Why Smart People Still Have Bad Productivity Habits & How to Finally Change Them - with courtney clark
Courtney Clark breaks down how to "supersize" your goals so you can stop beating your head against a brick wall and start being truly adaptable to change.
We’ve all been told since we were kids that "quitters never win." If you’ve ever found yourself white-knuckling a project that clearly isn't working, or if you feel like a failure for hitting 95% of a goal instead of 100%, I want you to hear this episode.
I sat down with resilience expert Courtney Clark to talk about why our obsession with "grit" is actually making us less productive. And spoiler alert: the answer isn't just "trying harder." It’s exactly the opposite. The secret to surviving a high-change environment is learning how to pivot with purpose.
Courtney and I totally geek out on the psychological traps that keep smart people stuck. She dropped this incredible concept about how our brains flip into an "implementation mindset" that turns us into the Energizer Bunny—we just keep going and going, even when we should be re-evaluating. We also dive into the "Peak-End Effect" and why we tend to remember the highs and lows of a project while completely forgetting the unglamorous "slog" of the daily grind that actually leads to success.
We get super practical, too. We break down the difference between a "plan" and a "goal" and why your rigid checklists might actually be holding you back. Courtney shares her framework for turning "ABC goals" (Achievement, Behavior, and Comparison) into "VIP goals" (Values, Ideals, and Purpose). Plus, we have a great discussion about "parallel plans"—why having multiple paths to the same objective is far more powerful than just having a backup plan.
If you want to stop feeling burned out by your to-do list and figure out exactly how to build "growth resilience" in your career, this is the conversation you need.
The Video
The Audio/Podcast
References In This Episode
Courtney Clark – CourtneyClark.com – Courtney’s home for research, speaking, and resources focused on building growth resilience. Courtney Clark on LinkedIn – Connect with Courtney professionally.
Key Resources:
CourtneyClark.com – The main hub for Courtney’s consulting and her insights on navigating change.
The Shortcut– Courtney’s latest book detailing why we get stuck on the wrong paths and how to find a better way forward.
The "Implementation Mindset" – Courtney’s core concept that once we start a task, our brains switch from evaluation to "Energizer Bunny" mode, making it hard to stop even if the plan is failing.
Brian’s Resources:
Worth Your Time– Brian's signature session on calculating the $/hour value of your time to identify which habits are worth your investment.
Plan Your Week In Advance – Brian’s core strategy for creating a "parallel plan" for your life and ensuring your calendar reflects your true priorities.
Tools & Techniques:
VIP Goals – Courtney’s technique for "supersizing" objectives by shifting from Achievement-based targets to Values, Ideals, and Purpose.
Parallel Planning – The framework for running multiple different strategies simultaneously toward the same goal, rather than relying on a singular "backup plan."
Calm in Chaos – Brian's 5-step process to successfully prioritize and stay focused when everything on your to-do list feels "urgent."
Concepts & Frameworks:
The Grit Trap – Why over-indexing on perseverance can actually backfire, leading to "tunnel vision" and a refusal to pivot away from a broken strategy.
The Peak-End Effect – The psychological phenomenon where we remember the intense highs and lows of a project but forget the long, unglamorous "slog" of the daily grind.
Goals vs. Plans – The critical distinction between your ultimate destination (the goal) and the specific, often fragile path you’ve chosen to get there (the plan).
Goal Commitment Scarcity – The reality that your energy and resources are finite; every "yes" to a failing plan is a "no" to a better opportunity.
Courtney Clark and Brian Nelson-Palmer
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Productivity and Resilience
02:49 The Importance of Adaptability Over Grit
05:36 The Gap Between Knowledge and Action
07:24 Understanding Resource Management
10:13 Finding the Balance Between Grit and Adaptability
12:56 Strategies for Effective Goal Management
15:40 The Role of Leaders in Supporting Adaptability
18:25 Evaluating Goals and Resources
21:10 Conclusion and Key Takeaways
26:16 Supersizing Your Goals
29:00 Productivity Habits and Inbox Zero
36:42 Flexibility in Achieving Goals
39:18 Understanding Bad Productivity Habits
44:53 Finding Your Super Sized Goal
Today’s Guest
Courtney Clark
Resilience Researcher, Author, and Keynote Speaker
Courtney Clark is a globally recognized resilience researcher and change strategist who specializes in helping high-performers adapt faster and achieve more. She is a fierce advocate for "growth resilience"—the ability to shift away from the "grit trap" that often keeps smart people stuck in failing plans long past their expiration date. Courtney is deeply passionate about helping professionals navigate massive disruption with clarity, teaching them to "supersize" their goals to reach their ultimate objectives even when life doesn't go according to plan.
Known as the "luckiest unlucky person in the world," Courtney’s expertise is forged from both rigorous data-driven research and her extraordinary personal journey as a four-time 9/11-related cancer survivor and brain aneurysm survivor. She has built two successful businesses and authored several acclaimed books, including her most recent, ReVisionary Thinking: When You Have to Change Your Plan to Reach Your Goal. Her work has been featured on CNN, ABC, Forbes, and USA Today, and she has delivered her practical, high-energy insights to Fortune 100 organizations like Nike, Google, and Dell.
What sets Courtney apart is her absolute refusal to offer "toxic positivity" or cliché platitudes. Instead, she provides a unique blend of "content-based motivation" that balances left-brain research with right-brain storytelling. When she isn't transforming organizational cultures on international stages, Courtney is an active philanthropist who has served as the president of the Austin chapter of the National Speakers Association and on the board of trustees for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society. She truly believes that true resilience is not about unrelenting optimism, but the strategic ability to rewrite your plan to meet your goal.
Connect with Courtney:
LinkedIn: Courtney Clark
Website: CourtneyClark.com
New Book: The Shortcut
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About The Creator/Host: I’m Brian. At age 4, I was diagnosed with insulin dependent (type 1) diabetes and told that my life was going to be 10-20 years shorter than everyone else. As a kid I took time for granted, but now as an adult, time is the most precious thing that I have. After spending a career hands-on in the trenches as a leader at all levels, I now train Productivity Gladiators to level up their careers. Graduates wield superpowers in time management, practical leadership, communication, & productivity. If what you’ve seen here intrigues you, reach out, let’s chat!
“Time is the currency of your life, spend it wisely.”
Transcript
Brian Nelson - Palmer (00:06)
I'm Brian Nelson Palmer. On this show, I share personal practical productivity skills that will make you more productive and advance your career. And in this episode, we're talking about why smart people still have bad productivity habits and how to finally change them. And with me on the show today is Courtney Clark, who is a resilience author and speaker who specializes in changing
and finally making that change and being resilient. Courtney, thanks so much for joining me on the show today.
Courtney Clark (00:36)
Yeah, I'm so glad to be here, Brian.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (00:38)
And for those folks who don't, who aren't familiar with you or haven't heard of you before, talk about how you're relevant to our topic today.
Courtney Clark (00:45)
So I am not a productivity expert. I put all of that on your shoulders. My research is about resilience and adapting to change. so I got into this field. I am actually a four time 911 related cancer survivor.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (01:06)
four times.
Courtney Clark (01:07)
Four times. yeah, because of my turns out that 9-11 exposure, the cancer keeps coming back. But because of the cancer, they found the brain aneurysm that was about to hemorrhage.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (01:19)
Mmm.
Courtney Clark (01:20)
Yeah, so I cared a lot about resilience and I started studying it and at first, you you think like resilience is really all about positivity, that attitude. And the more I looked at it, the more I was like, I don't think it's really about positivity. I think it's about adaptability. So now I work with organizations like help them be more adaptable to change.
But what we've discovered in our research, and we researched teams, we just completed another research study of over thousand working Americans, we're finding that this idea of grit, you know, never give up, you can do anything you put your mind to, it's making us less flexible and less adaptable to change.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (02:06)
Interesting.
Courtney Clark (02:07)
Did anybody in your life ever teach you never give up?
Brian Nelson - Palmer (02:10)
Well, I mean, as you're saying that, going, yeah, I think there's a lot of people that lean really hard into that, that set your mind to something and you can do anything and that. And I think that's really true and it's important for kids to learn. And I think that's a really important message. And where does being flexible and adapting to change and remembering to change come in?
Courtney Clark (02:31)
Okay, well, I mean, think you're right. Perseverance is incredibly important. We want children to persevere, to be persistent, not give up at the first sign or the slightest sign of an obstacle. But we also have limited resources in the world.
And so the way this relates to productivity is that if we keep spending our limited resources, our time, our money, our health, people resources on beaten our fists against a brick wall, then we're not going to have those resources to spend where they might pay off better research and motivation tells us that goal commitment is a finite resource.
That means we have to be choosy about our goals.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (03:18)
Absolutely. I'm having two competing thoughts right along this topic that I'm looking forward to our conversation. The first one is that there's that whole strengths finder 2.0 idea where you find people's strengths and as a leader, you push them to use more of their strengths. And then that contrasts with the idea that you have a performance review and you tell everybody how they need to improve. And so then people spend all this time.
trying to bring up the things that they're not good at instead of being even more dominant of the things that they're great at. And I think that there's an adaptability and a resilience piece in there that like that juxtaposition, that comparison right there is like, that's a thing that people fake.
Courtney Clark (04:00)
100 % I would respond with the the meme pork and all those dose right? There's there's some really good research that says that They were talking about children actually and they were saying that so much of what we do To kids who are struggling is we buffer those weaknesses But what they found was really the right balance was to to an extent to build up where the weakness
was right get get a kid who's failing not failing. But then back off. Don't try to take a kid who's failing to an a kid, get them passing the class, but then lean into their skills and abilities. Because then that's what's going to get them into college and get them scholarships like get you know, getting them from a failing student to a slightly better than mediocre student.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (04:31)
Yeah.
Courtney Clark (04:56)
is probably not going to have as big of an impact on their lives as getting them to where they can succeed. They're not failing, but then letting them invest in what makes them special and unique, what lights them up and turns them on. And that's what's going to drive them forward. So kind of in that same way, what I want people to do is balance grit resilience with what I'm calling growth resilience.
and growth resilience, that's that adapting, pivoting, figuring out a new way to do our work when the old ways of working aren't working anymore.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (05:36)
Yeah, you know the the other thing that comes to mind on this topic too is that I like with productivity gladiator. I have systems and tools and resources that solve the problems like it's it's one of those things where from from where I said I I hand you the solution to your problem. And then people go back to their office and they go back to doing what they're doing and they don't use the solution to the problem.
Courtney Clark (05:57)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (06:04)
It's one of the recent episodes, if you go back in the show, we talked about planning your week in advance. Planning your week in advance, 94 % of people know that planning your week in advance is a productivity superpower. It's a great thing to do. And less than 1 % of people actually do it. That's the piece. So anyway, that's what I'm stoked about for what you're talking about.
Courtney Clark (06:28)
we are all very brilliant at solving other people's problems. Right? I mean, I have girlfriends where I'm like, just let me pick your dates for you. Okay, it would go so much better. Yeah, we are we are brilliant at solving other people's problems that that is certainly a thing. I think the big gap that people need to be aware of here.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (06:34)
I mean.
True. Yep.
Courtney Clark (06:57)
is that what we found in our research is there is a massive gap between what we know in theory to be true, and what we're willing to do about it. So much like you say, we may know that we should plan our week in advance, but we don't do it. Think of all the things in life that that is true of I use the analogy like, I want a clean house. I do not want to clean my house. I want to be stronger.
so busy. I can't go to the gym. Right? I want to eat healthy. I want that cheesecake. I want to save money. I want to go on vacation. But we are aware of the gap.
We know that the gap is there. And even when we make the wrong choice, we can tell ourselves, Brian, I'm not using that productivity tool because I'm a special snowflake. You don't understand my situation. And I you know, I this this thing happened and it got in my way and I didn't do it. Right? I didn't clean my house because I know that I want to clean house more than I want to clean my house. I am aware of that gap. What we found in this research about
change and grit is that people are not aware of the gap. 98. something percent of people loved the idea of being adaptable. They understood that in order to be successful, we sometimes have to change our plans to reach our goals. They were all in on adaptability as a concept.
And then when we asked about the behaviors of adaptability, things like changing a strategic plan when we aren't meeting our benchmarks, letting go of goals that are no longer possible. We found that all told 64 % of working Americans said no.
Quitters never win. I'm just gonna keep doing the same thing. And if I work hard, it's bound to work out because that's what I was taught. That's a lot of people. So we were all in on the idea of adaptability as a concept, but not as a behavior. We think that because we feel okay with change, that we're gonna choose change when it's an option.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (09:22)
Yeah. And you know, for you, for you listening, think you can look around right now really recently and see exactly what you're talking about right now. Courtney in action with who is using AI in their job. Look around your workplace because that's changed. That's something different. That's a pivot from the, the, the way you've always done things. And this is a productivity habit that will change your life. It will.
It's a huge thing. How many people, no, that doesn't apply to me, ignore it. How many people they like, I don't really understand how that gets to me. And instead of like adaptable, look into it, find ways to getting on that bandwagon. know, the big phrase from the very beginning, the big worry and the thing that comes up is,
AI isn't going to take your job. People who using AI to do your job will take your job and that that idea and yet still some folks don't pivot. So that that's really interesting and that kind of sets the stage for recording where I want to go, which is OK. Why do smart capable people who know exactly what they should be doing still struggle with bad productivity habits? Things that aren't serving them like what why?
Courtney Clark (10:41)
Let me offer you a lens though to what you just said. Okay, because you pointed out like people know they should be using AI. I don't know that that's a complete sentence though, Brian. So I want to push back because yes.
Yes, AI can make you more productive. I just saw some research a week before last that was showing how overall, while there's a lot of AI that makes you more productive. Many people who use AI are finding that they're going down the rabbit hole, and they're getting like caught up and now I'm going to do this and now I'm going to do this and it's like it's like the new version of cat videos.
So every beauty has a beast. And I absolutely think AI tools can make you more productive, but I think AI tools can make you less productive. And you have to figure out what, where to invest your resources. And that's kind of what I'm talking about is that resources are limited. I came at this research because I literally realized like my life time.
might be limited. But everybody's resources are limited. And so we have to be incredibly smart about what resources we're investing where so to the extent that AI can shave some time off of this, but but you have to also be very strategic. Because you could also waste a lot of time or a lot of resources training your people or all these things on AI. And then that wasn't the right path.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (12:18)
Agreed. That makes sense.
Courtney Clark (12:19)
Yeah, I think I think any I think as a blanket statement, we just we have to be careful with that. And that's part of what this research is teaching me is like, of course grit is good. Wait, but we can overuse it. And then we're like, No, make this work out because quitters never win.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (12:31)
Yeah.
So I want to know then what is the balance because I grew up in the, know, stick with it grit. You can outwork them. Like I came from that upbringing in that life. So what
And then the flip side to that is the totally adaptable where you don't stick with anything and you just keep shifting and changing. And, and so now there's clearly a balance in there. So Courtney, where is that line?
Courtney Clark (13:08)
So the balance really is, and what I talk about in the research is that a lot of times we have a strategy for we know that we need a strategy once we've hit a brick wall, right? If you've hit a brick wall, if you got rejected from every single job, right? That's a brick wall or every single college, like that's a brick wall. And then we're like, ⁓ I need a new strategy.
What I'm gonna tell you is we need a strategy before that. We need to start implementing a strategy on the front end while we're still on the path. And this path may turn out to work out great, but we need a strategy so that we're paying attention to any potential signs. Because you're right, we've been culturally conditioned to ignore the signs and just be like, you know, I'm not gonna quit.
and ignore all the signs. So here's how you don't ignore the signs. You can start by doing an inventory, I'll call it, about what resources you have to put towards your goal. So resources, of course, are time and money, support system, mentorship, all of that. Put that in your list of resources. Then you wanna do some research.
What resources does it typically take? Anything that's a number. So if it's like money, time, those are all numbers. I recommend a range because so like if I asked you, okay, Brian, how long does it take to get an undergraduate degree? Right, that's the common answer, four years. We all know some overachiever who did it in three. And you know somebody who took the scenic route and did it in five.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (14:47)
four years.
Courtney Clark (14:56)
So if you only account for four years, you might find yourself being like, ⁓ wait, I didn't know that that, so put a range in there rather than be specific. So then you're gonna look at those two columns, right? What resources does it take? What resources do I have? I also recommend that you start with the resources do I have first.
The reason is our brains can do a little thing if I write down the resources that it takes. And then I write down the resources that I have. Yeah, we all imagine ourselves being like, I mean, I don't really have that yet. But like, I probably will. But that's what it if we start by like putting what you have on paper, so then you compare
Brian Nelson - Palmer (15:40)
That's true. Yeah
Courtney Clark (15:46)
right? Obviously, you're gonna compare Do I have what it takes? Do I want to give what it takes? This one I learned I have a friend Amber so we met when we were late 20s. By the time we were 30. Amber was just that person who was doing it all. Absolute rock star. She has she was married. She had two kids. She just finished her master's degree. She was on two nonprofit boards of directors C suite at work. Just amazing. And I was like,
Amber, how do you do it all? And I was expecting a productivity answer. I really thought she was gonna tell me something about time management, like a great calendar or something. And the answer that she gave me changed my relationship to resource management forever. She said every yes is a no to something else.
And I may not even know what I'm saying no to until that commitment is already made. So I always think about Amber, just that idea that like every pursuit has a price. And you have to understand what you're paying or you end up paying double, right? If all we see is the pursuit and not the price, then we're not gonna be very smart.
So we can be unstoppable, but we're not gonna be very smart. And so the final thing that I really recommend of like, how do you know, how do you decide if you should keep walking this path or not, is that you set benchmarks.
So you know, benchmarks, that's like, okay, am I am I meeting the smaller goals along the way that tell me that I should continue on doing this. And a lot of people will say like, I don't want to set benchmarks. I'll know if I'm being successful. Or they'll say, you know, benchmarks. Well, I can set those later. I don't really know what good benchmarks would be until I'm already working towards it.
but your brain is not actually great at doing that. Once we start pursuing a goal, your brain flips from evaluative mindset into implementation mindset. And it's really hard to stop implementation mindset. Once you're in it, it's like, that Energizer bunny just wants to keep going and going.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (18:06)
So, Courtney, that kind of brings up a good point for me, which is one of the things I've noticed about myself or the adaptations I had to make along this line is I was raised in the go, go, go, don't quit, persevere, mentality. Yeah. And what I noticed about me.
Courtney Clark (18:25)
of Americans were.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (18:28)
Yeah. And what I noticed about myself as I got older is that that wasn't serving me a lot of the times. It wasn't serving me in my relationships, in my love life, in my friends, in my career, in my, it like, it wasn't serving me. And so the thing, two things happened. First, I realized at work that I needed to leverage my boss and I needed to come up for air at some point. Cause I equate to like, I'm really good at putting my head down and
power through like I can power through with the best of them and what I need to do is have checkpoints where I come up for air and look around and go, okay, boss, I came this far all the way to here. Am I still even going in the right direction or did I like do I need to redirect and so professionally that was my and that sounds kind of like the milestones and what you're talking about with like.
Courtney Clark (19:22)
100
% that's the good of benchmarks is like, okay, am I still making the progress that I thought I was making? Am I still making the progress that a typical person would be making? Does this still make sense? And if we don't set those benchmarks while we're still in evaluative mindset, when we're like, not quite as committed yet, and we're able to, you know, smartly evaluate ourselves, if we don't have those benchmarks to sort of
run up against, we're never going to stop. We're going to convince ourselves. But if I just we found in the research, so we asked salespeople, we said, if if you are more than halfway through the year, but less than halfway to your goal, what do you do? And they said, Keep doing the same thing.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (20:12)
Carter.
Courtney Clark (20:15)
That's, mean, that's what so much of the research showed us is that everybody goes like, well, I'll just put my head down.
and is work a little harder. And and that over and over again was the story versus really need to reconsider if this makes sense. So yes, we want to be able to put our heads down and push through because sometimes that is the right answer. But it's not always the right answer. If you think about the people who for whom hard work paid off Olympians, right, the people at the top of their game, they push
Brian Nelson - Palmer (20:33)
Yeah.
Courtney Clark (20:53)
through and they worked and it paid off and at the same time they were working really hard on their very specialized skill there were other things that they had to let fall by the wayside because resources are limited so they did those things but they didn't do other things
So many people right top of their game professionally never married or their kids don't speak to them or you know, I mean, that's when you look at what I'm saying about the resources being limited, it kind of pans out. And so
Brian Nelson - Palmer (21:18)
Right. Yeah.
Courtney Clark (21:29)
we need to have a system to be able to do both. Of course we want to dig in. Because there are a lot of situations where that matters and it's going to pay off. But we also have to be able to branch out when we hit that obstacle.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (21:45)
Now, what if you're a leader of a team then? If you are the pet, you are watching somebody like me who's work, work, work, work. And then at least I come up for air and I ask the question. But like, if you're a supervisor, you're calling them milestones or benchmarks. what does it look like to be a good leader who supports their people, doesn't get in the way, but also has those benchmarks or those moments? it just as simple as
a weekly one on one where you ask them how they're doing or like, is there more to it? What does it paint me a picture? What does that look like?
Courtney Clark (22:19)
Well, anything with leading people is probably never that simple. But what we found that was really interesting is that leaders on the one hand, are really good at seeing the big picture leaders often get more information than their reports do. So they were they reported feeling like they understood the big picture and the need for change better. And
Brian Nelson - Palmer (22:25)
Fair enough.
Courtney Clark (22:46)
leaders reported being grittier. And when leaders were confronted with what do you do? Do you change? Leaders were less likely to abandon a plan that wasn't working. and I guess it makes sense. Because if you're a leader, like, maybe that was your plan. If that was a leader, your success might be judged on how well we stick to the strategic plan.
But what that means is that leaders can sometimes be the worst culprits of holding their people back from change. So we found a huge opportunity there in leaders really being willing to, again, strike that balance between maybe we do need to invest more resources and work a little harder, or maybe we need to evaluate.
And there's not a single right answer, but it's going to come in that resource evaluation, those benchmarks. But leaders could really stand across the board to do a better job of considering, is this the right goal? I know it's in the strategic plan. But is this the right goal? Or if we're struggling, if everybody right, if the same one person is always struggling,
It's probably that person. But if everybody's struggling, if people who often aren't struggling are struggling, that tells me it's probably the goal. And maybe that's not the right goal, or maybe the goal needs to be reevaluated. And that's where I talk about, so we've got, right, we talked about the strategy for digging in, that we wanna make sure if we're digging in, we're digging in the right place, that we're evaluating our resources and setting those benchmarks. But if we hit a roadblock,
there's another strategy that we can use. And this is what I call the shortcut. So I mentioned like, this goal isn't the right goal. The first thing that I think people should do if they sense that they're digging in on the wrong goal is really look at that goal and see if it's the right size.
Because a lot of times, if you have to give up on a goal, the problem is that the goal was too small.
Did you think I was gonna say too big? Yes, I saw your face. No.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (25:00)
Yeah.
I was ready for too small. Yes. OK. Ready for too big. OK.
Courtney Clark (25:08)
But here's here's why I say that. Because what often happens is we confuse goals and plans. A lot of what we call a goal is actually a plan. And you can tell the difference like this. Ready? If there's just one way to get there, if it's like
A to B, right? I'm gonna fill this out. And then I'm gonna do this. And then once that's done, this will happen. And that's a plan.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (25:39)
That's the plan.
Courtney Clark (25:39)
That's a plan. So for me, for example, I always thought I was gonna have a baby. And then I was diagnosed with cancer at age 26. Can't do that.
And I told myself, you know, it's fine. Like, you're young, you're 26, you can always foster, or you can mentor, you can be a really cool aunt, do a lot of volunteer work, maybe someday they'll let somebody with your health history adopt. And so I did some volunteer work and met a teenage boy and ultimately ⁓ adopted.
a teenager, and I also mentor, I do a ton of volunteer work. And so that is called when you take what you thought was your goal, but you realize it's just a plan. What I realized is my goal was not to have a baby, or even to be a mom. My actual goal was bigger. My actual goal.
is to leave a legacy. That's really what I want Brian. Like, I don't know how long I'm going to get on this planet. But I want to know that when I'm gone, I'm leaving a legacy.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (26:51)
Yep.
Courtney Clark (26:51)
And that is called supersizing your goal. So you take what you thought was your goal and maybe it's not achievable anymore, but you take that goal and you supersize it to the largest thing that it means, the biggest expression of it. And for me, that was leaving a legacy. And
So that supersize goal, that's a real goal. It's not a plan, right? And then that's step one. And then step two, you build parallel plans.
to reach your super-sized goal. A lot of different ways to get there. So for me, the way that looked, I adopted, I volunteer and I mentor and I've started two nonprofits and I've written four books. So this most recent book about this new research just came out. All of these are parallel plans to my super-sized goal.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (27:45)
to leave a legacy.
Courtney Clark (27:47)
Yes to leave a legacy. That's actually the reason that was the motivation behind the goal of the goal of have a baby. And so there's so many different ways you can think about it. But like, you know, somebody goes, Oh, I want to save $10,000. My goal is to save $10,000 this year. Money goal is super common.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (28:12)
Yeah.
Courtney Clark (28:12)
Okay, well the super size goal would be what? I'd probably say feel more financially secure. That's the super. So save $10,000 is one parallel plan.
but you could also cut back on spending. could control your, you could hire a financial advisor, right? There's lots of different ways. And then at the end of the year, what happens if you only save $9,500 in the bank, but you probably cut a bunch of spending more than $500.
And you hired a financial advisor. So like your investments look really good. So all told you actually did more than $10,000 if you just looked at that one path, you'd be like, ⁓ I'm a failure.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (29:00)
I wanna so I wanna pivot this then to look at let's talk about some productivity habits that are really common things that I hear people say and that we say and that kind of thing. And let's use those as examples. So one of the easiest examples is email inbox to zero. And it's true. I have a system. I can help you get to inbox to zero by the end of the session. You're at zero and we can maintain it at zero and I can teach you that skill and
It's an interesting pivot to say that goal is too small because it's not about the zero as much as it's about the like the feeling of being on top of things. The it's the feeling of not feeling like I let people down because I didn't miss it. Like I'm on it for me. Accountability is a thing like you asked and I did not forget you.
Courtney Clark (29:49)
inbox zero for you, right? That's I'd call that ⁓ a parallel plan, right? Rather than the bowl. So but but the super sized goal for you to have inbox zero and for me might be different because for you, it might be that feeling of peace, right? I can go to sleep at night knowing that there's not like something that I left hanging out there. And for me, yeah, it might be I know I didn't miss anything.
or for for me, it might be, I don't know the idea that, you know, like all my opportunities, all my all my chickens have gone home to roost, like what whatever it is, the the the greater meaning of it is different could be different for you and for me. I the way I think about
when you're trying to come up with like the super size goal, like what is this really about is actually, you know what it is for me in box zero and I love it in box zero. I love an inbox zero. For me in box zero is what makes me feel like a business owner like I'm handling my stuff. Yep, right. That's like when I do that, then I feel like I'm not
just like in a punch in a time that I feel like a leader. That's that's why I do it. I've never thought about it until we just are having this conversation. But that's what inbox zero does for me. So yeah.
the way the best way to find what your super size goal is, think in terms of taking ABC goals, and turning them into the IP goals. So ABC goals, that's achievement, behavior comparison, right? achievements, like I want to accomplish this or, know, win a prize or whatever. So like for me, I want to be a badass boss, like that's an achievement.
B is behavior habits, right? So that might be what it is for you, right? Start this stop this. So and then C is comparison. ⁓ someone else is doing this, I want to do it or you know, want to follow in my dad's footsteps. So ABC goals. ABC goals are fine. They're great goals. Most people's goals are ABC goals. They have gotten us the level of success we have today.
but they are not supersized goals. So they run the risk of maybe being planned. So turn those ABC goals into VIP goals, values, ideals, purpose. What values do you hold that led you to set that goal that you thought was a goal?
Right, what ideals do you hold that you think that this goal is going to allow you to live out? What purpose do you think your work has on this planet? And then once you start thinking of those VIP words for me, legacy, then that's your super sized goal.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (32:54)
Yeah. What do you do with that supersized goal? Is that, do you write that down somewhere? mean, this sounds like it, and you listening, you've probably seen this before because this screams vision board to me. Like that's what, when I think about VIP goals and bigger goals and that kind of thing, it's the vision board of what you want your life to be like and that, and you put these big sky high things on there. And then like you're saying, there's like,
10 different paths to get there, that kind of thing.
Courtney Clark (33:25)
Well, that's the key to right. It's not if we stop at the the big vision, then we're not building ourselves the strategy to necessarily get there. So you so yes, this super size goal, put it on a vision board, write it wherever you want to write it. Know that it's the red thread that has probably been weaving through your life already.
this is you may be saying this word for the first time you may be recognizing how this is influencing the goals that you've set the paths that you've taken over the years. And you might not have even known it but it was there. It was driving you right it's like that heartbeat. Yeah, that you always actually had. But now you can put words to it.
And now you be intentional, isn't it intentional? That's like the thing all the kids are saying, be intentional. Right now you can intentionally pursue it with these parallel plans. And I think it's really important to note also parallel plans are not backup.
former performer, a big beef with the word backup plans. I don't like it. It seemed right. It seems like, that's my safety school. but there in fact, there's actually really good research, maybe you've seen it that talks about how having a fallback plan might actually make you less successful. Because you're like, I don't need to do this, right? have something I can fall back on.
parallel plans, not the same as backup plans, because backup plans are taking you somewhere else somewhere different that you're like, well, I'd be okay to parallel plans, they're all going the same direction. Maybe you've got this one and you're like, boy, I really hope that this works. But if it doesn't,
I've got this and I've got this and that's all fine. Cause they're all going the same direction towards legacy or towards financial security. And maybe you're, maybe you're really leaning, having into one, or maybe you're deploying three or four at a time.
And that's root. that's step three of the shortcut, right? We set that parallel plan. We set that supersize goal. We build those parallel plans. And then step three is you just flex between the plans as needed. You just kind of move back and forth. We'll do take one of these. There's no favorite child, right? We love them all. Whatever gets us there works. ⁓
Brian Nelson - Palmer (36:02)
Yeah.
Courtney Clark (36:04)
And that to me is so exciting. Because that's closing that gap. You know, we talked about that gap between what we want, like we're we're good with adaptability. We're like, yes, can change. But when it comes right down to it, we're not actually doing it. This is how we close that gap. This is how we get to doing it by building this strategy.
Yeah, because it's not enough to just like feel like you're okay with change. We have to do something
Brian Nelson - Palmer (36:35)
Yeah. Flex between them. I like that. So zoom out. Bigger goal. Multiple paths. Flex between them.
Courtney Clark (36:43)
Yes, flex between them. And I know, yeah, and especially for leaders. So if you're listening, if you lead people, manage anyone, if you're a parent, I think that it's really important to pay attention. We found that while older generations reported being grittier, like just as a personality type,
But we also found that those older generations felt more comfortable going to another path when their old path wasn't available.
That was a really interesting dichotomy. But what we realized in questioning is that those older folks, they relied a lot on grit, older generations that were definitely taught they were hammered home that great, great grit. But because they've been around and lived a lot of life, they have already been in many situations where it doesn't turn out the way they planned. They had to pivot and it turned out okay. So they have more confidence in their
ability to find a new path.
younger generations reported the least confidence in their ability to find a new path. So as leaders, think about if you then know how to help them, you can help help them identify the super size goal, right? You have values as an organization or as a team, and then you help them, you show them what the strategy is of like building parallel plans, and then we got this, but then we could do this. And we've got this other option.
now they're not going to be as stuck when things don't turn out the way they plan. So it's not just about like motivating them with a fresh attitude. It's like bolstering that attitude with strategy and action steps. And you can teach them to actually be more adaptable by teaching them how to adapt.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (38:24)
Yep.
Yeah. You know, now that we we went down this really interesting path and like this was really it's really helpful, Courtney, to kind of see that the goal was too small. That was a great. I feel like you guys you slapped me there for that was like, it's too small.
I want to circle back and go back to all right. So in the very beginning, my my burning question that I had that I wanted to talk with you about, I want to get your thoughts on circling back to that now. Why smart people still have bad productivity habits and how to finally change them? What are what are your thoughts on that?
Courtney Clark (39:18)
well, I think smart people have bad productivity habits. Because I do think that smart people when you have been successful, it is really easy to believe what was to say like what got you here won't get you there. It's really easy to believe that your success is solely as a result of your hard work, your habits, right? I have set my whole life up for success. And that
is great. But maybe circumstances have changed. Maybe the tool maybe what you have at your disposal has changed. And so you haven't changed. And your strategies and your structures haven't changed. And you're like, but these should still be good.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (40:06)
Yeah.
so Courtney, I'm drawing an interesting comparison here because it's something that I've always called it and I love this example of what got me here and then you get into leadership and people look up to you and ask.
How did you get there? And you give them advice on how you got there. And that's, I feel like there's a really important lesson here because I am a big subscriber to learn. call it for me, I call it learning by committee. And what I mean is one person's advice isn't necessarily the right advice. It's advice. Like if they've been there, like if you're trying to get promoted,
or you're trying to get to the next level and you talk to the person above you about how they got there, that is some advice. So having nothing versus having that one is helpful. But then if you get two, three, four other perspectives and you learn by committee and then you can choose which of those is the right one for you, that makes a much better plan to get to the better spot. Whether that's
email inbox to zero or whether it's, you know, any of these productivity habits that you've been working on. If, if you have a productivity habit that isn't working, then ask more than what go for multiple perspectives on that thing so that you drive toward those multiple different solutions. And then you choose the one or two or three that you want to use.
But and so I say this there's there's two important takeaways that I hope you take from this. The first one is if you're giving advice, encourage people to go get more advice.
Look for the angles. Look for the different pieces.
Courtney Clark (41:55)
Well, and there's something really interesting about what you said there too, because it's nearly impossible to reverse engineer someone else's path. And the reasons for that are many, right? I'm a different person than you, my strengths and your strengths are different. You know, I started doing what I do this many years ago. So me telling somebody else, it's a different environment now.
and so somebody coming up as a leader would be like, well, how do I do this? Well, it was a little different. the other reason it's really hard to reverse engineer someone else's success or to give advice if you're the one being asked is there's something called peak end effect. So people tend to only remember the highs, the lows.
and the most recent thing that happened.
We are much better at predicting in fact the causes of our failures than we are the causes of our successes, often because the causes of our failures are a little more proximate. Like we kind of know like I did something and it bit the big one. I know what I did that caused that failure. We then we attribute our success and this is what you're talking about. We attribute our success to our habits, right? I built this great system I succeed.
be only because I have a great system and I worked really hard and I'm really smart and What what we are not as great at relaying is that long
slow climb to success. So peak end effect says we remember the highs, the lows, and then that most recent success or the most recent thing that happened. you tell people if I if somebody says, you know, Courtney, how did you get to be successful? I'm going to be able to say, well, this was the low but then this was the high. And I'm not so great at being like, well, here are the 1 million
I picked up the phone and made a phone call and here's just what the slog of my day looks like And so it's very it can be very hard to reverse engineer people success because we're not great reporters at it and we We are not great at predicting which of the pieces of the puzzle Actually made us successful But the answer is all of the pieces of the puzzle the habits
are part of it.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (44:21)
Yeah.
Courtney Clark (44:22)
Our choices, what we do, in my case, when you hit that brick wall, when you're up against an obstacle, the choices that you make, it's all a part of it.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (44:31)
Yeah. So I want to ask the the best question that I always love to kind of ask at the end of all these great discussions is okay. Now, what's the one thing that you tell the person listening to do this week? What's if they take if they only do one thing from this whole great conversation that we had, what do you hope that the person listening is going to do right now?
Courtney Clark (44:54)
I think the best thing that you can do is find your super sized goal. The super size goal. So even if you're not being called on to like change or adapt or anything right now, that super sized goal. That is what motivates you if the days are long or the clients are annoying, or the kids are screaming or the whatever like that is the North Star. Yeah, if you
can keep that in mind. There's not a lot you can't navigate. And when you are being called on to change something, if something is not successful, then knowing that super size goal, that's what gets you on that fresh path.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (45:39)
Yeah. I like that a lot. North Star, Super Size Goal. You know, it's funny, there's back in the archives of this show, I had another guest talk about North Star, and it was an interesting, this has come up multiple times. And it's funny because these concepts like finding your North Star, finding your big goal, they call them bags, big, hairy, audacious bulls.
Courtney Clark (46:03)
You heard!
Brian Nelson - Palmer (46:04)
You've heard all kinds of names for the stuff that we're talking about here. And it's interesting because it's helpful to hear it. It's the back to that learning by committee thing. I've heard this so many times in my professional life, in my adult life, and every time I hear it, it hits different.
Courtney Clark (46:22)
When people hear this, they're not like, my god, this makes no sense. I've never heard anything like this anymore. When right when when we get in a conversation about like, honestly, we've been over indexing on grit, and it's keeping us from adaptable. Everybody lights up and they're like, Wow, yeah, me too.
Yeah, I've been never giving up and it's kept me in jobs or relationships that weren't working long past their expiration date. And so most people get it. Yeah, it's the what to do next piece that I felt compelled to continue researching and add to the conversation.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (46:57)
Yeah.
Yep. I love that. Absolutely. Really good. I love the really good nuggets here. Like the learning by committee. I hope you're taking that away and the bigger goals and the multiple paths and the, and the don't not a fallback plan, but a different plan. Good stuff, Courtney. This is very cool. So I guess ultimately here to kind of bring us to a close Courtney, here's what I love. I love that you did all this research and that your bigger
super goal in the end brought you here to write these books and do this research so that we could have this conversation and talk about this stuff.
Courtney Clark (47:42)
Well, I think it's I think it is incredibly relevant to what you're talking about as well. Because like continuing to just bang your fist against a brick wall because perseverance, like that's nobody's idea of efficient. So if we can find the shortcut, if we can find the way around our obstacles, to maybe a bigger goal, right, that super size goal, instead of just continuing to say, but let me in because I worked hard for this.
I think that we're going to find that we've conserved our resources so we can spend them in a more valuable way.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (48:18)
for sure. I love that. For those folks that are wanna keep in touch with you or find you online or find out more about you, where's the best place for them to go?
Courtney Clark (48:27)
Go to Courtney Clark.com. You will find me there you can email me there. You can social media me there. And all of this research that we talked about today is found in my new book The Shortcut, which you can get on Amazon, Barnes and Noble target all your book places. To have a ton of time to read because you are so productive.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (48:46)
Love it.
Yes, absolutely do it. Read the book. I love it. And for you tuning in, think about someone in your life who struggles with this topic of beating their head against the wall of, or I mean, who came to mind when she said, like, put your head down, grit, like, because ⁓ my gosh, I immediately thought of one or two of my friends and
Courtney Clark (49:12)
Two thirds of people said they know someone who has so much grit that it's negatively impacting their life.
Brian Nelson - Palmer (49:19)
There it is. And for that person in your life, maybe it's a colleague or a friend, or even somebody you haven't talked to in a while, would you share this episode specifically with them? Because I know that Courtney and I would love to know that our conversation helped someone who needed to hear this. And we frankly, we'd love to be your excuse to reconnect or continue to connect with that person. So please do, please do send it over. And also if you want more,
productivity insights beyond just this podcast. My email subscribers get access to everything that I create. So come join that email list if you haven't already. And I love sharing productivity gladiator with you because together these productivity skills are going to change your life. That's a wrap.