Leadership Strategist Sara Canaday joins Brian and shares insights on the key differences that turn a good leader into a great one. Unlike vague general leadership training, this conversation is specific for a change, delving into what a good leader and a great leader would do in the same situation, to unlock their team's potential and become truly memorable leaders.
The Audio/Podcast
Links to References In This Episode
Sara Canaday’s LinkedIn Profile
Subscribe to Sara’s Newsletter
Sara Canaday’s Courses on LinkedIn Learning
Sara Canaday’s Books, on Amazon
Book Brian mentioned, Strengths Based Leadership
Episode Digest
We all know the basics of good leadership - meeting targets, maintaining an efficient team, delivering results. But what propels a leader from merely good to truly great? What’s gives them the elusive "X-factor" that inspires unwavering loyalty and leaves a lasting legacy. Sara and Brian dove in.
““It’s one thing to just pass on information, but a great leader actually brings that vision to life.””
Great leaders educate rather than just inform.
"It's one thing to just pass on information, but a great leader actually brings that vision to life."
Actionable Takeaway: Use creative methods like props, analogies, visuals, and stories to make ideas tangible and relatable when communicating with your team. Don't just relay information - vividly illustrate the "why" behind decisions and initiatives.
A great leader is a talent cultivator, not just a task distributer.
"A great leader actually matches those team members with the skills that they're not only good at, but that inspire them."
Actionable Takeaway: Have one-on-one conversations to understand each person's unique interests and motivations. Then deliberately assign projects and responsibilities that leverage their strengths while providing growth opportunities in areas of passion.
Foster an environment of open dialogue and critical thinking.
"What are we missing here?" "What would make you more comfortable with this strategy?"
Actionable Takeaway: Resist providing just the answers. Ask thought-provoking questions that challenge assumptions and invite diverse perspectives. Make your team meetings a psychologically safe space for candid input.
Be a connector and developer of people.
"A great leader is so well connected themselves. They've worked hard enough on their own network that they can now share it with you."
Actionable Takeaway: Actively connect your team members with other experts, mentors, training opportunities and experiences that can accelerate their professional growth and career aspirations. Share your own networks liberally.
Display entrepreneurial spirit and vision.
““A great leader is so well connected themselves. They’ve worked hard enough on their own network that they can now share it with you.””
"They're asking questions on a broader scale...Why do we always do it this way? What if we stopped doing this altogether?"
Actionable Takeaway: Don't just maintain the status quo. Challenge existing processes and ways of thinking, and provide potential alternatives. Inspire your team by posing bold "what if" questions that spark innovation and positive disruption.
Be situationally fluent and highly self-aware.
"Can they read the room? Can they sense that they're going a little too much in the weeds? Can they sense the conversation needs levity?"
Actionable Takeaway: Continuously work on developing emotional intelligence. During meetings and interactions, make it a habit to pause, read verbal and non-verbal cues, and adjust your style and approach as needed to optimally connect with your audience.
The path to great leadership is challenging but rewarding. It requires a steadfast commitment to inspiring and developing others rather than just completing tasks and hitting numbers. By embodying these qualities, you become a leader who doesn't just meet expectations, but one who leaves a lasting impact on your teams and your organization.
The choice is yours - strive for good or strive for great? Embrace these strategies to unlock your ultimate leadership potential.
Today’s Guest
Sara Canaday
Leadership Strategist, Speaker,
and Award-Winning Author
Sara Canaday is a leadership consultant, speaker and author who helps companies maximize the contributions of their leaders and high potentials for bottom-line impact. Drawing on 13 years of corporate experience, Sara has a unique gift for connecting with her clients and ensuring they walk away with actionable strategies for positive change -- strengthening leadership skills, improving business relationships, and enhancing performance.
Sara is a member of the National Speakers Association and a by-invitation only leadership instructor for LinkedIn Learning. She has been featured in a number of publications, most notably Forbes, Entrepreneur Magazine, and The Wall Street Journal.
Sara is the author of three books, You – According to Them: Uncovering the blind spots that impact your reputation and your career, the award-winning book, Leadership Unchained: Defy Conventional Wisdom for Breakthrough Performance, and her latest book, Essential Coaching Skills for Managers: The Tools You Need to Ignite Greatness in Each Employee.
Website: saracanaday.com
Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/saracanaday
Why Subscribe To The Email List: Brian shares separate hacks, tips, and actionable learning exclusively for his email subscribers. Sign up so you don’t miss out!
About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a senior project manager, I now help others to level-up through my Productivity Gladiator training. These Gladiators wield email management superpowers, a laser-guided ability to focus, samurai-grade prioritization skills, a sniper-precise task tracking approach, Jedi time management skills, and a secret sauce for maximizing their personal life balance. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat! Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.
Transcript
Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:03.818)
I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. On this show, I talk about personal practical productivity skills. And in this episode, we're examining the top characteristics that make people brag about their bosses, not just tolerate them. I wanna dive into the difference between good and great when it comes to leadership. And with me on the show today is Sarah Canaday. She is a leadership strategist, a speaker, and an author on this topic exactly. Sarah, thanks so much for being here on the show today.
Sara Canaday (00:33.332)
Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to a good conversation.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (00:37.11)
Absolutely. And now for those folks who might not be familiar with you and your work, talk about you and your relationship with our topic today.
Sara Canaday (00:45.524)
Yeah, so, you know, I'm very familiar with the work world, started like many people, you know, with an entry-level position and worked my way up the corporate ladder, if you will, and spent about 14 years altogether in banking and insurance, you know, very sexy industries. But yeah, that's where I sort of, you know, built my chops, so to speak.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:06.462)
Yes. That's sexy.
Sara Canaday (01:14.936)
moved in sales operations, had a stint as an organizational development manager, which is the part of the work that I really loved, and always straddled between operations and the human side of the organization. HR, organizational development, leadership development, that sort of thing. And then had the opportunity to
leave and start my own boutique leadership and career acceleration firm. And have been doing that now for gosh, 16 plus years.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (01:54.627)
So clearly lots of experience in this. You know, one thing I love to ask is what would you say makes you different from, well, there's a lot of people out there who teach leadership. This isn't a new concept. So like what, what makes Sarah different? in this department?
Sara Canaday (02:08.096)
Well, and I don't mean this to sound spiteful or negative, but I think there are a lot of people out there that are teaching leadership based on theory and not necessarily having been leaders themselves. So they could be academics, researchers, but they haven't necessarily led every level of employee from entry level, I started as a supervisor.
Sara Canaday (02:37.664)
had entry-level people reporting to me. Then I went on to being a senior manager, then a director, then an assistant vice president, then a vice president. So I think the experience is what gives me an edge. And now I think what gives me an edge is that I'm constantly talking to and working with leaders, right? Because I have to stay relevant. I have to stay in the know. Because what could have been a challenge
15 years ago may not be a challenge today, right? And I think we know that that's most likely the case. There are a whole set of challenges that I would have never expected when I was leading.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (03:50.698)
What are those top characteristics? And so I'm sure for you, there were probably some things that came to mind right off the bat, just on this one. So what were those things that came, immediately came to mind for you on this?
Sara Canaday (04:03.092)
Yeah, well, I don't think we can argue that things like performance and producing things on time within budget, the numbers count, right? The numbers count for leaders. That's an expectation. But nowadays, it's a little bit like table stakes. And that's from both perspectives, from the expectations of their bosses, but also from the expectations of those
Sara Canaday (04:32.384)
that follow them, right? So the things, I think we joked earlier, you're not gonna remember that boss that was amazing at Excel pivot tables. You're not gonna be like, oh my God, I had this boss once. You wouldn't believe what they could do with Excel spreadsheets, right? That kind of thing isn't memorable, but you will remember the boss that...
Sara Canaday (05:00.66)
When you came and asked them a question, instead of giving you the answer, they actually took enough time to say, well, what do you think? And they wanted your opinion, but they also wanted to transfer their knowledge, right? So that it's something that would be memorable. Because if they just did what, and I admit I probably did numerous times because it was all about efficiency, you just give somebody the answer. It takes a lot less time.
Sara Canaday (05:31.808)
But if you had the mindset of a leader, not a manager, you're constantly thinking, how can I help my followers grow? grow? So that would be one example.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (05:46.254)
Sarah, I'm well, first of all, you and I are very much aligned in that. I've also had the opportunity to hold all the different levels of leadership positions and now I'm into training. And so I, it's where we've got a great Venn diagram of similarities here, but, and you also bring up a really good point that I want to make sure we talk about because you're right. The perspective of what makes a good leader to the employee might be different to the mid level might be different to the people looking down. So let's
Let's do that now, actually. Let's talk about, so let's say from the perspective of the bottom of the totem pole, from the perspective of the employees, the people on the team looking up at the leader, what are those, what's the, what are some characteristics that come to mind for that person? person? From that.
Sara Canaday (06:31.112)
Yeah, and Brian, I know that we both talked about, you know, we say it's at the bottom, but we both recognize those are the most important people, right, because they're the ones that are collaborating, connecting, and serving your clients. They're the ones that have firsthand knowledge of what's really going on. They're your future leaders, potentially, right?
Sara Canaday (06:59.4)
So in a way serving them, I would think as a leader is one of the most important roles you have. And their perspective and what drives them is crucial. So from their lens, they're looking for a leader who really takes the time instead of just cascading objectives, right? I remember that.
I had a boss who actually used to look at my meeting minutes to make sure that I was passing on what I heard in his meeting. And I get that. Oh, yes. Seriously. he would collect the meeting minutes from all of his managers to make sure that we all were passing on the information, which there is some value there, right? They needed to make sure that information was flowing from the executive council down to...
Brian Nelson-Palmer (07:37.054)
What? Seriously? Oh.
Sara Canaday (07:57.436)
everyone else. However, there was an oversight because simply passing on information doesn't help employees follow the big picture. People need for you as a leader to paint that vivid imagery for them. for them. them. Here's the objectives that we're going for. They want you to share the rationale. Here's why this decision was made.
Sara Canaday (08:27.724)
and they want you to enroll them in the process, right? It is your job to set the stage and set the agenda, but it doesn't mean you can't say, here's the objective, here's the outcomes we're going for, but give people a say in how to get there, right? Because today's employees want to feel like they're playing a bigger role in the evolution.
of a company, right? Now we resist that as leaders because guess what? Once again, it takes time and I get it. We are putting a lot on leaders. So from the perspective of the people who do the work, who are your followers, they want characteristics of somebody who really cares, enrolls them.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (09:00.407)
Thanks for watching.
Sara Canaday (09:26.112)
paints a vivid picture, respects, and goes after your opinion. Right? That's not to say, you know, and is very candid and transparent as to when and why your opinion can't happen. They want somebody who kind of works on an open book management style as much as they can. Right? You don't have to reveal your...
Sara Canaday (09:55.464)
you know, open the kimono entirely, but trust that they A, want and care what's going on and that they can handle it, right?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (10:05.982)
Yeah. Sarah, with these, can we all, I want to yes and you here, because this is all like stuff that's a no-brainer and I'm really fascinated with the difference between good and great. So compare for me when you talked about those things, what is the good leader doing for those and what is the great leader doing for some of those things you just mentioned? Can you call that out?
Sara Canaday (10:26.632)
Right. So, I mean, I just go back to the example of making sure you're passing on information. So a good leader will actually pass the information on. Because let's face it, how many people have you said, you know, you do an employee survey and you ask, are you getting the information you need? And I got to tell you, in a lot of companies, the answer is no.
So leaders are so busy, they're not even passing on the information. So a good leader at least does make sure their employees are informed. A great leader makes sure their employees are informed and engaged. And inspired. Right. I'm always telling leaders shift from communicating to inform and impress.
and move to communicate, to engage and inspire, right?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (11:24.258)
So that's where the telling them the why on why we're doing things and the big picture, all that stuff comes in.
Sara Canaday (11:28.084)
Being transparent.
sharing your rationale. Yes. And then the same thing with good to great in terms of helping to grow and develop your people. A good leader is available for people to ask questions, doesn't shut the door to their office, or never available on Zoom. They actually are there to.
head off questions, remove obstacles, point you in the right direction if you're lost or need some information. A great leader actually holds open office hours, for example, once a week so that anybody could drop in and ask a question and anybody else can hear it for their benefit. And they take the time to say, what do you think? Well, let's explore that.
Sara Canaday (12:27.988)
What other options might be available to us? What if you did that differently? You know, those kinds of questions.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (12:31.294)
Yeah. In that scenario, what do you say about chain of command? I know chain of command is a big thing. If there, if you're, if I'm thinking like, if three levels above you is having office hours and you're going in there and you're asking something that is that a concern with good to great? Or what are your thoughts on that?
Sara Canaday (12:53.736)
Yeah, and I'm glad you asked that because I want to clarify that when I say open office hours, I meant mainly for your own team.
Sara Canaday (13:02.268)
Yes. So that's something I had started to suggest to people since the pandemic that, you know, maybe on Fridays for an hour, you say, look, I'm going to be on Zoom from 10 to 11. I'm just going to be working away. But if you pop in, have a question, I'm here for you. Right. I've also seen companies who've done open office hours after strategic planning. They've announced the strategic plan and there's one sort of project manager or a couple.
Sara Canaday (13:32.212)
that every Friday hold office hours, open office hours to discuss the strategic plan across. So that's to your point, that's would be a more global open office hour.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:45.11)
Got it. So it's open office hours for your team. Okay. That makes sense. Do.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (13:54.398)
Well, OK, so we talked about open and transparency and some of some of that stuff. So now you're still in the lens of the person looking up at your leader. Good difference between good and great. What else you listed like a bunch? What else? What else comes to mind?
Sara Canaday (14:08.104)
Well, one is to be a connector, right? So I think so many people tell me that one of the challenges, especially in big organizations, is the maze. The maze in how to get the information you need. Like, who do you go to? That's half the battle, right? And so a good leader might know where to send you.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (14:25.028)
God yes.
Sara Canaday (14:37.84)
A great leader is so well connected themselves. They've worked hard enough on their own network that they can now share it with you. And they can connect you with the right people if you're struggling with a project, but they remembered somebody they knew was working on a similar project. So it may not even be just information you need to do your job, but just helping you with a challenge you might be having.
Well, let me introduce you to my colleague over at, you know, engineering, they had a similar project or, you know, whatever the case. That leader also is good at connecting you to somebody who holds similar interests in their career and maybe are two steps ahead of you. And so again, you're wanting to grow and develop that person, you're actually coaching them, you're spending one-on-one time, not just on their projects and how you can help them remove obstacles,
Sara Canaday (15:35.692)
how you can get them to spend more time in the things that they enjoy and are good at doing. That means you're supporting them in their career aspirations, right? You're connecting them to maybe courses they could take. You're connecting them to people who can mentor them or have coffee with them, you know, that sort of thing.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (15:56.11)
have those conversations about growth and stuff. And let me ask you, cause this is a sort of a burning question on that topic, which is, okay, now what do you do if you're in an organization where you can't immediately replace people when they leave? Cause this is one of those big concerns, right? Is you connect them, you help them grow, and then they leave and you can't replace them. And now your team is down and now your performance is down. And so it's like this, it's like this sort of bittersweet thing where I think
Brian Nelson-Palmer (16:25.066)
I think most people would want the best for the people that work for them. And I think there's a lot of organizations that set you up to fail if you do that, because then on the backside, you're not gonna be able to replace that person when they're gone or something like that. So what do you say about that in those situations?
Sara Canaday (16:43.988)
Yeah, I mean, that's a tough one.
Sara Canaday (16:49.216)
Here's what I find can happen is if you gatekeep somebody who is ready for the next level, they could leave anyway, right? So now you're stuck with not only not being able to fill that position, but with a potential reputation of not being the kind of manager that supports their employees' growth. So-
I try to encourage whenever I can, even if it puts you in a vulnerable position, that if it's very clear that somebody is ready for the next level and there's an opportunity that you should do everything you can to support that person's progress. I have to admit though, Brian, I have not been in that many situations or leaders that have come to me that have said, I'm hesitant to do that because I can't fill it. Now.
Have I heard leaders say I'm hesitant because they're the only ones on the team that can really work at that level and then I'm gonna have to step in and do more or my team's gonna have to do more? Absolutely. But not being able to backfill the position, that is hard, I'm gonna admit. That's one I haven't heard a lot of, I mean, I've heard it, but I haven't heard a lot of it.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (17:55.838)
Yes. Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:08.81)
Right. Well, and I have a background in government service where they can't re rehire or like you've heard the things on the news where the government's like, well, we're only going to hire one for every three that leaves. And then like, oh, my God, hold on to your teams because you ain't get like it. So I that's part of where my frame of reference there is. So that's and that's a struggle, too, because ultimately, I totally agree with you in that I truly believe in the long run. If you look out for other people, they will look out for you.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (18:37.898)
And so if you help them grow, they are going to want, they are going to recommend people come work for you more than any other manager who tried to keep their teams because so like in the universe, what goes around comes around and that will absolutely be true. So if you hold people back and I've been the employee that's been held back because they didn't want to like, we can't, well, if you go, we can't replace you. I need you to. And so in my mind, like, this is a no brainer where you
First of all, if you have one person that is imperative, it is, and you can't function without them, it's on you as a manager to cross train and get everybody else up to speed so that you are not in that position for yourself and your team. But besides that, gosh, it's so, you're such, it's a much better leader if you're helping them grow. I totally agree.
Sara Canaday (19:26.324)
Right, yeah. And you know, employees really value that. I mean, that's what's gonna lead to loyalty, engagement, discretionary effort on their part. You know, the company benefits, right, from the global loyalty, the global engagement. You know, it's just a domino effect, a ripple effect.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (19:53.598)
Yeah. So the, so it seems like we're saying, so the good manager in this case is one that has the answers. The great manager not only has the answers, but connects you with other people and helps you network and grow your career, not just find the answers.
Sara Canaday (20:11.912)
Yeah, and there's a whole other angle to that. I, you know, a good leader has the answer. A great leader knows how to ask the right questions. So not only are they saying, well, what do you think? But in team meetings, they're using questions very strategically. They're saying things like, okay, what are we missing here? Or if time weren't...
Sara Canaday (20:38.192)
an obstacle here. If we had all the time in the world, how would we approach this? They're saying things at the end of the meeting like, what would make you more comfortable with this strategy? What have I left unsaid? That's a great manager. They're making sure that they're helping their followers think more critically, more innovatively, but they're also
Sara Canaday (21:07.66)
making sure that they're more enrolled. Cause you know, there's always the meeting after the meeting where people say what they really want to say about, you know, a new project or a new process or new hours. But if you say those things at the end, like, you know, I'm sensing some hesitancy, what would make you more comfortable with this? Or what have I left unsaid? You're getting it all out on the table, right then and there.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (21:33.452)
What do you say in those situations also? What do you say to the managers who are, I've been around, there seems to be two schools of thought, right? The one school of thought would be, get the best manager for this role. But what often happens is, the person who's been around the longest or is the most senior who knows how to do the job down here at the floor level, is now like the first one to move up to manager and-
they are not necessarily the best manager. So it's that idea that they believe that being the best at my job is what makes me a good manager. And so in those situations, if you're under a person like that, well, I mean, it's almost like two messages, right? For that manager who got your job because...
You were really good at doing the job underneath you, and now you have this manager job. Please remember what got you here won't get you there. That's not, you got to change. But what do you say for that? There's a level of almost insecurity of managing someone who is better at the job than you are or than you were. Like you don't know the answer. You would have to go to your employee underneath you to find out what that answer is. How do you talk about that sort of ego insecurity situation for bosses?
Sara Canaday (22:58.652)
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I even have a course on LinkedIn, one called How to Manage an Experienced Manager. So it could even be somebody who's just more experienced than you are, right? They may not have, in your case, it was more knowledge about the role, right? It could be either of those things. But I mean, I think in, yeah, in either case, it's going to be a matter of
Sara Canaday (23:28.808)
and transparency. And if you can be really good at all the other pieces of leadership, not management, but more of manager and leader, and be very forthright and say, my job is to be a generalist now. And there will be times where I will have to go to somebody who has expertise at a depth level.
that I don't have, but that's not my role. My role is a leader. I'm a generalist, not a specialist. And the worst is to pretend, I think, that you have that expertise, or even try to limit going to somebody just for the appearance, as opposed to just calling a spade a spade and being really confident about it. Like if...
It's like anything else, if you go into it very timidly, like, oh, well, can you tell me, you know, as opposed to, hey, I'm coming to you because I know you have industry or, you know, institutional knowledge here that I don't hold. And, you know, for me to be of more value to the team, help me understand how XYZ works, right? So you're just confidently asking.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (24:54.058)
Yeah. And you know, thinking that you've got to be the best in order to be the leader is a very dangerous game, because there will always be someone better than you. So my gosh, if you embrace the fact that you don't have to have all the answers, your job as the leader is not to have all the answers. But think about if you've got a team where somebody on your roster has all the answers.
Sara Canaday (25:13.908)
the answers.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:23.394)
How good of a manager are you? Because now you, your whole, you know, like the baseball team is not the one player, it's the whole team. So like, man, you got one home run slugger. That doesn't mean that you've got to be able to hit the home runs too. Like don't go match for match with him on home runs. Just, yeah, so I just, yeah. That's the, my gosh, the thoughts that I'm having here. It's so fun. So Sarah, what about, we've talked a little bit about from the perspective of now the-
Brian Nelson-Palmer (25:51.622)
the employee or the team looking up. Now, what about, I wanna talk about mid-level and then I wanna talk about senior level from that perspective. So now, from the mid-level manager perspective, now you've got a team underneath you and you've got bosses above you. From that person's perspective, what's the good leader? What's a good leader and what's a great leader and what's the difference there?
Sara Canaday (26:17.812)
Yeah, well, I think as you go from your point upwards, I mean, we're gonna circle back to performance, right?
I mean, that's going to be the first line of defense is your performance. Are you hitting your metrics? Is your team hitting your metrics? Have you amassed a team that can cover all the bases? That's a good manager slash leader. A great manager leader actually not only has amassed a team, but
Brian Nelson-Palmer (26:33.742)
Okay, the numbers, what are your metrics?
Sara Canaday (26:57.94)
they're pretty good at matching those team members with the skills that they're not only good at, but that inspire them, right? So...
Brian Nelson-Palmer (27:08.962)
Ooh, okay, like what? When you say inspire them.
Sara Canaday (27:12.412)
Well, because it's one thing to just be able to say, okay, I have a body of work and I'm going to facilitate the distribution of this body of work to eight, 10, 12 people, right? And I do that and I do it in a very organized way. I'm on top of it. Every time that body of work comes in, I'm distributing timely, right? But then it really takes an exceptional leader to say,
Sara Canaday (27:41.348)
Okay, of this body of work, I know that Luis loves this part of this work. And when I know that the more he gets to do this type of work, the more inspired he is to be engaged, to think of more ideas, to contribute. Right? So it's starting to match the work with the interests and the level of skill of the employee. Right?
Sara Canaday (28:11.752)
let's face it, they could be interested in it. If they're not very good at it, then your role as a manager is you gotta say, hey, well, let's help you get good at it, right? So that would be a distinction right there. And in terms of what they... Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (28:32.662)
Ooh, Sarah, can I, I want to, I want to ask you a yes. And on that one, yes, that makes perfect sense. When you find the strengths and I, you know, I've, I've almost, I've hemmed and hawed on the concept of strength based leadership for a while. Like there, there's a, there's a book on this. There's, there's a lot of talk about this. And on the one hand, giving them the things that are their strengths helps your team. And at the same time in development, you know,
having them do the work that helps evolve their weaknesses is a good one too. So I feel like you can't, your team is not gonna be great if you're just giving the strengths to the strong people and moving it around, but you can't also make everybody do the stuff they're bad at thinking that's gonna make a great team. So what, I mean, is it obviously the answer in my head is well then balance it, Brian, but like, what would you say on that?
Sara Canaday (29:25.364)
There's a sweet spot, absolutely. And I'm with you, although I typically have an unpopular opinion about strengths-based. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not a diehard strengths-based person, believe it or not. I know that sounds, it sounds like it runs counter to what I just said. Here's why. I find that when I think about people who have challenges and opportunities to improve. There's a small portion where that lands on actual performance, like inability and skill. I think that's the lesser of what typically happens when somebody has room for improvement. It's in their behavior.
Sara Canaday (30:20.828)
It's in their behavior and in their attitude and their, yeah. So that's why I think that you should talk to your employees about both their strengths and their opportunities for improvement. I'm a firm believer in both.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (30:40.758)
You know, it's almost like it's you need to find the, give them their strengths and let more than half of their workload be strengths and things that they enjoy. And you can almost put it to the team or to them and say, and here's the areas where you can develop skills. You either don't have these skills or don't have good performance in these areas. And if they're most people.
are willing to bite off some of that. And as long as you don't overload their plate with the really bad stuff or the stuff they don't enjoy, then they know, most people know that you go to work and it's not always sunshine and rainbows and sprinkles on top. Like that's not a thing. So yeah, interesting.
Sara Canaday (31:26.608)
Yeah, and I mean, I think it's a somewhat of a privilege to be given the work that you enjoy. So I'm assuming that the person you're giving that work to does not have any team, lack of teamwork type issues or behavioral issues. Yeah.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (31:47.106)
Fair. We're talking about the problem children of the problem children, no matter what their ability are at the job skills department. That's fair. Does it, does your advice change if they're a, I'm calling it problem child. That makes it sound, I don't know, that doesn't sound right, but the bad performers.
Sara Canaday (32:04.672)
Yeah, I think it does change because, you know, let's say when you say a bad performer, let's say it's on producing widgets or meeting their metrics, you know, at this point, your ultimate responsibility is to get that person to perform the standard of the job, right? What the expectations are. You're not at the level of trying to help them do more work that they enjoy.
Sara Canaday (32:33.724)
let's just get the first level done, right? And then once that's done and they've shown they can maintain that level of performance, then you work to find out what's under their hood, what they enjoy, what would inspire them, what would get them more involved, that sort of thing.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (32:56.246)
You know, while we're on this topic, I love that we, we went here because my immediate thought also is at what point as a leader, like on the one hand, you to be a good leader, you are being, uh, you're there, they're looking up to you. You're helping them evolve their career. You're, you're serving a serving manager. A serving leader is a good one that's helping them evolve. And at some point, there is a decision where maybe this person is not a good addition to this team.
But the process of removing someone from a team is not a short process. Generally, you can't just, you know, oftentimes you're building an HR file or you're documenting performance and then there's a personal improvement plan of some kind oftentimes. And like, so how do you juggle the line of removing someone and still being a good leader? What do you say to that manager who's now trying to do that?
Sara Canaday (33:53.256)
Are they doing it with the same person you mean, or juggling that with their other team members?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (34:01.73)
Well, they're they've got multiple people on their team and one of them is a is the problem and now they're looking at. I think the organization would be better if this person was not on the team. So they're starting to move in that direction. What's
Sara Canaday (34:16.328)
Yeah, you know, it's funny because I look back to when I was in corporate and because I was in banking and insurance, they are among the most traditional businesses.
Sara Canaday (34:31.516)
Sometimes they're run by very conservative leaders who were leading in decades where you weren't candid, right? You weren't candid with your employees. You didn't sit down and have an honest, genuine conversation. Everything was, every word had to be, you know,
pass legal approval, everything you said or wanted to say to the employee had to check the dots and make sure that it was a legal, proper legal way that wouldn't get the company in trouble moving forward.
Sara Canaday (35:31.276)
is weeding out, right? And so in order for you to be a great leader, to me, you have to have the genuine conversation with somebody and you have to be able to say, it's clear to me that there's not a fit here. Or starting out first, what are you sensing here? I know that you've been struggling to achieve these results. What is that?
mean to you, what's bubbling up for you. And try to have a candid conversation to get him or her to see that it may not be the right fit. Right? And that you just wanna help that person be successful, whether it's on your team, with your company, or somewhere else. And sometimes that just means coming to the conclusion that there's a disconnect, there's just not a fit.
And I don't think we do that enough, but I can tell you that I would have never done that at my corporation because I wasn't given, I wasn't trained that way either. Right?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (36:43.922)
Yeah. I mean, a lot in the in the bigger organizations, if you're going to start making moves like that, you basically sort of have to hand it over to HR because you're the threat of a lawsuit is real. And so it's all got to be all formal. All of the human comes out of it. Everything is very much supervised or recorded or documented or paperwork or Yeah, which
Sara Canaday (37:08.696)
But I think that there is a point at which, you know, if you're not on your third corrective action, I can see if you've done one or two corrective actions, you're down that road. If you're on the first, maybe leading into your second potentially, I don't know why you couldn't go to HR and say, look, I wanna have this candid conversation. I care about this person.
I don't want to just do things behind his or her back and start documenting and keeping my notes to be fair to this person, to keep their dignity.
Will you allow me to just have a very candid conversation to see where they're at right now? What are they thinking about this role and whether or not it's a fit for them? And I've seen more often than not, people get permission. And believe it or not, the person that is spoken to candidly is appreciative and comes to their own conclusion that it's not a right fit much of the time.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:18.102)
Yeah. Let them arrive at it themselves. So in that scenario, while we're on this, good to great now. So you're the supervisor of somebody who's going through a performance improvement plan. It sounds like a good leader would be having an honest conversation and a great leader would be asking them to have a two way conversation.
Sara Canaday (38:43.292)
Yeah, I have a feeling even a good leader is following company protocol, which means they're probably not having a very authentic conversation. They're just following the protocol, right? And in their mind, they're doing what they're supposed to.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (38:59.039)
Got it. So good to great leader. Let's, let's shift our perspective. Now we went from the bottom and then we were in the middle and now senior C level executives. Now you're looking down on the leaders that are coming up. Who do we promote? Who do we, and we've already said metrics. You've, you've made that one clear, Sarah. We got that one as far as you're, but you gotta have your good, you're by the numbers, but then what's
Brian Nelson-Palmer (39:28.414)
What's the difference between good and great from the C- level looking down?
Sara Canaday (39:34.536)
Well, just by way of painting a vivid picture, let's say you have an executive in a meeting, in a project meeting, where one of your staff members is there, and that staff member is able to talk pretty articulately about a project or is willing to express an opinion based on their level of expertise.
That raises eyebrows, right? Executives start, they're like, if that's the kind of stuff I see out of a leader's team, that's getting my attention. Because that means that leader must encourage in their own team setting that kind of conversation. Or for whatever reason, their team actually cares and wants to contribute, right?
Sara Canaday (40:31.3)
It says a lot about the leader, right? So just the observation of what is it about your team or does your team just stay super siloed, close to the vest, puts their head down, gets their work done so that nobody will bother them, right? It's those kinds of things are noticed even if people don't, leaders don't think they are. You know, I think the other thing that a...
a higher level boss looks for is how entrepreneurial you are as a leader. Right? Are you not only meeting your metrics, not only have people that seem to be loyal and engaged, but are you pushing back? Right? Are you asking, why do we always do it this way? What if we did it another way? What if we stopped doing this altogether? Would anybody notice? You are really...
starting to take things on as if you care and you care more than for your immediate team. You're asking questions on a broader scale, right? They're looking for that leader to be very situationally fluent, right? So let's say they come to an executive meeting and they present, but can they read the room?
Can they sense that they're going a little bit too much in the weeds and they need to pull back? Can they sense that they need to go ahead and open it up for conversation? Do they sense that the conversation can use a little levity? It's getting a little tense. You know what I mean? It's so, yeah. And I know that's asking a lot, right? We're painting a picture of somebody who walks on water, but
Sara Canaday (42:26.804)
If you have all those levels, that's what you aspire to is to be able to be that kind of leader.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (42:37.706)
Yeah. What about, I mean, there's always the, we talked earlier about chain of command and I feel like looking at it from this way again, like you, what, what are your thoughts on? There are some times where if you are the, if you're the senior level executive and you're looking down and someone from one of your report's teams, so two levels or more below you,
is now raising something to you.
Is that, it seems like that would be a rare occasion and if they do it well, that would reflect good on the manager. But for the most part, it's probably not, it should be coming through the manager. Is that, does that track?
Sara Canaday (43:23.284)
No, I think you're right. I mean, unless there is a by design event where that boss's boss is asking for and is inviting that kind of conversation, typically, yes, it should follow some sort of chain of command. And as soon as I got that out of my mouth, I just can see this generation is, that's a really hard thing to swallow.
Because in their mind, you know, what? You know, that person puts their pants on just like I do. I can't go straight to them and have a conversation. It's very foreign to later generations. But it does, you know, if I were to compel to somebody that's thinking that way, I guess I would say, look, it shows a monocle of respect. If everybody went to the boss's boss, they would get nothing done.
Sara Canaday (44:23.068)
There has to be, you know, it's just like when you have external customers, you want to have a central point where all your customer complaints come in. I mean, that's what we aim for so that there's one point of contact. It makes it more efficient and it makes us look a little better from the company side because we wanna make sure everybody's saying the same thing. It's no different, right? It's sort of similar.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (44:51.838)
You know, and you're saying this, I'm almost envisioning like, oh, okay, so then the scenario that would be good is if there's an issue that needs to be raised to the boss's boss, and the employee brings it to their manager, their manager then sets up the meeting with the boss's boss, and they've had a discussion beforehand, and then lets the employee bring it up to the manager and do the speaking in the meeting.
offers the employee person under you the chance to look, to brief up and look good. You look good because your employee is bringing an important issue and you knew it was going to be, so that's good. And up here, the C level is looking down going, oh, that's a really important point. And look at this person from this person's team. They've got a good team. And so it's almost like everybody wins if you, I guess if you're aware of what they're going to levels above ahead of time.
don't get in the way of your employees who are who want to go two levels up as long as you know what's going to happen. Or I don't know is that does that does that make any sense? Maybe I'm just I hope.
Sara Canaday (46:00.428)
No, it actually makes great sense. And I have to admit, I don't know that I've heard that as a strategy. Typically, when you go to your manager, you share the idea with the manager and the manager shares it with the boss's boss, or his boss, and then his boss goes, right? And then it comes back down, right? What was their response? And you share that if you're a good manager.
Sara Canaday (46:30.26)
But I love your idea that, you know, what if we live in a world where, and it probably does happen at some companies, where you could go to your boss or boss's boss and say, hey, I have an employee who has a great idea and rather than me pass it along, I'd love for you to hear directly from them. Are you open to that? Do you have the time? And, you know, it'll depend on the culture of the organization, it'll depend on the person.
Sara Canaday (47:00.328)
You know, let's face it, the person may say no, because they don't have time and that's legit. The person may say no, because they come from, you know, they've been trained and grew up in a very, you know, no, just you let me know what it is and I'll respond.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:17.814)
Right, that hierarchy, that hierarchy thing. Chain of command, the chain of command thing. You know, I'm almost thinking that's the difference between a good and a great for the senior leader too, is like, are you willing to listen to vetted messages from levels below the person right under you? And how do you respond to those? Do you, oh, I didn't tell you, you know, like that's a big one. And man.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (47:46.342)
Oh, Sarah, can we, I don't know, do you break? This is a kind of a tangential note we were talking earlier about communicating through your man. If you're a C level, a senior manager up here and you're communicating down, you talked about, you had a boss who made sure it was in your notes that you relayed the information down. And in today's day and age, the thing that blows my mind is why don't you have some sort of video recorded video or Email or talk directly to the troops, not just the people right under them. What are your thoughts?
Sara Canaday (48:48.832)
Well, so, okay, I can make a case for why not. Because this is part of what you see a leader is made of. So you want to know that your leaders can step up to the game and they can share this kind of information. And you want that leader's team to see them as a leader. So if we constantly...
Sara Canaday (49:17.472)
turn around a laptop and then just hit play, we don't own that message. We aren't stepping in as their leader to sort of translate what that means for them in particular. Does that make sense? Now, if it's something like, you know, we're changing the work from home policy across the...
Sara Canaday (49:44.14)
Yeah, absolutely. You can do that in a video and then have the manager there to answer questions as it relates to you in particular or if you're changing your health policy, your health plan's changing. But it's interesting that you bring this up because I am on a nonprofit board and we recently had a conversation where there is going to be some important announcements.
Sara Canaday (50:14.176)
And this very thing came up about a video and then, you know, making sure that the board chair and CEO are available to if there's any questions. And I'm the one that said, wait a minute, what are we going to make the leaders go hide in their offices? No, they need to be front and center. They need to own that information so that their staff sees them as a leader.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (50:37.77)
Yeah. So, so what is I want to then the last thing I want to circle back to then is earlier you mentioned the boss that used to renew, review, renew, review your notes on did you share the information that what's paint a paint a picture of good to good and great leader in that case? Like how are you inspecting what you expect? How are you getting
making sure that the message gets relayed? in a way that's a good leader or a great leader, not the nag that you made it seem like this manager was for you.
Sara Canaday (51:14.036)
Yeah, I mean, I think that...
Sara Canaday (51:18.1)
The very act itself of checking the minutes is what missed, you know, that misses the mark because that goes to, did you inform them or did you educate them? And what you really want to know is how are you bringing that vision to life? So I, for example, had a boss once that used to ask me, hey, is it okay if I stop into your staff meeting? And I think that was great because he wanted to see not only
Sara Canaday (51:47.512)
Am I sharing it, but how am I? Did I, you know, I tell leaders this all the time, bring a prop, right? Bring a pen and talk about the analogies of how this pen works and this new product that we're gonna launch or deliver, right? Or, you know, get up on the whiteboard and start drawing, you know.
the earth, the moon, and the sun, and talk about how these products are actually future-oriented, so they're pointing towards the sun. What kind of, how hard do you work to make this relatable to your team, and how it affects their work?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:34.346)
Yep. Gosh, that makes so much sense.
Sara Canaday (52:37.544)
And you know what's interesting is I have to admit, I don't necessarily find myself very creative. I'm much more analytical and I'm always, you know, let's be efficient. So I'm thinking, yeah, right. I have the time to be imaginative. Well, now we don't have an excuse. Cause guess what? We have AI as a leader. You can actually prompt AI and say, I'm a leader of a team. I need to pass down.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (52:50.208)
Right?
Sara Canaday (53:07.508)
This, our new business objectives, here they are. How can I explain these in a way that paints a picture or that uses an analogy or a story? Boom, you would not believe what AI gives back.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (53:21.67)
Wow, there is a hack for you right there. Sarah delivering the AI hacks. Oh, I like it. Oh, that's good. Well, Sarah, I know you and I could probably, I mean, I'm full of questions and we could go on all day between our stories and we're so aligned with our Venn diagram and the stuff we talk about. So thank you very much for joining me today. I wanted to ask, what is this topic in leadership? Clearly you're very passionate about it. Is there a personal story or what does this mean for you personally?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (53:51.278)
Where does this come from for you?
Sara Canaday (53:53.16)
You know, when you first asked me sort of how I made the transition or what made me different, and I talked about the fact that, you know, I'd held all those positions, but I've never thought of this before. I think the other thing that makes me different and makes me have a passion is I was uber observant of how my leaders were with me and my peers.
And I was struck by the impact they could have on me. And that really clung to me, right? And I have to admit, a lot of that is, I would say to myself, I would never do that if I was a leader. I mean, you know, I worked at really big organizations and I, in some cases felt like a number. And in some cases have leaders that had
Sara Canaday (54:53.02)
no self-awareness and they would do things that just, I mean, made their employees feel just like, you know, robots. And so I think that's kind of where this whole thing stemmed from and where the passion stemmed from.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (55:16.126)
Yep, absolutely. And you will definitely, you, just like you said, you learn a lot from the way not to do it from managers, as much as you learn the way to do it. Like I, I definitely have so many examples of being held back and knowing that I never want to hold people back because I was held back and it was awful. Like there was, Oh, so that question earlier about what do you do when they can't replace you? And then you're still like, Oh my God, that was a
Brian Nelson-Palmer (55:42.77)
Oh, I live that it was terrible. And so I will never forget those managers in a really bad way. Oh, I hear you. Gosh. Well, Sarah, here's what I love. I love that you're doing this thing that you learned through the years. And I love the stories and the experience that you're sharing from both on the personal level, but also on the level that you teach this stuff and you've worked with executives who also face this, too. So that.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (56:12.322)
that comparison of personal stories and lessons learned from others together makes a really powerful combination, I think. So I think it's awesome what you're doing. And thank you very much for coming and sharing. I was fascinated with this conversation of the difference between good and great. And I feel like you did share some. We took some awesome takeaways from this thing today. So thank you very much.
Sara Canaday (56:30.784)
Well, good. It was enjoyable on my end too.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (56:34.846)
What is now we wanted to make sure if folks who want to keep in touch with you and things that they should check out with you share that right now.
Sara Canaday (56:42.28)
Yeah, first and foremost, I would say LinkedIn. I'm on all social media, but I spend the majority of my time on LinkedIn. So you can follow me on LinkedIn. I have a newsletter on LinkedIn. I also have probably about 15, 16 courses on LinkedIn learning. So you can go check out my courses on LinkedIn learning. And yes, those are my primary.
Brian Nelson-Palmer (57:08.59)
Keep in touch and I will make sure I'll have the links to all those in the episode notes for you. So you can just, if you're listening right now, just jump down there and, and check out the notes section. You can, you can see those links right there to check out Sarah. So and for you tuning in two opportunities for you. The first one is, do you have a friend or colleague who is working their way up in leadership? And if you do, would you share this episode with them right now?
Brian Nelson-Palmer (57:36.074)
And the reason I say that is because this episode specifically, right, because sometimes people recommend podcasts and like, Oh, check out productivity Gladiator, check out these different podcasts and you go and there's a whole bunch of episodes. But the experience of sharing this one episode with that one person and then even having a little, even if it's via text message, like, Hey, have a little conversation about this. I thought about you because do you remember that terrible boss or that great boss that we had and start that?
That keep in touch thing that can happen because of Sarah and I's conversation today is so cool. And I know that Sarah and I both would really appreciate if you would share this thing with someone who would get some good impact from this, because this is why we do this. So thank you for that. And obviously I appreciate the likes and the follows and the, and the subscriptions and the reviews and that kind of stuff on this show. So you can join the email list too. I have that for you, but more importantly, I just, I love sharing Productivity Gladiator with you.
So that's a wrap.