this topic and just pause? Man, how cool would that be?

Jeanette Bronée

A lot of times, and we need to do that a little bit more than the last minute before. Right. And we can also encourage people to, Hey, when, once you get a chance to pause on this after the meeting, if there's anything that you feel that we missed, please jot it down and send it to me. We're giving permission to people to actually give a little bit of space to think.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. And you know, I, anybody who's been through public speaking training, like Jeanette and I both do a lot of this and the, who, one of the interesting, the best tips is you do not end with, are there any questions? That's the biggest no-no. So you as a manager, you as a leader, you as a project manager, if you're leading a meeting, do not end with, are there any questions? What you do is you say, now is a good point for discussion.

but I have a couple of things to wrap up before we conclude. And that way you get all your Q and A and then you take it back and you say, all right, my takeaways from this are this. If there's anything follow up with me after, but not ending with the Q and A. Ooh, that's like a, hmm, ooh.

Jeanette Bronée

That's a lot of times, um, when somebody has given you an answer to something instead of then jumping in and starting to discuss that answer. You can pause a little bit as you're digesting their answer as a leader too, so that they actually see that you are thinking about what they're just saying, and then you can say, that's, that, that's interesting. Is there more to that you want to, you know, is it, is it, is there more to that? And then people.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

My favorite phrase is say more on that. If something comes up, say more on that. And I'm processing and I don't know what to say yet. So I'm telling them to talk some more. Like, yeah.

Jeanette Bronée

Right, you could do that too. But you know, because I think that that's the one thing, right, is our wellbeing is very connected with reclaiming curiosity.

So by the way is productivity. I think. Because a lot of times we think of productivity as just getting it done, but how about getting it done right? Or how about getting it done in a way that's more effective. If we don't pause and ask, what is this for? What are we trying to achieve? And what's the best way to do that? We might just do what we've always done, even if it's not really working well.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Right. It's that, it's that idea of if you're in, you know, if you're focusing on the wellbeing, it makes sense that productivity will improve, even though it's almost counterintuitive. But if you're, if you're approaching this in a, in a better state of mind and a better place, you're going to be more effective. There's going to be less errors. There's going to be less issues. You're going to be in the right frame of mind and you'll be a little more focused on what that is, which is going to benefit everyone. So it totally makes sense that if you're standing up for the pause, you're standing up for productivity in a way.

Jeanette Bronée

Yeah, there you go. Can I add another layer to it?

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Ooh, I like layers. This is turning into like a wedding cake. I like this. This is fun. All right, what do we got? No, no. Oh, seriously? Oh, my God. I'm so the guy. Oh, vanilla with buttercream. Oh, gosh. All right, Jeanette, we're not getting married. That's it.

Jeanette Bronée

as long as it's chocolate. I know wedding cakes, I know wedding cakes can't be chocolate. I know, I know about to say you and I are not getting married or if we do we each need a wedding cake of our own.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Oh, I like that. That's even better. Nope. Two cakes. Yeah, yeah, let's do a New Year's cake instead of a wedding cake. This is good, all right. There we go. So what do you got?

Jeanette Bronée (41:43.474)

Yeah. No, no, don't worry. We're not getting married. Anybody, you know, no, no. Just, just give me the cake. Just give me the cake. That's it. There's two cakes. Yeah. All right. So all joking aside, but that was, now I know what you're tasting cake is. Um, so, you know, the other layer to this layer cake is when we pause, we can actually formulate a question in the direction of what it is we're trying to achieve. Because most of the time we ask, why was it not done? Why is it not working? Why are we not getting this together? We ask why not questions. Under stress, we become why noters.

We focus on what's not working, we're fixing potholes. And some people will know that fixing a pothole means the pothole will just come back. You actually have to completely redrain the area so that the pothole, you get to the root cause of the pothole and that's what you fix. And so instead, when we pause, instead of saying why is this not working, we can say, hmm.

This isn't working. What do we need so we can get it to work? Now you just automatically hijacked everyone's attention to focus on creativity and constructive collaboration.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

It's like instead of past focus, it's forward focus, future focus.

Jeanette Bronée

Yeah, yeah. And so if you're asking somebody why something's not working, you are already, their energy is already getting drained. Oh, you know the feeling, right? You now have to defend yourself. You have to work, like all of these, not only are you wasting time, you're wasting energy, you're feeling horrible, you feel attacked, you feel you did something wrong. It is actually affecting your wellbeing and your productivity. But if you're saying, hmm, that's not really working, what do we need so that we can get it done? What do you suggest?

Now our energy is going up, we feel we matter, and now our well-being is increasing.

I know these are weird, subtle things, but so is our wellbeing. And that's what I think is important piece here, right? That we are rethinking what does wellbeing look like. So it's not about being in the gym. It's about human relationships.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

You know, I'm having a like my synapses are like connecting in weird ways right now. And the one connection that I just made in my head was I heard something the other day that was really profound to me. And they did a study on how many people will respond to something that is feedback, something that's called feedback, something that's called survey or something where you ask for their advice. And people are way more likely to provide advice than they are to provide feedback or survey. And what I'm laughing about is we just said that feedback and survey are backwards looking, which is what you just said and re-reframed and people are more likely to provide advice for what we should do next, which is exactly the converse. It's like, whoa, it's all coming together. That's what we're talking about. So interesting. Ooh.

Jeanette Bronée

Yeah, yeah, and. One more layer. This is the icing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Another one? Oh my god. This is like the seven layer cake that I love at the bakery. Alright, let's go.

Jeanette Bronée

So what happens is that what we care about and what we worry about are also two sides of the same coin. So when we're looking back. It's very often all the things, or if we're looking at what's not working, it becomes the worry conversation. If we're talking about what do we need so that we can achieve this? Why does it matter? Who is it for all of those sort of like good questions that help frame how we solve the problem. Now we're tapping into what we care about and we're much more engaged.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

completely. That makes perfect sense. That's a lot of layers. I like this. Okay.

Jeanette Bronée

So, essentially it comes down to understanding not only how the mind works but how our nervous system and how our, how our mind heart connection sort of works together and thinking that we're not bringing our emotions with us to work is wrong. We need to do that because that is where we make wise decisions. It's also how we engage with other people and it's how we tap into what we care about.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

So can you share, so we just added a couple of layers and I feel like there's a lot of things floating around out there. Do you have like a story or like a kind of an example of sort of a before and after situation? I know I'm putting you on the spot here. Do you have something like that for?

Jeanette Bronée

There's a lot of them. Um, well, the one about worry and care, the one I can share with that, um, really had me stop in my tracks was when I was taking care of my dad while he was dying of cancer and I was the caregiver. And, um, of course I worried because we didn't know when he was going to die. We just, he would get, they'd given us six weeks and we were already pushing past six weeks. So it was like today, not today, like we were, we didn't know what we were up against, right. And, um, and I was, um, sort of running around, you know, taking care of him. And he asked, he said two things that had me stop in my tracks. The first one he said was, why are you so angry at me? And I said, I'm not angry at you. I was like, I'm not angry at you. Right. It was like the best words in the deck. I'm not angry at you. Right. That's the best way to answer. Right, but then I stopped and I was like, oh my God, I'm not angry at you. I'm angry at the situation. I think it's unfair that you're dying. I think it's unfair that, and all of these things that happen, right. And my mother had just died the year before. And so that was a real recognition that we react emotionally if we do not integrate our emotions and then he said, instead of running around taking care of me, could you come over here and sit down and just talk to me? I wanna know that you care about me. I don't need you to care for me. And that was also a really big shift in how I see the world, because I realized people don't need us to care for them. Actually, quite the opposite. We take over and we sort of like assume we know what they want or need and we take care of them. That's kind of like taking their agency away. But when we care about them, we have a conversation.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

That was such a good moment where you said he's he said come and talk to me. Say that again. So the

Jeanette Bronée

He said, can you come here and sit down and talk to me? I don't need you to care for me. I need to know that you care about me.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Help me don't care for me care about me. And I'm just connecting with if you've never seen the nail in the forehead video that went viral on YouTube, where it's the girl has got a nail in her forehead and the guy's like, I can fix that. And she's like, I don't need you to fix it. I just need you and I'm imagining like you that's with family that's with employees that's with co workers that's with you know, it's interesting that I feel like In work a lot of times, you're tasked with fixing the problem and it's almost like taking your power pause and re and thinking, okay, do I need to do this or do I need to just be there for the person so that they know that I care about them? That would be a huge wellbeing thing.

Jeanette Bronée

Yeah. And supporting them and saying, Hey, what do you need so you can get this done? So for example, right, there is, um, there was, um, a person who always came to work late, right? It was in my old life, um, of, of in retail, she was always coming to work late. And, um, instead of telling her you're always coming to work late, this is not okay next time you're fired, like I didn't do that. I said, instead, I was a very young manager, but my dad had taught me well. And, and I said, “so it's a problem that you're always coming late, partly because you need to be here on time, but you already know that you don't need me to tell you that, but also because of how it impacts everyone else around you. So what do you need so you can get here on time?”

That had a whole different conversation. Right. Because now she was telling me about her challenges to not only get out of the house, but also get transportation to get to work and now I could help her solve the problem instead, maybe not, but at least I could, number one, I could have some empathy and compassion so that she didn't feel that she was a bad person for coming late, but we could actually talk about it because now I could help her figure out. So part of that problem was that the person that was coming to pick up her child for daycare wasn't always consistent, right? And so she was then delayed and then everything was like, there was all these like, cause and effect, right? And so instead of her now feeling so stressed about being late, she could focus instead on solving that problem, which was, I need you to be here and show up consistently. And then she could do the same with that person. And then she could instead figure out, well, maybe it's better that I drop off my kid. Now I'm in charge. Like there was many different ways we now can help somebody solve the problem. Because just telling them, you can't be late anymore, you’ll get fired, isn't solving the problem. We're solving the wrong problem at least. We're solving the problem as somebody is late. The problem we really need to solve is getting there on time.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Sure. And that's, yeah. And it's also, it almost feeds back to that same, we were just talking about history focused versus forward focused, right? History focused would be, you've been late five times. What's the problem? Why? What was it? We were just saying, why not? Or why, why is that a problem? Why can't you get here on time? Versus what?

Jeanette Bronée

Right. Yeah, basically just saying to somebody, you're fired if you're not here on time next time. You know, but we're not actually helping the person get there on time.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Versus the forward looking of what, what do you need to get here on time? Or what would that look like? Or thinking about the future as opposed to the past? Interesting. Yeah.

Jeanette Bronée

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a conversation with a CEO who wanted his people to come back into the workplace after COVID, right? And he said, we're having such problems with people coming in, they don't wanna come in, da da. And this person had brought their child with them to work and the CFO, his CFO had gotten really upset and he was gonna send out a letter saying, you can't come to work with your kids. And I said, okay.

And he said, what should I do? I was like, well, number one, find out why it's a problem for the CFO that the kid is coming to work rather than just saying, don't send the letter or, you know, have a conversation about it. But I said, but, but why are your people not coming to work? Why are they bringing the child to work? That's, that's more interesting to understand not why it's a problem. They bring it to work, but why do they bring it to work? Right. And he was like, well, they don't have childcare. I was like, okay, so how do we solve childcare problem? By the end of the conversation, he realized he had a completely empty floor at his factory and he could hire, um, he could, he could create a childcare there for all his employees. He solved the problem. And then people would actually have their kids in the playroom or kindergarten or whatever that looks like. Right. I know there's a whole thing there with needing, um, you know, certified people and so on and so forth, but that's a problem we can solve.

If you're a company that wants your people to come back to work, and that is important for productivity, then solve the problem why they're not able to come back to work rather than just telling them you got to show up.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah. Man, that's big. There's a lot of that going around.

Jeanette Bronée

There was a company that started, they moved the business and people were like, the commute was too long. Well, they got a bus, a little mini pickup and they would pick up people where they used to go to work and bring them there. So now they didn't have to commute. In the same way, like their commute was taken care of. Right. And so if we can engage with people and ask them more questions, Not only are we supporting their wellbeing, we're also supporting productivity, I believe.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah, man. And that's a whole wormhole that we can, we'll save that one for another episode, Jeanette, on the whole coming back to work thing. And now, but the point is really good, which is ask the question from a forward looking perspective. And that's, that's a, I love that thought. That's a really wonderful thought.

This has been wonderful and I feel like we're sort of approaching. We've certainly gone on. We've got we've captured a lot of really good ideas here. So, Jenna, thanks for joining me today. I love to ask, are there any resources that you recommend on this topic? And by the way, insert, if you're not watching the video and you're listening to us, she's got this beautiful book that's behind her. So talk about your book, but then also talk about other resources on this area that you recommend or that you've enjoyed over the years.

Jeanette Bronée

Yeah. I do, I do write a blog every week or a newsletter every week that you can sign up for on my website, JeanettePonny.com. And you know, all of that, it's, I'm just sharing whatever comes to mind that I feel is something that might be a challenge and sharing tools for how to do that. I don't sell anything really, um, on my, on my website or my, or my, um, my newsletter other than, Hey, buy my book.

There's a lot of tools. I think of the book as a book of tools. And it's based on tools that I've learned through the years of coaching people. It's tools that I've learned myself through growing up with a dad who was always very proactive. He would always ask me questions and he would show me that growing me was to ask questions and helping me find my answers myself. And so that's a really good resource that I can highly recommend, right? I recommend my book.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

There we go. I will drop all of these will be links in the in the episode notes too. So this is great.

Jeanette Bronée

And you know what? I think also, um, mindfulness has been a really good teacher for me in the sense of the, the power pause. Um, so basically learning to meditate, even if it's for five minutes, because really what you're doing is you're training your mind, you're learning how to listen to your thoughts and a lot of people get it all wrong, they think that they have to like, not think that's not how it works, but you can direct where your thoughts are, where your attention is at. And we do that by telling your mind what to focus on. And so actually a very simple mindfulness practice could be a really good tool, even if it's just five minutes every day to learn how to train your mind, to pay attention to what you want it to pay attention to.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yep. And that's a super skill because just like we were talking about earlier with, if you're coming out of that meeting or you're really flustered or you're angry or you're upset or you got shut out or whatever it was to be able to breathe and then pause and then think about, okay, that was the past and this next meeting is not that. So figuring out how to redirect half of that is that's, that's partly meditation right there. That's a superpower.

Jeanette Bronée

Yep. Yeah. And the meditative practice of just following the breath in and out, you can't think about two things at the same time.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Oh, try me. I don't know. Hold on. Like, no, wait a minute. My reaction to that, you can't think about two things at the same time. And my thought was, oh, hold my beer. I got that. This is true. You can't focus on.

Jeanette Bronée

But you can think about two things right after each other. But at the very same time, so if you're saying to yourself, I'm breathing in, I'm breathing out, I'm breathing in, I'm breathing out. There might be a little notice over here that's trying to get your attention, but that's the training of the mind, right? Just follow and that can give you enough space and grace to be ready for what's next.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Well, Janette will, I'm going to, I'll certainly include all those links and those resources that you listed there. And we talked about your books. So that link will be in there as well. Um, here's what I love. I love that this started for you with a personal story and you followed it. I love that you're doing this.

You know, from gymnast to parents with cancer to then went back to school and now learning about it. And now you've turned it into a book and a thing. And I just I love that this is a passion and that you're talking about this thing. And I love how a lot of our advice today was, I feel like very practical little things that people could try right now. Like they don't need to go read your book to try some of the really cool ideas that Jenna gave today in what we've talked about.

And so I love, thank you so much for coming and joining me on the show today.

Jeanette Bronée

Thank you for having this conversation and for caring about people out there that need to learn whatever they can learn from your podcast on a regular basis. I appreciate you for that. Thank you.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. And is there any particular place that you talked about your blog or they can subscribe to the email list if they want to keep in touch with you? What's the best way would you say?

Jeanette Bronée

You can find me on LinkedIn and you can try me on Instagram, but I'm on and off active in messages and things like that. So that's a little harder, but try me on LinkedIn. And as I said, engage with me through the newsletter as well. That's a great way to hear my thoughts. And then, you know, I do, I am playing a little bit with my own podcast called Pause on This, but I'm not where you are, Brian, with that. That's just a very new little idea of mine.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

You know, all every journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step. So like I think one of my favorite quotes the other day that I saw was that, you know, if your hundredth episode of your podcast is going to be amazing, that doesn't make the first one suck any less like I had, man. I guess I appreciate the confidence. And I still think that I'm in the very beginning of my journey, too. So I appreciate that, Jeanette. But yes, so the podcast is that's cool. I'm going to I'll make sure I include that link in the episode notes here too

Jeanette Bronée

It does indeed. Yes, yes, I took a pause this summer with all of that, and I'm getting back on track with the things that I want to do.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Right. Yep. Being intentional about it. Not, not, not my goal with this show is not to be a famous podcast host. Like I do this because I love keeping in touch with the people that I've had the chance to come and speak with and will speak to in the future. And so this is a way that we can keep in touch and I don't love to write. So podcasts are perfect because I would rather have conversations and talk about this. I love this. So

Jeanette Bronée

There you go. That's how we keep the world alive, isn't it? It's through conversations.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Totally. Absolutely. Let's keep doing it. Let's keep doing it. And so for you tuning in, I have two things for you. The first one is on this episode specifically, do you have a friend or a colleague who you've talked to or you saw a post about or something, the whole conundrum of wellbeing or wellbeing and productivity? If you would share the link to this episode specifically with them.

Jeanette Bronée

You got it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

I know Janette and I would love to know that our conversation today went on and touched someone else that this is relevant to. And if you have a conversation with them about it, imagine what that would mean to them. So thank you for sharing this specific episode with them. And also the second thing is, if I also have an email list that I send special stuff out besides just the podcast episodes and stuff. So if you want to be a part of that email list for the special stuff, please come join the fun. That link will be in the episode notes as well. But I love sharing productivity gladiator with you. So that's a wrap.

Better Storytelling: Get What You Want @Work & @Home - with Dr. Todd Dewett

Dr. Todd Dewett joins Brian to dive into story telling at work and at home. They uncovered tips and tactics on how to tell better stories, when to leverage the power of a story, and where stories are most effective. These hacks will help you level up your story telling game, so you’ll shine even brighter at work, and in your personal life.

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The Audio/Podcast

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Links to References In This Episode

• LinkedIn Learning Course “Storytelling for Leaders” by Dr Todd Dewett

• Chris Rock bit excerpt Todd references: From Bigger & Blacker, segment on relationships

• Book: The Little Black Book of Leadership: Essential Advice for New Managers by Todd Dewett PhD

• Book: Show Your Ink: Stories About Leadership and Life by Todd Dewett PhD

• Book: Dancing with Monsters: A Tale About Leadership, Successss, and Overcoming Fears

  by Todd Dewett PhD

• Book: The Ten Delusions: And How To Survive Them Effectively by Todd Dewett

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Episode Digest

Storytelling is a powerful tool for connecting with people and getting your message across. In this episode of Productivity Gladiator, Brian Nelson-Palmer has an in-depth discussion with communication expert Dr. Todd Dewett about how to become a master storyteller.

The Core Elements of Storytelling

Todd outlines the basic structure that most good stories follow:

Act 1 introduces the characters and the situation they are in. Draw the audience in with an interesting predicament.

Act 2 escalates events and creates intrigue. Take the audience on an emotional journey.

Act 3 provides resolution and wraps up the story. Provide a satisfactory conclusion.

A compelling storyteller uses vivid details, varies their tone and pacing, and incorporates relatable characters and scenarios that tap into the audience's shared experiences. This emotional component takes the story beyond just relaying logical information.

When to Use Stories vs. Quick Answers

Stories shine when explaining the "why" behind something, rather than direct responses to simple questions. In professional settings with time limitations, opt for shorter anecdotes rather than long epics. Save the drawn out stories for rare occasions when you really want to drive home a point.

Dr. Dewett notes "Stories are special and should not be used all the time. It's just like your favorite food. If you eat it all the time, you become redundant and lose some love for it." Keep people engaged by strategically picking your storytelling moments.

Stories in Personal Relationships

Overusing stories with friends and partners can grow old quickly. Dr. Dewett suggests prompting loved ones for stories to give them a chance to share. This provides an opportunity to learn new things about each other, even after years together. Share new experiences to avoid repeating tired tales they've heard multiple times before.

Examples Bring the Principles to Life

Throughout the interview, Dr. Dewett illustrates effective storytelling through engaging examples from his own career as a professional speaker. He takes the audience on a journey, using vocal inflection, passion, and practical takeaways people can relate to.

His stories showcase how following a narrative structure and making it personally resonate grabs attention even when delivering difficult messages. Dr. Dewett notes that reading the room and adjusting your delivery based on reactions is also crucial for successful storytelling.

Key Quotes

"Stories are the key to getting what you want in life because it helps people get on board. They relate to stories."

"Stories are special and should not be used all the time. It's just like your favorite food. If you eat it all the time, you become redundant and lose some love for it."

"If you're going to tell them the why, it should be a story."

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Today’s Guest

Dr. Todd Dewett
Master StoryTeller, Speaker, Author

Dr. Todd Dewett is one of the world’s most watched leadership personalities: an authenticity expert, best-selling online course creator, a TEDx speaker, and an Inc. Magazine Top 100 leadership speaker. He has been quoted widely, including the New York Times, BusinessWeek, and TIME.

After beginning his career with Andersen Consulting and Ernst & Young he completed his PhD in Organizational Behavior at Texas A&M University and enjoyed a career as an awardwinning professor and scholar. Todd has delivered over 1,000 speeches and created a body of educational work enjoyed by over 30,000,000 professionals around the globe. His recent clients include Microsoft, ExxonMobil, Pepsi, Boeing, Google, Caterpillar, IBM, Zoom, and hundreds more.

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/drdewett

Instagram: instagram.com/drdewett

Website: drdewett.com

YouTube: youtube.com/c/DrToddDewett

Facebook: facebook.com/DrToddDewett

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian does special zoom events and shares hacks and tips exclusively for his email subscribers. Topics like “13 alternatives to checking social media on your phone” or “2 email rules which will cut your email inbox in half” and more. Sign up to start receiving the tips from these exclusive events!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. I teach overworked project managers how to level-up their life balance and pump up their personal practical productivity skills through my Productivity Gladiator training system. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Brian Nelson-Palmer

I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. And on this show, I talk about life balance and personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, we're learning to tell better stories. Stories are the key to getting what you want in life because it helps people get on board. They relate to stories. So today we're gonna jump into that a little bit. And with me on the show today is Dr. Todd Dewett. And he's the author, educator and coach in leadership. So Dr. Todd, welcome to the show.

Dr Todd Dewett

Hey, thanks for having me. I'm just looking at you like, hey, brother from another mother. I love it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Right? We go to the same barber. If you're not, if you don't see the video or if you want to check out the video, we go to the same barber. I, Dr. Todd, I've been following him for a little while. And I noticed he, he always had that very streamlined look. So I tried to follow in his footsteps and be able to, you know, jump in the pool, Olympic swimmers. We don't need the caps anymore. We got this. So what's now we're going to talk about stories today. So Dr. Todd, actually, should I call you Dr. Todd? Todd, if people see you on the street, what do you prefer?

Dr Todd Dewett

I appreciate you asking. That's kind. No, Todd's just fine.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Got it. So Todd, what's your relation to stories in our episode or topic today?

Dr Todd Dewett

Man, I'll give you the short version. You can pull out as much as you want and make it as long as you want. But humans in general, long before, became part of some of our professions. We are drawn to stories because of the word you used a few minutes ago, which was relate. And I'm gonna talk about that a lot today. I was a kid who loved middle school and high school English class because there were stories involved. In fact, I didn't know I had a great voice for anything I do back then. People liked the sound of it. I know that now, but I didn't. But my teachers would ask me to read stories sometimes in front of the class because, well, it just sounded pretty good.

So I fell in love with sharing stories back in junior high school. And that kind of stuck with me. And then as a person who fell in love with professional life and leadership as an expert focus. kind of communication and relationships dominates what I've been thinking about, talking about, writing about for years. And one fascinating part of that, ever since that thing I fell in love with back in the day, is stories. It's one thing to be very clear about what you're trying to share with your sentences. Good for you, most people struggle with that. And I love talking about that too. But it's another level of amazingness, frankly, to take the same idea, and instead of just using a normal well-structured sentence, clearly enunciated words to put it into a format that shakes people emotionally, not just logically. And that's exactly what a story does.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Nice. Oh my gosh. I have questions about this. So I before I want to jump into the topic, but the one thing I like to ask, because there's, there's a lot of folks out there who talk about being, you know, stories and storytellers, there's whole storytelling organizations. And those, so what would you unique, in general or with stories specifically or both. What, what would you say makes you a little different, Todd, from everybody else? What makes you unique?

Dr Todd Dewett

Well, if you're going to force me to answer that and brag, okay. I have to be humble at the same time. I'm bragging. You'll know what I mean in just a second. So I have an ability to deliver that is not only clear, but somehow for many listeners is emotionally resonant. It grabs people, makes them go, you know, I didn't know I found that topic interesting, but Todd reads the phone book and I go, that's a really interesting phone book that's kind of happened in my career and it's very unexpected. So on the one hand.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

brag a little bit. I want you to brag a little bit.

Dr Todd Dewett

I'm great at structuring the message itself that has nothing to do with delivery. And then on top of that, as if that wasn't enough for most people, I somehow figure out how to authentically and quite passionately share that message. And then on top of that, you can use certain tools. One of them that we're talking about today is a story. So it all comes together. I was born with this stuff and I figured out how to use it professionally. That makes me the luckiest person you're gonna talk to for quite some time.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. All right. Well, then I can't wait to hear what you have to say. So let's talk about it. So we're talking about telling better stories and there's different facets of life we'll talk about. But let's start with the basics, which is, okay, what are the basic components to a good story?

Dr Todd Dewett

You know, I used to just dive in and tell anecdotal comments when it felt appropriate at a cocktail party or in class. This is my third career. I used to be in consulting, Anderson Ernst & Young. I was a professor for a long time where I really got into storytelling as one vehicle to try and reach students. And now I use them professionally as a speaker, course maker, keynote guy. What makes them work?

Well, the traditional three act play is the best simple answer to that question. You gotta have characters. protagonist and others at a minimum. They've got to be in a situation that kind of grabs your attention. That's act one, what's going on here? Oh, they're in that situation, that dilemma, that type of potential looming conflict. That's act one.

Act two, there's an escalation of some sort that really does take people to a new level of, oh my gosh, that's amazing, what's going to happen?

Act three is the obvious resolution of this thing so we can bring it to a close. That's an age old, very simple take on how to do a play and people use it to structure stories very effectively and you know I've had multiple courses over time on related presentations and stories and such and that is useful and I like it because it's simple, people are busy and if you want to teach them something start simple just remind them You've got to have some relatable protagonist or if the protagonist himself hit herself isn't relatable a Situation they face that is relatable by the average person So on the one hand I got a PhD and I published a bunch of stuff on the other hand the way I deliver is to talk in practical terms using situations and examples that normal, good, hardworking people at the office or wherever they work can relate to. I'm coming back to the word you started with, even though you didn't know you were setting me up so well. The word is how much can you relate? That really is the differentiating factor.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

late. Okay. So three act play. And one more time, the three acts are the

Dr Todd Dewett

Introduction to the characters in some interesting situation they're a part of that could be difficult or interesting, but it's not clear. Act two, an escalation. Some horrible, difficult thing has happened and we've got to deal with it or else. Act three, we finally, thankfully, find resolution to this issue and bring it to a close.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Well then what's the secret sauce? What differentiates a good story from a great story? And it seems like it might be the difference between how high we go and how much we resolve or what are your thoughts?

Dr Todd Dewett

I think you're on the way to answer it really well there. So I would say it's a culmination of a few different factors. Some people get part of this equation, some get all of it. If you want to name a great storyteller, I guarantee you they've got all this. They've got the three act thing. They understand structure. That's the word that we're referring to there. And then they've got the actual message they craft that is relatable to use the other thing we were talking about. And then the third part is, can they be, and this is big, ready?

I like to talk about authenticity, but I'll say it differently just to be really clear. Believably passionate, believably emotional. If you can do that, it's amazing how much more you can bring a person in to feel a story, not just think about a story or understand and relate to a story, but care about it. That's what emotions do for you as a listener to a great story. So in my case, I'm very lucky and I know it, but I'm good at understanding that structure, building something that people can relate to.

For example, I talk about my mistakes and screw ups over time as a part of learning and growth. Why? Because humans screw up all the time and everyone listening can relate. And then three, as you can see, cause I can't hide it very well, I'm animated and I mean it. And I also, this is not fair. This is an advanced comment for anyone listening. I'm a professional communicator at some level, and I have a great appreciation for little tiny details.

Most people who are listening never think about because they don't have to, they've never been asked to. But just talking to you right now, I'm using elevation of pace, the reduction of pace, the increase in tone, the decrease in, I enunciate words, I pause over here, I get animated with my hand over here and my face over here. These are all different variables in the communication equation. And if you know how to balance them and move them around any message, regardless of how relatable or quality it is, will stick better.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

You know, as you're describing this, I'm thinking about. What is the balance between this and talking too much? I mean, it's possible if you tell really long stories, I've been at parties with people who tell stories that just seem to go on and on. And so that I find my excuse to like, I'm going to go get a drink. I got it. You know, I'll be back. I like, oh, that person's getting started. I'm going to exit. So like, how do you find or describe that balance with not overdoing it.

Dr Todd Dewett

It's a great point. It's an interesting point. And, uh, I hope I've never been that person, but boy, like you, I have seen that person. And the short answer is that one part of the communication skillset, I would wish everyone could have is the ability to read an audience, to look at someone individually or a group of three or 20 or a thousand, whatever it might be. And to see their reaction, to watch and maybe even feel their reaction.

Because what Bob, the guy at the cocktail party you were referring to, uh doesn't have is any sensitivity and awareness to how others are reacting because I guarantee you it's not just you as everyone else listening to the beginning of that clearly long drawn on story who are showing evidence of disinterest or worry that he just didn't see and that can take the form of rolling eyes looking away distancing yourself getting up and leaving bowing your head turning this way anything other than wrapped attention, which is about moving in more. So that's there. Clear data every time we open our mouths, but most of us just haven't been trained to look for it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Okay, so read the room clearly that there's a, this is a thing and that's certainly you'll get over time. I guess I'm curious also about, well, let's do some actual examples. Cause like you said, people relate to examples, right? So one thing that I would love to say is like, gosh, you know, on the way here, I almost got in an accident, somebody pulled out in front of me. Like, oh, Brian, you're like, I walk up to the party, I walk up to the conversation and that's what just happened. And they're like, “Brian, you're really stressed. What happened?” “Man, somebody almost hit me on the way here.” If that's the scenario, all right, Todd, how do I make that a better story that doesn't go on for five minutes? What are your thoughts?

Dr Todd Dewett

Well, it's a great story. I mean, it's a great thing to share because most of us can relate to that. And if it's not in a car in some other situation where we felt in jeopardy for sure. So what you did in that little anecdote was to start with the punchline, which actually comes in act three of our three act structure. You started with the end. That's not horrifying, but it's not the best. Because if you want to tell a story, what you might have said to them is, you ever been on the way to a party you're really looking forward to, and you wondered if you're gonna live long enough to get there? That's a question that makes them go, “what happened to this person?” Now you've given away nothing, but drawn them in completely to want to know the answer to the mystery question you've just asked. That would be one example.

And then you would say, “I'm on interstate five. I'm doing my best to get here. I was actually on route to be five minutes early, very excited, punctual me. Then I saw the pickup truck.”

Then you pause and you go, “I had no idea a Pickup truck could move across three lanes of traffic in under half a second.” Now everyone's like, what? And you're like, correct. I almost took it right in the front left tire. But thankfully my amazing wife, Brenda, did the brake job that we needed badly last week. So I slammed on the brakes and I missed this. Guys, I'm not kidding. Three inches, maybe? My head rammed forward. I thought I would hit the windshield, but I didn't. The truck last second saw that they were about to hit me couldn't adjust I could look at the guy's face I'm not making this up and he looked at me like I'm sorry. And then he didn't hit me I inches separated us he got over slowed down to my window just look at me again and said I'm sorry and I was too scared to react I just went forward and came to the party and now you know my story so that was an I made that up on the fly obviously but that's act one act to act 3 it takes what you shared it blows it into 30 seconds max but elevates the emotion to something people can actually go, that was interesting. What else happened to you today, Brian?

Brian Nelson-Palmer

I'm fascinated with this because, I'm also a speaker and I speak, I've just given a workshop yesterday and it's, there is a fundamental fight internally between answering someone's question efficiently and then telling a story and making it interesting too. And so is there, would you, do you tend to stick to like, always tell stories or is it saving it all? If somebody has a direct question, you get a direct answer. But if it's general conversation, like how do you decide? When is it a good time? When should it become a story? And when should I just answer the question? You have any thoughts on that?

Dr Todd Dewett

That's a great question, a really, really great question. So I have the pleasure professionally of going against the grain intentionally in a few different ways. My first love as a scholar before I became a practitioner was creativity, innovation and change related topics. And so I'm always talking about how we're doing things wrong. Yesterday's not good enough, we have to invent tomorrow. Let's take some risks, take some change, so on. And it makes people nervous and it ruffles feathers and that's just fine. A story to your point absolutely goes against the rules of communication at work. You're supposed to be curt to the point and efficient effectiveness hopefully based on word choice and clarity, pronunciation, but efficiency above all else. That's a business mantra. You're absolutely correct. The answer is that stories are special and should not be used all the time. It's just like, think of your favorite food. If you really love pizza, whatever. If you eat pizza all the time and you become known as the pizza guy, first of all, you're gonna be redundant in the eyes of others. Number two, you're gonna lose some, maybe a lot of your love of pizza, stories are the same. They're so beautiful like pizza, man. You gotta use that rare, not every day. So the answer is different for everyone, depending on their vocation and their personality, but less is more. Big moments with the group, once a quarter, at that conference, once or twice a year. It's not supposed to be daily. People look at you like, uh-oh, here comes Brian's story for the day. You know, he's not happy if he doesn't tell at least one or two my personal opinion based on the need for efficiency brief expectations we all have in professional settings is that it should be, whatever this means for you, rare, not common. So if you know what you're doing and it's a little less common instead of more common, boom, it tends to have impact because they're not used to it.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah, totally. And as I'm drawing back, the other thing I think about is like efficiency of we don't have time for this situations. A lot of times you're in those situations, especially professionally. I want to get to that in a second. But as I'm thinking about the way you broke it down, like it was really helpful what you said about I broke straight to the punch line. So instead you have a setup, you have some kind of lead up and then you have the punch line. And realistically, you could do that in like three sentences instead of one. So you don't have to take five minutes or 10 minutes to tell a good story, as long as you've got the setup, the event that makes them want to know what happened and then the punchline or the resolution. Is that my track in?

Dr Todd Dewett

That's correct. That's absolutely correct. And it's important to state because as a guy who does a lot of professional speaking, most of my stories are eight to 10 minutes. That sounds really long to a lot of people. It doesn't sound long to me, but in a cocktail party setting, in a Monday morning meeting setting, absolutely it should be three, four, five sentences. Max, if you can do it. Now, if you have the time, if there's interest and it presents an opportunity to address a certain topic, to build certain rapport, et cetera.

You see utility beyond just being the person with the microphone. Okay, elaborate some more and take a minute or three if that is kosher. But in general, you're correct. Error on less is more. Gain comfort with that because doing what we're talking about is a skill like any other skill in the world of communication. And once you get comfortable with it, okay, then you can prod it a little bit, expand it when it feels appropriate a little bit more.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah. Well, let's, you know, you talked about the Monday morning meeting. I w I'm curious. Let's let's talk about storytelling because I'm fascinated. You can really tell stories. People relate to stories and it helps you get what you want. Really? Like this is a, this is one of the many ways of being very persuasive is people relate to you and telling stories. So in that Monday morning meeting, or let's talk about the sort of the professional setting. What is that? Does the advice change at all when you're telling a story to try to achieve a certain end result, or what's the twist? What's the secret sauce there that's a little different?

Dr Todd Dewett

Well, it's an interesting point. You can argue that stories work on average a little better when there's a purpose of driving it as opposed to something fun to share like you did about the car wreck at the party. So the near car wreck at the party. So when you are trying to set them up for a bigger conversation, for example, about a big change coming down the pike, or when you introduce a simple fact that came down from leadership that you need to share with the team and you know it's not gonna hit their ears and make them happy immediately, it might be instead of explaining lots of numbers or lots of rationale from senior leaders, maybe that is a great time to share a five minute, just to pick a number, story that makes this relatable. Not an abstract thing someone foisted upon you, but a shared situation we're all involved with together that we can probably deal with effectively. Let's go.

I'm thinking many times people like to get really clear about what this difficult thing is they want to share and then they want to get very boring Immediately and explain why it's happening with all kinds of numbers and data relevant useful stuff But boring and completely the opposite of inspiration. That's why a short story can make a ton of sense to look We've tried this before and it's failed There's great reason to believe that this is gonna work this time. But even before I described why it's gonna work

You need to understand what our top three clients told my boss's boss about how excited they were we were gonna undertake this because of how it would change the product that we're delivering to them. We're about to make a whole lot of people really happy, which is gonna give us a ridiculous step forward in job security we didn't have yesterday. That's why I'm actually excited to talk about this change with you. Completely different. I didn't do the three act play, but at least I took it out of our group and started talking about something big and purpose-filled that they would care about back to relevance. Why do they care? In this case that I just ad-libbed, it was because they're going to get more job security and make some people happy.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

You know, as I'm listening to you, the phrase that came to me is, “Oh, I get it. Anytime you're going to tell them the why it should be a story.” And that's like the, so why it worked. Why are we making this change? Why are we doing this thing? Instead of just telling them because our data sucks, you could set up the three act play it would be because, uh, you know, the other day, uh, somebody was working on something and an auditor found that.

We didn't report the right data, and that went all the way up to such and such. And so as a result, now we found a resolution for that, which is that this changes. So it's like three sentences instead of one. If you're put on the spot when somebody says why, that might be a really good time for a story. I would.

Dr Todd Dewett

So I'm going to make this easy for you, for me, for anyone that might listen. This is very difficult in three sentences to make the most brutal case possible to do a good reflection of the three act play. Most people call what I just did making up something and what you just did making up something, they call it an anecdote. And I got to tell you, if you don't have time or great skill with a bigger, longer three act story, that's okay. A purpose aligned anecdote, which is what you just shared and what I just made up a minute ago. That is to say, two, three, four sentences that explains something bigger and important for all of us than actually the decision and how it's gonna hit us. The purpose part of why we're doing this is absolutely a mini story, if you will, an anecdote that gets them to start caring more for sure.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

And it followed still the three act play premise for an anecdote versus a story. Just the amount of detail and level of buildup. Like it's the three sentences versus the five minutes kind of thing.

Dr Todd Dewett

If you're, I mean, if you're skilled, you could do that. Most people, uh, I don't want to encourage most pros to go to their Monday meeting and think, okay, I want to talk about this. I think I know what I want to say, but what's, what is one act two? I don't want to confuse them. That's maybe for the, uh, once a quarter at the conference, bigger story. But if you can say something, let me just keep it simple.

Purpose driven purpose aligned a little emotional. I'll tell you why I'm kind of okay If not excited about this difficult decision, they just shared with me that I just shared with you and it's because of Suzanne Do you guys remember Suzanne? She was a client of ours that had that problem last year that we could not resolve and her life looked kind of wrecked as A result what we're about to do. Yeah, it's gonna take a lot of hard work It's gonna make life better for Suzanne and a lot of people like her who depend on what we do.

Now that is not a three act story I just gave you. It's a simple anecdote with some emotion that is purpose aligned. We're gonna help someone like Suzanne and that's a beautiful mini story.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Does the story change much when you're in a management role versus just as an employee? Like as an employee, you might be asking for resources or asking for buy-in from somebody. You need something from someone above. As a manager, does the scenario change much if you're talking up or if you're talking down or is the premise kind of the same?

Dr Todd Dewett

I think if you're talking up in general, using the example of some sort like I did with Suzanne, an external person we all care about is a universal simple purpose driven approach. If you're a manager talking down, I hate the way that sounds, but talking to your team, to your org, all the people in the hierarchy, believe you, beneath you, that is a time to do one of a couple things. One is to talk about yourself. For example, I told you when we were just BS-ing a few minutes ago about how I love to talk about big catastrophes in my life and phrase them as learning moments and what they taught me, because other people need to do the same with the mistakes in their life.

So there's two things.

One, make it more about you and not in a flattering way if you're speaking down, because that makes you an authentic, more relatable person instead of a person holding a spot in a hierarchy above them, which stresses people out. That makes you more relatable and human to them.

And then the other thing is whatever the topic might be, find a way to talk about it in a way that is, to use that word once again, relatable. If you do both of those things, that would be a great strategy for most leaders when they're talking down in the hierarchy.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

And same premise or does that I guess. So that's when you're talking down as opposed to when you're talking up. If you suddenly are in a conference room or you're put on the spot in a meeting and you've got the person two, three levels above you, is it, I mean, the structure of the story is still the same. Is it not as much about you and now it's about a third party relatable or what are your thoughts?

Dr Todd Dewett

A couple thoughts, one is it's about that external thing we can all relate to. I keep talking about Suzanne, who I made up two minutes ago, but here's another one. Speaking 101, presentation 101 is about know your audience. And when you're dealing with someone two levels above you, you should recognize they care about different things, think differently than you every day, different agendas, different goals, different responsibilities. It's not good or bad, it just is. So if you can say to yourself before you engage them, if you know they're gonna be at that meeting, what's their world like? How would I spin my Suzanne story, or whatever it is you're going to share, in a way that appeals to Paul? Paul, who sits up in an office in corporate and crunches numbers all day, and that's his world. Is there a way I can spin that? Maybe, I don't know the answer to that in this made up scenario, but know who they are, what appeals to them, their agenda, their ego. That sounds a little personal, but it's useful if you're thinking about know your audience. So maybe Suzanne's not right at all for Paul. Maybe the answer is we all know that innovation has been amazing in this firm for the last five years. We also know that we have paid for it. Expenses are out of control. The market's loving what we're producing, but our profit and loss is looking very, very difficult. You want to please Paul, maybe you should talk about how this thing we're about to engage in, in fact, should be instrumental in reining in costs. Now I've taken one thing I know that is important to that audience member and tried to make it central to my anecdote or story that I'm sharing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Got it. So relatable. Yep, relatable to the audience makes perfect sense. And that's a really good point about if you're telling stories down something negative, it's good to be self-deprecating, I guess, to kind of bring it. You're not perfect either. Bring yourself down a notch or two is not a bad thing, making you more human. I'm picking up what you're putting down, Todd. That makes sense.

Can we shift gears away from professional then and let's talk personal for a second? Because I'm thinking specifically about stories with friends or really stories in a relationship with your significant other, with your partner like that. It seems like they, like let's talk about partner. Partner would be tired of your stories. I mean, like they hear your stories all the time.”Why Todd, does everything have to be a story?” Like what is it? Like, do you have any thoughts on that? I know you can relate to it. See? Just cut to the point already Todd. Dang it. Are you like-

Dr Todd Dewett

I know you're a professional speaker, but come on! You're reminding me there's a fa- I won't say all of it here, but there's a famous bit by comedian Chris Rock about that reality in relationships you've just mentioned, whereby at some point you've both heard all the stories the other has to say and when their partner says to you, uh, and I tell you about the time and Chris Rock like, yeah, you told me about the time!

So I wrote a book about it, it's called The 10 Delusions, my relationship's 101 type of book, and you gotta address issues like this. Doesn't matter how much you love the person, let's assume it's real love, you can't always assume that. Sometimes it's just a chemical love and you don't know the difference between the two until the chemical cloud goes away. That's what the science suggests. Either way, real love or chemical love, at some point you're gonna be face to face with a partner that you are stuck with in some regard, and you have to assess how you feel about and communicate with. And even if you're great at it, eventually, to your point, you will share all that you've experienced at some level.

And then what do you do? Well, stop rehashing and start asking more. Here's my experience with my wife. When you believe what I just said, stop trying to always do that thing you go to as a communication mode, because you like it, because you're good at it, because people tell you you're good at it, and ask more of them in that regard. When they didn't come at you with it and you're asking them because you're showing interest, they'll remember things that they haven't told you yet, and later they're gonna ask of you.

About a time when that they've never asked before and you're gonna have new material I guarantee you as funny as Chris Rock is there's more material assuming you're over the age of 20 There's more material in your brain and in your partner's brain to happily Share through an interesting conversation. We've just forgotten and not accessed so much. That's what the cog psychologists would tell us

There's so much there. But if you slow down and intentionally shake up your routine, which is one example of that is me intentionally not telling stories next Tuesday, after I get off and we have three hours together, me and my partner, and ask of them some things about specific topics I haven't heard about from them for a long time. You know, I was thinking about your mom the other day and how funny she is every time we go to the lake. She's gonna think of some stuff. She's never thought about before about her mom because you prompted her honestly like that. And she's gonna say some things you've never heard before. And after you do that just once or twice, she's gonna start doing it to you and new conversations, believe it or not, become a little easier. And that's a beautiful thing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

So true prompt them for the stories and I'm thinking about, you know, it's funny. The contrast for me personally, is I grew up in a household where my dad was military. And so when it's really funny, even to this day, when I call home, I like dad wants the briefing. He wants the download. What's happening. Here's the bullets. Dad doesn't want the stories.

Dr Todd Dewett

Hahaha!

Brian Nelson-Palmer (29:35.626)

He doesn't care about the characters and the emotions. And if he hears this, he'll probably disagree with me. But realistically, my impression is, dad just wants the bullets. Punchline, punchline, punchline. But mom wants the stories. And so it's just really, I'm like, my mind is blown right now just thinking about, oh my gosh, communication with my family and who's interested in the stories versus the punchlines and their style.

Dr Todd Dewett

Yeah, it's tough. That's an amazing insight, to be honest with you. Kudos to you, big thinker here, because most people don't get that far. When you're talking to anyone other than one person, now you have different styles, different communication needs, different preferences, and any one that you choose will fit one way and fit the other, maybe not as good or maybe better. The point is differently, which makes talking to a group a lot more difficult. I can promise you this, speaking as a pro, I've done over a thousand gigs, I've been in front of a lot of people.

There is no audience whereby you get 100% fully everyone with you. I love that it doesn't happen. Small group at a cocktail party. Same thing. Rarely does everyone go, man, that's just, I'm so glad I spent some time with Todd over there. No, it's just, it's not the way it happens, which is why you err on less is more. Stories are less common instead of extremely common and the length should be a little shorter than instead of a little longer because you never know exactly how people are responding to that. And I told you, you can read that, but the truth is if you actually commit to a story, I mean, you want to share honest emotion about this thing that just happened when the truck almost ran me off the road and I was sweating and whatever you might say, it's hard doing that. And at the same time, reading the reactions of the people. Now I can do that, but I've been doing this for a better part of 30 years. Most people can't do that. But if you're smart,

You'll pause because you got to breathe even when you're passionate. And when you take that breath, this is a great piece of advice for anyone. You take that breath, just look at your partner you're talking to and look, do they seem comfortable and waiting for that next word or do they seem like they are confused, uninterested and really needing to go somewhere else that should be fairly clear to you and only takes a second to see it, but you got to give yourself that second.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

What I'd love to hear is an example of, and you're probably got like 10 of these in your back pocket as far as I can, I want to put you on the spot and tell us a story or tell, I mean, what's the, what's a personal one about like, what's the sort, tell us what is the purpose like all right, let's say we're in a presentation situation. Here is the bullet of the point I want to make. And here is the story that I'm going to tell and kind of narrate for us the parts of the story while you're at it so we can see under the hood, if that makes sense.

Dr Todd Dewett

I can try and do that. I'll be selfish, Brian. So this is my latest book. It's called Dancing with Monsters. It is a business fable. It's actually a very short story about a group of misfit monsters who are having some issues. And one of them has to step up and figure out how to be a leader. It's a lot of fun. It's very silly, yet very useful. I'm very excited about it. Anyhow, there is in the keynote that I've recently started using for this new book. There's several new stories, seven actually.

It's kind of five stories in the hour, but two of them are actually two stories each, so it's actually seven stories. One of them, there's a part of the speech that's about a rule that I wrote in the book. The rule is candor, not just kindness.

When I think about leadership rules, Leadership 101, that's one of them I love to offer. Candor, not just kindness. They're both very important. They go together like chocolate and peanut butter. Don't just talk about one, talk about both of them.

Now how do I describe that on stage? I don't lecture like I just did for 10 seconds to you. I do that on stage, but 10 seconds is it. And then I go into story format. The first part of that story, the first of the two part story, I'm not gonna share with you. It's about a time I went to a large corporation and learned how some HR people were wasting their time talking about a tire issues and women's footwear and what was appropriate things that are not going to make any company great ever and I tell that funny story because it's an example of me giving an audience some candor they need to hear and then the flip side of that I tell the audience of course it's not just about you giving candor when needed if you care about improving yourself oh it's about you being open to that candor as well because not everyone's brave enough to give it to you straight sometimes you've got to empower them just a little bit and it might hurt but you don't grow unless you get a little uncomfortable and hear some unfiltered observations about what you're doing as a pro.

I've been through that a few times. Let me give you one example. This is, and this is the story. I say, you know, I love speaking. I'm pretty good at it, but the truth is I'm not where I wanna be yet. Here's the proof. I was on stage, this is 12, 13 years ago, bunch of suits in the audience, and I am telling stories and all the passion, all the movement, it's going really well. I'm happy, but something strange happened while I was on stage. I saw a person in the audience that I recognized as a professional speaker and author like myself, I knew them. They were two or three steps ahead of me, clearly in the career. And I was intrigued by their presence. I wanted to talk to them because I knew they looked at communicators like I do, surgically, variable, why variable, not just overall as a reaction that most people have. And so I finished the speech, went well, people clapped, that's great, but I was really quickly more so than normal. Off that stage, I wanted to find this guy back at the auditorium and I got him.

People are walking by us, they're getting out, but I really wanted to talk to him. So I grabbed him and he said, hi. I shook his hand and I said, I know you are. I saw your last book. It's good stuff. I'm guessing you have them as a client sometimes here too. And he said, yeah, yeah. I said, great. I didn't know I was gonna see you. I gotta ask you, because I know that you got an amazing pair of eyes when you look at a speech. I'd love to hear some feedback on what you saw today. That would be grateful. What do you think? And he said, well I liked that. A lot of emotion, clear delivery. I see good things for you. That was a really nice speech. I could tell he was doing what people, especially strangers you don't know well, always do when you ask for feedback. They're super nice and nowhere near as critical as you might have dreamed they could be. And so I said to him, because we didn't have time and he's busy and I wanted to respect that, I said, you're being very kind. Thanks, but help me out here because I know I'm just learning. I'm mid-career, not late career.

What did you see I could do differently? I mean, if you could tell me one thing that I could do differently to have a bigger impact, what might that thing be? I asked something very specific. This is me talking to you like you asked me to. I asked something very specific, not general, very specific. And then did something amazing that's hard for people to do. Shut up and watched him and allowed that person some space to try and react to this very specific question that calls for critical feedback, not just the kindness he started with.

And he said to me, okay, Todd. I think I know one answer to your question. And he took a small step backwards, which is very funny, because I know as a organizational behavior guy, I know that when people do that, they're feeling uncomfortable. What we do when we're feeling uncomfortable is we tilt one way or the other or step away because the distance somehow feels a little more reassuring. And I saw him do that and I knew he was getting nervous. I knew this was gonna be good feedback. And he goes, well, I'll tell you what, love what you're doing, but here's the truth. You're a big, loud guy. And I said Yes, I'm a big, loud guy. He goes, well, you never stand still. On stage, no, you move around a lot. And I said, yep, I move around a lot. And he goes, well, you wear glasses. And I'm thinking to myself, this is the worst feedback I have ever received. I sat there and I said, yes. He goes, well, and backed up just a little more. And I knew he was about to drop whatever it was he had to drop on me.

He looked at me and he goes, look, you're a big, loud guy. And you move around a lot and you wear glasses. And when they move, because they move, you're passionate and you're up there, you're sweating, they move well, most people just use their index finger and they adjust them. Um, and I heard that and I went, Oh, no, no way. And he goes, Todd, I'm very sorry to tell you this. He looked around and make sure we were alone. And he said, you gave your audience the bird about 50 times today. This is true story. I'm not making this up. I did. We're almost alone now. So my embarrassment was like this instead of this. And I said, uh, really? He said, yeah. I said, uh, do you think anyone noticed? He looked at me and said, oh yeah, people noticed. But here's the good news. They didn't care. You know why? They loved the message you're sharing. They loved the way you shared that message. They noticed it, let it go, didn't care, stayed engaged with you. That's how good I think you are. And I said, that's extremely kind. Thank you. And he goes, no, listen carefully. You need to stop giving your audience the bird. The end of the story is very simple. I say to the audience, look, if a overtrained professional communicator is running around stages on planet Earth doing something unproductive that he's unaware of, how much more likely is it that you and how might you address that situation? Of course, the answer is feedback and you better hope it's candid and that you find someone brave enough to give it to you. So that's an example of a relatively short story that's practical for the audience. It's about me making fun of myself. It's actually true it happened or a version of it that's very similar to the story actually happened. I was doing this and I got busted and yet it's practical. People can relate to that, can't they?

Brian Nelson-Palmer

So There's a setup. There's characters or something. There's an event that kind of makes them. Okay. What's gonna happen? Like a moment where okay, what is this? That's got to be a ride to get to the resolution.

Dr Todd Dewett

So stage one is kind of I'm on stage having fun, but I noticed something different. I wonder where that's going to go. Cause I've never seen another pro sitting in my audience. And act two is I'm having fun with this person. And after they are nice, they actually show me every indication in their non-verbals that they're about to drop a bomb on me. But what is it act three, the explosion and the resolution, which is him going, now you are great, but you got to stop doing this. And me processing that feedback. So it loosely speaking, it follows the three act format and that's useful when you're trying to think about how to deliver these.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Man, that is very cool. Man, at what level is going up to the to the to the hanger, the cliff hanger and then the resolution. It seems like there's for many people like me who jumped right to the punch line in my example in the beginning, it's not a very big ride. But it's also possible that it's going to be too much. Do you have any like, are there any cues or what are your thoughts on how much is too much? here do you rein it in? Any thoughts on that?

Dr Todd Dewett

Yeah, I have difficult answers for that for sure, but you like honesty, I can sense that. So I'm gonna very much shoot straight with you. There's no perfect answer to that. First of all, are there cues? Yeah, you cross the norms that are expected for any given group. They will show you it by turning away, by rolling their eyes, by talking to them. Anything other than listening on the edge of their seat to what you're talking about. So yeah, there are always cues, always cues, but here's the hard part of the answer.

What's comfortable and what you're good at, how much you can emote and how far you can stretch towards a climax or embellish a little bit, which I always do a little bit to really add some passion and emotion is up to you. It's different for every one of us. I happen to be comfortable with passion in my hands and my face. That's normal for me. Others would look like they're faking it if they tried to act like me. And believe me, you don't have to be crazy passionate the way I tend to be. There's plenty of quieter, introverted speakers who find a way and there's different vehicles for that from word choices to pauses to pictures, many different ways they can find to be very impactful. But the short answer is every audience is different. I said I've done 1000 gigs, I can be honest with you, there's 20 30 times that sounds like a lot to you probably, I don't know. I've bombed. That's rare. Statistically, I usually kill. One out of five to ten gets a standing, oh that's great, but the truth is every audience is different.

True story to answer your question, I was at a gig, how many years ago, four, I don't remember, and I was doing what I normally do for a speech that was my number one speech, I'm trying to transition a little into this thing, this book, but the truth is Show Your Ink has been what I've been writing for a long time, and I was on stage and I did my Show Your Ink keynote and it was killing!

Three days later, next stage, next client. I'm excited. I've been on a roll for two or three clients. I've been doing this material for a while. I know how to work an audience. Let's go. I do the same thing that just killed over there. And it bombed. Now you never know exactly why it bombed. In this anecdote I'm sharing, I can tell you why it bombed because they told me after it was over. I had about 20 minutes left to go and I hit some heavy material that's uplifting and educational, but it's about my dad and some things he learned during his cancer journey, which ended in cancer winning. And I love that story and audiences love it and they come up and tell me so, that's how I know. And I did it like I always do it, right on the heels of the success and the meeting planner run up to the stage, I've never seen this before, ran up to the stage. So I'm three or four feet higher in this person and they go, time, they're doing this thing. I was like, really, I'm sorry. I said, I'm sorry, out loud, which is not good because I'm never late. I kind of understand timing. I'm good at this stage of career and I thought to myself Wow I really botched something. Okay. Okay I'm gonna skip that story and make that one shorter and get done in the next 10 minutes or so that they wanted me to Wrap up and I went ahead and I started to truncate a story and the same guy runs up. Oh five minutes later I'm sorry. It's okay. It's okay. You're fine. Just go ahead and finish the speech as you would and I'm thinking to myself "What is going on here?" and I acted and I'm really good at acting. It's part of what we do as professional speakers.

I acted like it was all cool, of course, and I finished what I do and I got some nice applause, maybe not the biggest ever, but it was really genuine and nice. And then I found out what happened from the meeting planner and from an executive who came over to talk to me. There was one key executive, the number two person in this firm, whose partner was going through a very, very difficult, unwinnable cancer related situation. And there I am talking in some detail with a lot of passion about cancer. And they couldn't take it and they broke down and the CEO is sitting next to them and CEO was upset that I would be so stupid to get on stage and talk about such a triggering topic in front of people who can relate in very difficult ways. And they came to pull me off stage because the CEO said to do that, and then said, don't do that, because they realized that they were acting too rashly. So my point to you is every audience is different. Home run with them three days later, 100% same speech, almost got yanked off stage literally. If you don't like the reality that some people are gonna love you and some aren't gonna get you, some aren't gonna like you, then maybe you should just give up communicating completely because it can be challenging. Ha ha ha.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

God, so true. And, you know, Todd, I caught myself as you're telling your stories very much relating to I because I was raised in a military household, it was all about the punch lines. Like that was the majority of my childhood. And so I have been very good at being extremely efficient. I'm a project manager professionally as well. I've had several careers besides public speaking myself. And I am very good at punch lines, efficient, effective communication. And what I've found is that, man, you totally get sucked into some of your setups and the stories you shared today. I guess, well, we're at the point where we're wrapping up this episode, too. So what I can say is I always like to end with here's what I love. Here's what I love, Todd, that you all throughout this episode, you have not only broken down the part about the stories, but then you've also in all of your examples of stories, you've shown it over and over and over again. There are characters. There is an event that happens, something that, you know, is some kind of lead up. There's some kind of moment where you want to know what happens. And those are the points. I'm sure if I go back and watch this recording or if you do, you'll probably see like, I think I caught myself like I'm leaning in. I'm interested. Like, I know like it was, it was one of those things. So I love, I love the stories that you shared, but also I love, I love being able to now reflect back and go, oh, that's how. So Todd, thanks for doing what you do, man. This was very cool.

Dr Todd Dewett

it's my pleasure. And you know, we were talking for a few minutes before we even got started in this in this chat. And I got to tell you, I hope you rewatch this, I usually rewatch them as well and see something I love something I didn't love. And if you're interested, I do have a new course called storytelling for leaders coming out on LinkedIn. That'll break this down and even more detail if you want to go back and look at what you've been doing on stage. I've said this to many pros. If you want to go back and look at what you've been doing on stage with a little more of a fine tooth comb to re-examine it, you should watch that course and then you'll rethink what you're doing and go, I just know three ways I can go make that a lot better.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. And you know, I'm a, I want to yes, and" you there. Yes. Go, go take Todd's course for sure, because that that's a thing. And if you have a recording of yourself these days, everybody's on teams or zoom and these things are recorded. So whether you want to or not, like a lot of people are in this situation where they think professionally, they just don't give speeches that are video recorded or whatever, but you know, football teams watch game tape over and over and over again to make those better. And so what I'm imagining is the situation where you take Todd's course and then watch your own game tape because you've got it now, whether you want it or not, you can watch yourself in a meeting. You can watch yourself in some of the zooms, whatever that scenario is, and take what you've learned from Todd with this and this episode and then watch yourself and see how you do it. Do you do the three parts to the story when you're going to tell a story or do you shortchange one? And how does that, because that for me personally, that's been in my speaking journey as well. Game tape has been amazing because you are your own best critic. Everybody else is going to be nice. Like Todd, you told that story about the guy who, you know, he wanted to be nice to you. Everybody, if you ask, "how was it?" They will never tell you the truth right off the bat. Right. That never happens. Like sometimes I really wish they would if it was horrible, but they won't. Everybody will tell you, your coworkers, your anybody who knows you, will always say that was great. So the two places you can get honest feedback are from people that don't know you and will never know you. So like the Internet is brutal about feedback. But then the other thing is from yourself. And so yourself is a much better audience, because if you listen to the Internet, nobody would ever do anything. There's too many bad people.

Dr Todd Dewett

If you are lucky enough to find a good coach or mentor, and it's a whole nother, whole nother question, but a person who has insight about you, who's willing to say what needs to be said. And this is the end you give them that video. You might hear some amazing things. Let me tell you, video is cheap. It's unavoidable. It's brutal. And it's very useful.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. I love it. I will for those folks that we talked about your LinkedIn course and I'll certainly drop links for everybody in the episode notes for this stuff so you can access this part and I'll even go back and see if I can find that Chris Rock segment you were talking about that. I kind of want to watch it now that you now that you tossed it in there and you told a story about it now I'm like I'm gonna look on YouTube and see if I can get that. So I'm gonna I'm gonna look for these things but if people want to keep in touch with you what are the best places for them to find you?

Dr Todd Dewett

Sure. Thanks for asking two obvious answers. One is LinkedIn. My last name is Dewett. There's no one else like me. Very easy to find for better or for worse. And then I also have my own personal website with a lot of different information at drdewett.com.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Very cool. And for you tuning in, so two opportunities for you listening. First, do you have a friend or colleague who either tells good stories or doesn't tell good stories and has ever mentioned somebody who's interested in public speaking or that kind of thing? If you do, would you send this episode specifically to them? Like shoot them a text or an email and tell them why you thought of them for it. You'll tell your own story and why you thought of them for it. Because it might inspire a meaningful conversation. And it almost is a way for you to provide like a gift for them so that they could check it out too. And I find that, you know, sharing, hey, check out Productivity Gladiator, the show is great. But if there's one particular episode that you should listen to and why, I can tell you if I got that message, I would absolutely check out that episode and I would text them back and start engaging with them. And so if that happens to you as you've been listening and there's somebody who comes to mind, please send them this episode. I know Todd and I would both love that.
And the last thing is thanks for subscribing and thanks for the reviews you guys have posted over the years. And I also have special knowledge and events that I send only to email subscribers as well. So if you're not part of the Predictivity Gladiator email list, I invite you to come join the fun. But I love sharing Predictivity Gladiator with you. So thanks for tuning in and that's a wrap.

10 Time Management Hacks for New Managers - with Eric Girard

Eric Girard joins Brian as a co-host to unveil 10 time management hacks for new managers, empowering them to balance their increased responsibilities efficiently. These hacks will help you carve out the time necessary to fulfill your team's needs while handling your personal responsibilities.

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The Audio/Podcast

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Links to References In This Episode

• Brian's TEDx talk "Reimagining the Value of Your Time"

• Brian's time value calculator

• Brian's post on stopping the back-and-forth to schedule meetings

  • Calendly

• AI transcription apps:

  • Fathom

  • Otter

• Video: 11 ways normal office workers can use AI right now to be more productive.

• Blog Post: Dictating is 3x faster than typing, start talking!

• Amazon Subscribe & Save

• Eric's company website

• Brian's company website

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Episode Digest

#BrianCheesesTooHard

Mastering time management is vital as you transition into a management role. In this episode, productivity experts Brian Nelson-Palmer and Eric Girard shared 10 time hacks for new managers. Here are their tips, check out the episode for more detail.

Eric’s Ideas:

1. Calendar block everything.
   Put all tasks and appointments on your calendar, even small items like writing up notes. Block off specific times and treat your calendar as the boss. Eric aims for 15 minute increments. This ensures items don't slip through the cracks.

2. Use a system that works for you.
   For example, don't force yourself to use a complex system or app if simple to-do lists work better. Eric uses Apple Calendar, Mail, and Notes while Brian uses a calendar for places he needs TO BE, to-do lists for what he needs TO DO, and notes/lists/checklists for thoughts and ideas he needs TO REMEMBER. Find what is sustainable and scalable long-term. The best system is the one you'll actually use.

3. Leverage AI for meeting transcriptions to capture summary and action items.
   Use apps like Fathom to get full transcriptions of meetings. Review the transcript quickly after to pull out key points vs listening to long recordings. This saves time absorbing content.

4. Run multiple calendars.
   Have distinct calendars for work, personal, family etc. to toggle on/off as needed. This reduces overwhelm of seeing everything at once. Eric manages 5+ calendars based on priorities.

5. Apply the 3 D's method for email.
   Do it (handle quick emails instantly), delegate it (schedule time later for longer items), or delete it (remove junk mail). Stay on top of your inbox to avoid overload.

Brian’s Ideas

1. Stop running basic errands.
   Order online or use delivery services instead of spending time on basic errands. Know your hourly rate to determine if it's worth your time. Leverage technology to optimize efficiency.

2. Use subscriptions and auto-delivery.
   Set up subscriptions for household items and auto-delivery for work supplies to save time. Get discounts with subscribe and save options. One less thing to remember.

3. Leverage AI to redirect your time to your people.
   Use AI to automate administrative tasks and free up time for people management, the key role of any manager. AI can't replace human emotional intelligence and empathy.

4. Avoid “email tag” back and forth to schedule meetings.
   Provide your availability or links to schedule time through calendar apps like Calendly. Don’t waste time on coordination.

5. Talking to your computer is 3X faster than typing.
   Dictation is faster than typing. Use voice-to-text built into your computer and apps to compose emails and notes. Stop typing, start talking.

In addition, Brian emphasized calculating your hourly rate to assess if buying back time is worthwhile. Eric noted that while technology can optimize efficiency, you should still control your system rather than letting it control you.

Key themes covered include leveraging technology for efficiency, structuring your time deliberately, streamlining communication, and automating administrative tasks wherever possible. The overarching focus is on freeing up time for people leadership - the core of management.

Assess your own work style and needs, then implement the approaches that fit you best. The right time management system will be personalized. Experiment to find what works. The goal is to establish a sustainable approach to maximize your time and energy as a new manager.

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Today’s Guest

ERIC GIRARD
CEO, GIRARD TRAINING SOLUTIONS

Eric Girard has over 30 years of experience helping improve the performance of managers and employees. He specializes in the development of new managers, focusing on their successful transition to their new role and on their team management skills. He has a high-energy and engaging facilitation style.

Eric is a passionate, lifelong learner. As a PADI Open Water Scuba Instructor, he is pursuing the rating of Master Scuba Diver Trainer. When not designing or delivering training, he enjoys spending time outdoors with his wife and twin 14-year-old daughters.

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/ericpgirard

Instagram: instagram.com/eric.p.girard

Website: girardtrainingsolutions.com

Podcast: girardtrainingsolutions.com/podcast

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Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian does special zoom events and shares hacks and tips exclusively for his email subscribers. Topics like “13 alternatives to checking social media on your phone” or “2 email rules which will cut your email inbox in half” and more. Sign up to start receiving the tips from these exclusive events!

About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. I teach overworked project managers how to level-up their life balance and pump up their practical productivity through my Productivity Gladiator training system. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.

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Brian Nelson-Palmer:

Eric, it is such a treat to get to do this with you today, man. I've been so stoked about talking about it. We said 10 time management hacks up and coming managers can use.

Eric Girard:

Yeah, I'm super excited. I've never co hosted before. So this will be an adventure. And you know, if you get tired of talking about time management, we can always talk about scuba.

Brian Nelson-Palmer:

That's right. We just found out Eric is an escuba instructor and I went through the YMCA dive thing in college and stuff and diving is fun. So we both found that out and we both found out that neither one of us have to wear swim caps anymore because we're both already aerodynamic in the water.

Well, thanks for getting together. And for folks, let's do a quick intro on Eric, just a little bit about your back. We're about to talk about 10 time management hacks for up and coming managers. So what's the perspective that you're coming to this because?

Eric Girard:

Yeah, so I am super passionate about time management. And I think that came, I'll be real with you for a second. I think that came from being a little ADHD and a little OCD. So I found that I had to be hyper organized in order to get through a day without just completely blowing off everything. So I have found that keeping myself organized means that everybody around me is happier. I'm happier.

And I've also taught time management as well. And that was like a duct to water where I teach time management and it's just so easy and so fun. I do things a little differently than most folks, I think, because I need to be really organized, but I'm happy to share those tips. And I invite folks to take what works and reject the rest. Just go with what works.

Brian Nelson-Palmer:

Absolutely. And for me, this is, I did a TEDx talk on the value, reimagining the actual value of your time is the name of the talk. And I was really blessed because it got picked by Ted and was out there. I was like put out there and kind of went a little viral. And it was also really cool because I've been teaching this stuff since 2014. I do with productivity gladiator. I'm teaching life balance and personal practical productivity skills and time management is a big piece of that learning. So for me, given these workshops for so many years, I've got so many of these ideas. So in the prospect of like, oh, let's get together with Eric and let's both share some and like go back and forth on this. This was oh, man, this is so cool. So and I'm with you. I've never really co-hosted an episode before. So we're trying something new in that like we're both hosts of shows. So let's get together and do a show together. This is this is fun. So let's jump in.

Eric Girard:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Let's do it.

So what about, well, why don't you kick it off? What's your first one? We said we're going for 10.

Cool, okay. Yeah, we're going for 10. Okay, so my focus and my background is on new managers. So specifically helping new managers transform from being high performing individual contributors or employees to being a great people manager. So that's the lens I'm looking through is how do I help the new manager figure it out and stay organized so that they can lead their team as well as possible. So with that kind of scene setting, let's dive in.

The first thing I would say is if it's on the calendar, it gets done. So make appointments for everything. I make appointments for tasks. I make appointments for meetings. I use 15-minute blocks for little things. I've gotten really good at estimating how long something will take. And so put it on the calendar. I need to pick up the girls from camp. That's an obvious one. But, hey, I need to write up the show notes from this episode. I'm likely to forget that unless it's on the calendar. And so I'll put that down for 15 or 30 minutes on the calendar. It's blocked off. It gets done. My calendar is my Bible. So that's kind of tip one and two built in together.

Number three is the best system is the one that you'll actually use. So I've got my system. It makes some people's eyes cross. So I don't force my system on folks. I say use the best system is the one that you'll use. I meet a lot of people who love pen and paper and have a paper calendar. Fine, I'm not gonna ridicule that, I'm not gonna say anything bad about it. My system is I use Apple Calendar, I'm a Mac guy, so I use Apple Calendar and I use Apple Mail and I use Apple Notes and that works for me. I've gotten to the point where I used it to carry around a little notebook with me at meetings all the time. And my handwriting has gotten to the point where I can't read my own handwriting anymore. So I spend a lot of time typing notes up. Or when I'm in Zoom meetings, I use Fathom.video to record notes and transcribe.

Brian Nelson-Palmer:

So can I ask you about it? I have a couple of questions on what you shared on that one, on the fathom. I've never heard of that one. Is it, that's an app on your phone or is that you take a picture of what you wrote or how does that one work?

Eric Girard:

Yeah, so Fathom, there are others like Otter.ai is another one. And there are a bunch of them. These are AI apps that are extensions. In this case, Fathom only works with Zoom. And it joins the meeting like a participant and records the whole thing. It records the video, it records the audio, and then it uses AI to give you a transcription. And so after a meeting, like if I'm in a client meeting or if I'm in a workshop and I really want to make sure I get the key points, all I have to do is, the recording is instantaneous. So as soon as the meeting is over, the transcript is ready. And I'll go right to the transcript and scroll through it and go, ah, there's the key point, boom, done. So rather than listening to a Zoom recording for, you know, and repeating the thing for another hour, in 15 minutes, I've scrolled through and gotten the key points and I'm on my way.

Brian Nelson-Palmer:

Oh, that's amazing. And you, and you were talking, I want to go back. You said you block your time in 15 minute increments. So in my head, does that mean that you have like multiple colors and every 15 minutes of the whole, like, is that just the work day? Is that the entire day? How, how, how big, how far does it go?

Eric Girard:

So let me, for example, if I look at today's calendar, I have, today I've got three calendars going. So I've got my work calendar, my Gerard Training Solutions calendar, that's blue. And so, you know, like this podcast is in blue for this time period. Then I've got my personal calendar, that's green. And so for example, meditating is in green and that's a half hour at eight o'clock and then going to take the car in to get serviced and call the scuba dive shop to ask a question. That's in green. Then the family calendar is in red. My wife runs that calendar. And I know that, for example, my twins are volunteering, doing some work over on Bainbridge Island near Seattle. So the nice thing about having these different calendars is if it starts to get overwhelming, if it starts to get too cluttered, I just turn one of the calendars off and then I can focus. So right now I've got the full look at the day or the week or the month, depending. If it's too much, I just turn one off and then I can focus and say, okay, that's what I have to do for work today and I can focus on that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer:

You know, I'm glad we're doing this together because the question I have is I use a similar approach except for me, the time block. If I have a task that I need to block, the tasks for me live on the to do list and the time block is the work time to get tasks done. And so if I have a lot going on, I'll try to block more time for that. But I don't actually put the task on the calendar. For me, it's on a separate sheet because things are always coming up and changing. So my question for you is if you plan to get certain things done and all of a sudden something high priority comes up, does that mean are you changing calendar events? Are you just moving things around? Or how does it work for you?

Eric Girard:

Sure, yeah, it's totally flexible. You just drag stuff around. So I actually, I adapted this from Franklin Covey. So I was trained in time management from Franklin Covey, and a guy named Dave Green was, you know, for a minute, he was like the expert in time management in Outlook. And he had this method called drag drop, turn it into what it is. So in Outlook, back in the day, there was the core four. There was mail, calendar, tasks, and notes. And so when an email came in, you decided what it was. Was it a task, something you had to do? Was it an appointment you'd drag in on the calendar? Was it a contact you'd drag it into to address book? Or was it a note you wanted to hang on to later and you'd drag it into notes? So you would drag these things around. And I'm just shortcutting that and just saying, you know what, I've got my email inbox, I've got my calendar, I make appointments to get tasks done. So I don't have a task list. Yeah, so.

Brian Nelson-Palmer:

You know, and I love that we're having this conversation because it just, just like you said, everybody has their different approaches, right? So what works for different folks? You find the tools that work for you. And for me, I have the calendar is where I need to be like places I need to mentor. It's like, I need to be somewhere physically or mentally or virtually. I need to be there. So that's the calendar and then the tasks are somewhere else. And so moving it on that's, Oh man, I like this. I'm going to play with this, putting it on the calendar thing. I'm curious about how that would work.

Eric Girard:

Yeah, it just, it helps a lot. I mean, it just helps me focus because like what I will often do is I will look at the week. So like on a weekend, on a Sunday, I'll look at the week coming or the next couple of weeks coming. And I'll make sure that there's that stuff that needs to get done is on the calendar. There's a time for it and I'll build in prep. So for example, I built in a half hour of prep before this podcast. Sometimes I don't do that. I'll block the book, the podcast, and then realize later, whoops, there's no time to get ready for that. And so I'll make time to get ready for that. And then if something else comes up, so for example, I've got a note here, a personal note, that I need to take care of something with my scuba gear. That's not high priority. And so if something else comes in, I'll just drag that stuff myself. It's no big deal.

And then my last tip, and sorry. Yep. Okay. We actually jumped into number four, which is using multiple calendars. Yeah, so personal work and so on. You know, I have a client that wants me in their system, so I've got their calendar. I was on a volunteer board and I was in their system. So at one point I was running five calendars. You know, and they all told me where I needed to be. And if it started to get too much, it was just easy enough to toggle them on and off.

That's why I advocate using multiple calendars, because you can reduce the overwhelm of, God, this is too much to do today. It's like, well, actually, turn off the family calendar, because you don't need to know that the girls are going on a picnic. That's not information you need right now, so you can shut that off. And then my last tip, and these are not in order, by the way, these are just, you know, as they as they came out. The last tip is do it, delegate it or delete it. So this is specific to email. So, so true story, true story. Right now I have 20 red emails in my inbox, and that's actually a few too many for me at the moment. I would be much more comfortable if it was down in the teens.

I know people who have tens of thousands of unread emails, and they're completely overwhelmed. They're just completely overwhelmed. They're like, why even try? Why even bother? So the method I use to handle email, which is a big time suck, I think, for everybody, is do it, delegate it, or delete it. If an email comes in, and it'll only take a minute or two to handle, do it right then. Take care of it, and then throw it out. Or can you delegate it? Can you have somebody else do it or can you delegate it to yourself just later in the day or later in the week? You know and then make an appointment for it Or if it's garbage just delete it and get it the heck out of your inbox like don't even deal with it Corollary to that is ruthlessly unsubscribe. You're gonna wind up on mailing lists Of course down at the bottom of every piece of junk email I've gotten is a little itty-bitty tiny in two-point font unsubscribe button But it's there. Look for it. And unsubscribe. And so I stay on that, because I don't want to be on mailing list I don't want to be on. Keep your inbox tidy so it's not overwhelming. And use a folder system to keep stuff you want to refer back to. So just like where I have multiple calendars, I have multiple email accounts as well. The reason I like Apple Mail is because it's an email aggregator. So I'm not tied into Gmail. Apple is platform agnostic. And so I've got my own personal server email in there. I've got Yahoo, I've got Gmail. It just, it sits over all of it and manages all of it. And so each of these email accounts have folders where I keep stuff if I want to refer back to it, but it's not in my inbox.

Brian Nelson-Palmer:

Right? That's you got to move it. Got to move it out of the inbox for sure.

Eric Girard:

Yeah, because if you're living in your inbox, you're doomed. Related, a lot of us will start in the morning and start in the inbox and just start clicking through emails. Don't do that. Start in the calendar. Start planning your day and what are you supposed to be doing? And then at certain points through the day, go catch up on your email. You got to break, a few minutes between meetings. Maybe you block half an hour to take care of email. But it's an intentional thing rather than getting sucked into it. And then you've lost three hours. And now you've got to scramble through the rest of your day to keep up, catch up with the stuff that you were supposed to be doing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer:

Eric, do you ever mess with the phrase that I learned is eat the frog first, but it's a, I can't, oh man, I can't remember who famous. I think it's Mark Twain. Mark Twain said this where if you eat a frog in the morning, the rest of your day can't possibly get any worse. It's going to be better. But the way that they use that is instead of opening your email, you do one big task. What's your frog for the day and do that first before you open your email. And that way, if you get, whenever you open email, you get sucked into email, you've already accomplished the big thing for the day. And so I've been doing that for years, but it's eat the frog first is the phrase. the big thing for the day. And so I've been doing that for years, but it's eat the frog first is the phrase.

Eric Girard

Oh, that's a good one. I'm, I, you know, now I can't eat frog legs anymore.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

You're switching to Escargot. That's right. Yep. That's funny.

Eric Girard

Oh my goodness. Yeah, I think yeah, it's been a while since I've had a good truffle. Perhaps I'll perhaps I'll switch to truffles.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah. I'll put your pinky out. Stop. There we go. Do we? And you know, you brought up the three D's. What's interesting is that for me, it's the four D's. It's deal with it, delegate it, defer it or delete it. And so it sounds like you said delegate and defer are one in the same when you delegate it to yourself later, or something. But it sounds like we're using very similar approaches, which is that's awesome. Yeah. With the. Oh, man. I love this.

All right, five things. That was five. Let me try five. I've got, I've got one. My first one, uh, and this up and coming managers, stop running errands. Uh, this is one that so many things can be delivered these days and people get stuck in going to run the errands. And so one of the things, I mean, I talk about it in the Ted talk, I actually have on my website. If you haven't, or if you want to go to productivity gladiator.com and there is a calculator that allows you to calculate what your personal time, what your time is worth and it'll give you a guesstimate for your personal and your work. And so that is my metric for whether it's worth my time to run that errand. So for example, if you're getting donuts and coffee for the team and you could stop at Dunkin donuts and get it, or if you're going to get lunch for the team or something, you could stop and do that. Or if that's going to take you half an hour and delivery is available for 10 bucks, then maybe get it delivered. And that way you don't have to take that on or that extra errand on. So,

Look for that or time for your family at the home. It works the same way. You can get your groceries delivered. A lot of the things you need for the house, you can get delivered. And so if it's worth it, you can, now that you know what, if you go to the calculator and you know what your time is worth, it's easy to kind of an easy way to look at it on, okay, maybe this is or isn't worth it for me to go and do. So stop running errands that you don't have to, if you can. That's number one.

Eric Girard

Oh, yeah. So my background is Silicon Valley. I spent 20 years in Silicon Valley. And at first, I was floored because they had cafeterias on site, like really good food on site. They had laundry delivery service. They had a gym on site. They had all these things. And it was a little bit like Golden Handcuffs. It was like, yeah, let's make it pleasant for you to be here so that you can focus on work. But I really came to rely on that, especially the laundry service.

When I moved to Seattle and moved out of Silicon Valley, I didn't have purple tie anymore to take care of my laundry. So I was running errands, going to get the laundry. And just on a fluke, I asked my dry cleaner, do you do delivery? And they're like, oh yeah, it's six bucks round trip. I'm like, that is a no-brainer. That is a no-brainer. Absolutely, yeah.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Oh my gosh, I love that you mentioned laundry in DC and wherever you're listening from, there is likely a service similar to this or your local laundromat might do it. But I, you might judge me for this. People sometimes laugh at me for this, but I have not done my own laundry in seven years because I found, I found a service that will do it and it's a dollar per pound. And so it ends up being like, if you've got two, you know, overflowing hampers ends up being about 35 bucks or something like that. But to have that three hours of time spent laundry back for me is so worth that, that expense. And for the same reason you just said about like, this is why they do it in Silicon Valley and to keep free up your time so you can work more. Or in this case, sometimes you can life more instead of work more. So that's a good one.

Eric Girard

Yeah. Well, I mean, that kind of goes to my point about the best system is the one you'll use. If you think it's worth 35 bucks to have somebody else wash, dry, fold your laundry, and bring it back to you, then okay. I'm positive I could never convince my wife to go for that. She'd be like, take an hour on Sunday and go fold your laundry, go.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Right. Yep. And circumstances very much. So it depends. And so each decision is different for each person. Totally. So now, uh, okay. So number two, I'm going to take it. Stop running errands again, but this time I want you to level it up with subscribe and save or subscriptions. And the examples I have for this are like, we have a cat, all of the stuff for the cat arrives at regular intervals. So not only do you not run errands for it, but you also don't have to remember to order it. You don't have to like the kitty litter shows up every two weeks so that it can be changed. The food shows up. You know how much they're going to use in a two month period. So set up that subscription. And so if it's possible to do subscriptions, it's a huge help mentally and for your time. Right. The the other two examples for humans, I just shared cat examples. I share some human ones, too, like toothbrush heads. If you need a new toothbrush, you're not going to remember when the last time was that you needed a new toothbrush or when you started it. But if it's a subscription and it shows up at a regular interval, then you know that you're changing every three months when it shows up, you change it or same thing. Smoke detector batteries is like a big win because you never remember when the last time was that you changed them and you're supposed to do it every year or so. So these are just examples of things you can subscribe for. And the other piece is look for Amazon or for Chewy or for some of these websites that allow you to do this. They often offer a five to 15% discount if you subscribe for the item. So pay attention to those, this works for work stuff too. You can subscribe to paper and things you need at work so that not only do you not have to run the errand, but you also don't have to remember to do it either. It just shows up.

Eric Girard

Yeah, nice. I found, like, we were doing subscriptions for stuff, and I found out we wound up with too much stuff for some reason. And so, especially with spa chemicals, I'm like, you know what, I'd rather not have a year's supply of shock around. I just needed a bottle at a time. So yeah, but I see your point there. And going to my first point, if it's on the calendar, it gets done.

Guess how often I change smoke detector batteries? Exactly once a year on the same day every year. No, it's an all day event. It's just change the smoke detector batteries sometime today.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Once a year, six months. At the same time too, right? 9 AM. When is it? All day. All day event, yep. That is when you said all day event for a second, I was like, did he take a sick day just for smoke detector batteries? No, no, no. Okay.

Eric Girard

No, no, it's just like, you know, it's like, you know, get it done today sometime when you have a minute. Like it's time, it's been a year, sort of a thing.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

All right. Number three, use AI when you can. There are chat GPT. I've been doing a lot with this recently. I've got a YouTube video that just came out on the on 11 ways you can use it to be more productive at work. It also works at home. I just there's another podcast episode I just did on AI that was about with someone who, gosh, it was Christopher Lind, who was a big AI personality, industry leader. And we were talking about this topic. And one of the things we shared is like it frees up your time at work. It frees up time to spend more time on your people. Like Eric, you were talking about you teach lessons. You got to be a better people leader just because you're good at the work. Doesn't make you a good manager. What got you here won't get you there. And the same thing, if you can use AI. So, for example, here's an example. You go to one of these zoom meetings and you have an hour long transcript copy and paste that transcript into AI. Ask for, have it tell you what are the action items, give me a summary and generate slides to go over this. So if you're a project manager, you could do that with your weekly update and then the slides could go to your supervisors or your managers, you could have it do the slides and that kind of stuff. But by having that extra time that you would have spent two hours creating all of this, and now it only takes you maybe half an hour. That'll give you a little more time. Make sure that you use that time with your people. And so use AI to free up time to be a better people leader. That's such a huge one, I think. So get that time savings to be better.

Eric Girard

Yeah, totally agree. I mean, one of the things I realized, I went to the Association for Talent Developments International Conference in San Diego a month or two ago. And I went to every session on AI that I could. And the thing I walked away from those sessions was, first off, I was a little unnerved. You know, there's that, it's like, this is pretty scary. But also machines cannot out-human a human. And so if you can use AI to be more relational, more empathetic, a better human being to your people, and let AI take care of the back office stuff, then I think that's gonna result in a better workplace.

Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:34.37)

Totally. I mean, Eric, I'm sure it comes up in what you teach and stuff, but when you go to all the employee viewpoint surveys and the employee feedback and that kind of stuff, the top managers are the ones that engage with their people every single time. So make sure if you can use AI or apps or subscriptions, like we're talking about ways to free up your time so that you can spend that time with your people, it will pay you dividends in your career forever and ever. So.

man, do it, take advantage of that time savings. All right, number four. And you know, I love that you brought up email stuff because my number four is stop emailing back and forth to schedule meetings. I can't, just yesterday, I had somebody reach out to me inside my company, I also have a day job, and inside the company, the people sent me an email and they asked, hey, could we meet? When would be a good time to meet? And in my head alarm bells went off. It's like inside the organization. If you have Outlook, it's called scheduling assistant or Google has, you can see them or there's apps like Calendly that will do. It's amazing. Yes. And they can see when you're available. So no, I am not going to reply back and give you all of these options. And then you're going to reply back and say, well, I can't do those. What about those? And then I'm going to reply back. And sometimes it turns into

Eric Girard

I love Calendly. Calendly is my killer app. Yes.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

five, six, seven, 10 emails trying to get this thing set up. No, man, just go look at the calendar, see when it's available. So for you as an up and coming manager, please do not get in the habit of emailing to set up meetings. Make sure for yourself, if you're in an organization and you can set it up, you can hook up your calendar to a Calendly thing and you can, you can use it for free. It's a freemium service. So you can even start for free and just have a 30 minute

meeting that's available, but that will at least let you send a link to tell people when you're available. And it even works. Oh my gosh, I it's a you could even use it in certain circumstances in your personal life too. That's you know, Eric, there's a question for you there though, because I feel like in my personal life, if somebody wants to get together for happy hour, or they want to hang out, and it's a friend or something, and I send them a Calendly link, there's a level of like, nah, that's not a good vibe.

Eric Girard (27:59.995)

No, no, no. Everything, most of what I'm talking about is work related. Making sure that things are on the calendar, that's universal. But Calendly is a work thing. Like I would never send a friend a Calendly link to get together for fun. Like that would be, I think that would be offensive.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Yeah. And at the same time, Eric, I wish I could with my really good friends that know me. I do it anyway, because they know me and they know that I love them and I will absolutely cherish them. And I do great thing. You know, I feel like I am a good, I show up as a good friend in that relationship. But if we're in a text message back and forth, they know I do this productivity gladiator thing. And so if we text a couple of times and we can't find a time.

Here's the calendar link. Look at it and tell me when it works. We've gone back and forth twice. Now this doesn't go in anywhere. I didn't. Oh, that's fine. Um, so I did, and I'll include a link that I did do a blog post on how to stop the back and forth calendar and this kind of stuff. So if you're not familiar with what Eric and I are talking about with calendar and this other stuff, that stuff is available, talking about scheduling assistant and that kind of stuff. So if you're an up and coming manager and you don't already know about this stuff, please do check it out. Uh, that'll be a good.

Eric Girard

You know what, in my previous roles, I was a vendor manager, among other things. I also spent a lot of time talking with vendors about training products. And Calendly was not really a thing when I was inside. Calendly really blew up during the pandemic for me, where it became like the killer app. But if I wind up inside again, I'm finding a way to use Calendly or something like it to schedule meetings with people outside the company, because it's just invaluable.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. And if you're an office person and you don't know, it's called bookings is the office app. And so if you Google it, if you're not already familiar, but if you've got SharePoint or if you've got office 365 through your organization, it's called bookings or if you have Gmail, you can use Calendly. That is a third party provider, but there's different solutions. So for your organization, it might be different, but yeah, look for it and find it and, and find a way to be able to send someone a link so that they can book that meeting.

So that's a good one. And then, you know, my last one, my fifth one is dictating is three times faster than typing. So start talking. And this is a, it's a blog post that I did and I can share the link, but there is a statistic that typing speed on average people speak three times faster than typing. And so what's amazing though, is that with AI and with all of the technology that they've gotten, the dictation ability.

is significantly better than it ever was before. So like the one that'll blow your mind, if you haven't done this, try it right now. You can pause this show and go on and hit the microphone button and tell your phone or your computer, how much wood can a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? And I guarantee you, it gets it right every time. All of the, it knows how to separate them up. It, you can insert commas. You might have to dictate the commas, but it'll do it.

And so the reason I share this is for me personally, it's a, there is a dictate button in Outlook that you use. You can hit dictate and then you can talk to your computer or in Gmail or on a Mac. Everyone has, every system has a shortcut to access a microphone so that you can talk and learn how to start talking to the computer. And my little rule for myself now is if I'm gonna type more than two sentences, speak it first. And then you can go back and just read it and make sure that it came out the way that you would.

because my process to send an email used to be to write it down, type it all, and then go back and reread it. And now I dictate it and then go back and read it. And it, at least it saves it's at least a 50% uptake and how long it takes me to compose emails, especially work longer ones. That's just something for me.

Eric Girard

Mm hmm. Huh. When you said dictate, I thought you were going to go and do a management technique, which worried me for a second.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Ah, yeah. Dictate short for dictatorship. Yes, we have a good time in this company. Absolutely.

Eric Girard

Yes. Do it my way now. So I'm glad we didn't go that way. But that's actually really interesting. I use dictation right now. I use it with Siri when I'm driving. So yeah, so I have Apple CarPlay in my car. And when I get texts from people while I'm driving, I'll respond via text. And that's handy because you can keep the conversation going without getting on the phone because the telephone is so passe these days. And so just being able to dictate a quick response to a text is handy. So yeah, I will play with that.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Absolutely. If you haven't every single one of them, I just found it took me forever to figure it out. But in Mac, I, I use windows professionally and I use Mac personally. And for personal, you hit the command button twice on your keyboard and it immediately activates the dictation feature so you can speak to text. And so it's a, it's a great, it's a great thing. So, you know, Eric, before we, we said 10 things, that's 10 things. And I wanted to ask before we adjourn, do you have any personal stories. We're talking about 10 time hacks for up and coming managers. Are there any personal stories that you have overall on this topic that, you know, like somehow this is a personal thing for you or clearly it's a passion of yours because you talk about this. Where does that come from?

Eric Girard

Yeah. So I think it's kind of keeping myself organized and then wanting to share that with other people and help other people be organized as well. So my whole focus is on wanting to help. And I've chosen as my niche is I want to help new managers hit the ground running. And so that's where all of this comes from. And the story I've got about this goes to the point I made about the best system is the one you'll use.

This is actually a story about a manager of mine named Jeff. And Outlook was fairly new to us in this organization. And I had figured it out. I'm kind of a tech head. And so I'd figured out Outlook. And the core four and the drag drop turned into what it is. And so I'm making Outlook sing and dance. And people around the office knew that. And so they would come to me and ask for tips. One day, my manager, Jeff, came to me and said, Eric, I'm having trouble with Outlook. Can you help me? Sure.

And he, my perception was that he needed to do a specific series of things to get Outlook to do what he wanted it to do. And let's just say for the sake of argument, it was a list of 10 things. And so I'm like, okay, first go here, click here, do this, change that value, that, and his eyes started to gloss over and he looks at me and he says, you know what, Outlook is not the boss of me. Outlook is not the boss of me. And I've never forgotten that because

It's not. Your system should not boss you around. You are in charge of your system. The best system is the one that you use. And so to the extent that you're able, because I realize that some companies say, all right, we're an Outlook shop or a Microsoft shop or we're a Gmail shop. But to the extent that you're able, modify and adapt the system to suit your style of working. That's what I would.

I would say for this is, you know, if you're not technically oriented or, you know, you just, you hate outlook, find an alternative. I, you know, I think, I think that there in companies, there is a certain expectation that you need to be able to handle the technology that's offered to you. And I think that you have a responsibility to do that. And at the same time, I don't think you should accept it on its face. It's like, you know what, there's gotta be an easier way. So let's find the easier way. So there you go. Outlook is not the boss of me.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

Outlook is not the boss of me. I like, I like that a lot. I think that there's a lot of people that will relate to that in technology in general. There are some people that they sign off at the end of the day and they're like, oh my gosh, I will not go back on my computer again until I have to for work tomorrow. And so the only way you can get through to them after hours is via phone because they don't look at their computer unless they absolutely have to. And so technology and outlook is not the boss of me. I like that.

For me, it's actually, you know, Eric, I'm appreciating that you and I are almost like a great one, two punch because your, your target or your niche is up and coming managers. And you know, what got you here, won't get you there. Being a good manager is different than being a good employee. And for me, a productivity gladiator is about, uh, helping overworked project managers to level up their life balance and their personal practical productivity skills. And so it's really about starting out in the workplace as an employee.

And they don't often teach you some of these skills about life balance and how to have a good life balance and how to handle all of this stuff like outlook and all these tools. And so the interesting personal story for me is I, I worked in the government for many years and there, I worked with a lot of contractors for the government and also employees in the government who were not necessarily good. You had to chase them. You know, these people, you probably can relate to this.

There's these people that you have to chase them down because you ask them for something and then you don't hear back. And now the onus is on you to ask them again. And then you have to ask them again. And like, my gosh, wouldn't it be great if everybody had this system for being able to get back to you or, or be able to handle the overwhelm. If they've got too many emails, the people with 10,000 emails, how do you fix that? How do you handle that? And so it's a personal thing for me was one of my good, my good buddies.

was talking to me about this years ago and said, you know, Brian, you have a system, so share your system. It doesn't have to be the perfect system. It's not the only system. And I love that having this conversation with you, like Eric, you and I have different approaches to some of these things, but we both have a system. And so if you need to work with somebody working with Brian or working with Eric is going to be a good teammate to have because we have a system. So teach that system. And I love that so much. And so teaching, sharing these tools and these tricks and these tactics and the stuff that we're doing right now is my God, I could spend hours doing this and we're not going to, because we don't want to be in your ears for this long, as far as talking and podcast episodes aren't meant to be that long. So I think we've, we've gone, we've gone on and droned on about, we've done our 10, 10 hacks. Anything else that you've got today before we just kind of adjourn this one or conclude it.

Eric Girard

No, this was a lot of fun. You really kind of reawaken the passion of me. And if folks want to get a hold of me, you can always reach out to GerardTrainingSolutions.com and take a look at what we offer. Time management and prioritization is one of our classes.

Brian Nelson-Palmer

And that's, and for me, I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. I'm founder of Productivity Gladiator, and we're teaching life balance and personal practical productivity skills to overworked early and mid-career project managers. So along the same lines, time management, prioritization, those kinds of things as well. But I love this, it's through a lens of as a manager and a manager in training and coming up through it and starting off in the beginning. So I certainly would love to keep in touch as well. So.

All right, that's a wrap.